Sorry me there forgot to log in, cleaned it up for 'ya below.
Animals are not sentient. A lion may have cognitive skills, they can plot a few moments ahead and in so doing ensnare their prey. But they do not philosophize...
I dunno Egan... sentient... I had to look it up because I wasn't sure of the context or meaning with which you used it, I am not sure philosophizing is within that definition but it's probably safe to assume 'somewhat' within. The problem is though, a lion does indeed plan ahead, and we may not recognize the philosophy of a lion but other lions surely do. He may wait days for prey he spotted 3 weeks or 3 months ago, he does not act on the spur of the moment always. In which regard look at the complusive behavior of humans. We portray a great deal of it ourselves, we are not immune to complusiveness. However, we are in our behaviors different from animals, that is obvious. Yet, we are very similar also.
The ability to philosophize, well I know some people who are capable but they are a minority. Most people live day to day existences, complaining as they go more often than not unfortunately. The really rich people around you Egan... a lot of them got their money from real estate acquired through migrating and warring ancestors, like a lion siezes his own territory. How is this? Your IRA helps you plan for the longterm yes, while the lion the elephant the bear and the tiger follow the more natural rythyms of the earth just like our ancestors did. They hunt in certain areas certain times of year, they migrate to other areas at certain times of year, some plan ahead for hibernation and mating season... etc etc much led by what we call instinct (which in humans also exists in form) but also much led by the elder animals of their 'tribes'. They establish their prides and pecking orders. All of this takes planning of some sort, and even acknowledges the recognition of an heirarchy among themselves. They do not recognize human society a good part of the time, that is a human thing. to a black bear in need, you are food just like he might be to you if you are hungry enough. Many, but not all, animals are teachable. Your dog for instance will remember in 3 months perhaps 3 years what you taught him last week, will your child? Maybe, about equal to the rate of your dog. More than anything Egan I think what truly has enabled us to raise ourselves above the animal kingdom is the fact the we walk upright and have thumbs. we are a very different species from all animals in that respect and also our tongues and vocal cords which enable us to enunciate. We do not have tails to swat the flies from our behinds.
Human beings have developed an elaborate society, we like to call ourselves civilized. But civilization, if anything, has taken thousands of years to evolve to the rules of behavior we recognize as appropriate today. Humans have not changed much physically, certainly not past what one could easily determine to be natural selection. You'll notice here and there, odd things make the news, that people often step outside of the bounds of 'appropriate' behavior. If your mother and/or your education did not teach you proper, even you would not be well mannered Egan. You would not be welcome in nice restaurants if you smelled and were atrociously dirty. People might call you an animal and with good reason. It happens everyday somewhere to someone. It is with the same understanding of 'appropiateness' we teach our dogs to heel and they willingly submit to remain happily well fed under our roofs as pets and friends. They are civilized domesticated animals who hate being left out hungry in the cold. Just like you but they have no thumbs nor have they bothered to dress. They do not read books. Humans were a lot like that once, but civilization has evolved.
Something
within us enables us in a way that other animals cannot replicate. As for our basic needs and desires... we are very much like animals. More than anything, man can easily be considered the most dangerous animal that walks this earth.
When I talk about chimps I refer to primates in particular, not fowl. Yes, there exists a multitude of animals which possess advanced forms of communication but I speak specifically about our cousins, the other primates. And yes cousins, whether you’re an evolutionist or an anti-evolutionist, they are our cousins, genetically speaking. With that said, it should be interesting to note that the DNA of chimpanzees and humans is more similar to one another than a chimpanzee’s and an orangutan’s, their neighbors.
Right. But chimps remain chimps still irregardless.
Why would God, a presumably incorporeal entity, possess opposable thumbs with which to write or otherwise manipulate tools with?
I don't know Egan, why do you have thumbs? But perhaps we reach here a stumbling block in your perception. The idea that God made man in his image refers to more than physical attributes. It refers also to thought processes and the spiritual dimension of our souls.
Moreover, how do you know this and can you verify it without the use of any written text? In the modern era, science students are told to prove a thing for themselves rather than simply trust a book (scripture).
In the modern era, Jesus gave sight to the blind, walked on water, rose from the dead. Choosing whether or not to believe that is roughly equivalent to asking someone to believe we are decended from chimpanzees I suppose. However, there were many witnesses to Jesus whereas there are no witnesses or valid proofs of evolution. So evolution is a bit handicapped here, we have to use reason, however unreasonable, to enable the idea.
Faith on the other hand, often requires us to relenquish our reason and the understanding we have of ourselves and this life. God is truly outside the bounds of our reason. We have merely what is called a worms-eye view of the universe, Egan. Sad but true. We really know so little and yet we attempt to reason everything.
Evolution is not an wholly inreasonable idea. But humans are capable of rationalizing the most irrational things because of their oft misued ability to reason. Reason is what enables someone to murder 50 children in a schoolyard even though it may not be the very best rationale from your or mine own standpoint.
The testimonies of Christians who have experienced the presence of God and many wonderful things therein are plentiful on the internet. You do not really need me to delve deeply into this here. One thing I do tell people is that such experiences are very difficult to describe in human terms, because there are no truly human equivalents and thus no language to properly express it. Civilization has not evolved that far. Yet I do know for sure that God exists, even Jesus and the holy spirit because of my experiences, not because of what I read in the bible. I do enjoy the fact very much that the bible confirms my experiences however. I actually read the bible as an adult after being saved not vice versa. I don't recommend that, it was pretty scary. Read the bible, please.
Thus, without the written word we are able to prove – to ourselves – the existence of gravity, inertia, and so on. And, if you cannot prove it using this method, it is still just a theory not a proven fact. So I ask, using the proscribed method above, please kindly prove that your god appears in the likeness of a (wo)man, equipped, unnecessarily, with limbs, opposable thumbs, facial hair, eyelashes and all the rest.
I cannot prove that beyond the life of Jesus, Egan. No one ever will. God is spirit. My experiences never enabled me to see him, in human form or any other. Yet I heard his voice, I know his spirit, and I am grateful for the way he has led me through some very difficult times. Over a course of many years I have learned to trust him implicitely, yet, I have never seen him with my eyes. If there were a way to truly communicate the power of his presence surely I would. Made in his image by the way.... is only his image... like a photo is to the real flower. We as humans do not come close to the enormous presence that he is, we are like a grain of sand on a beach next to him just like the bible says. Seek and ye shall find is the best advice I can give here.
Some scientists have rationalized the existence of ghosts as potentially being some sort of after image, an imprint of sorts which technically is neither the individual nor their “soul”, rather, something akin to a photograph, remnants of their former presence, footprints of a sort.
I have seen them look like that, like movies being played out repeatedly, very strange, also quite uncommon from my experience. There is a branch of physics which relies on the fact that energy (in this case, human energy, soul/spirit) is never completely lost, it simply changes form. It's also interesting that many physicists move to side of believers after many years of study. However, this does not explain the phenonema of a good baptist lady who lives a half mile from me up the road here, who was literally lifted up and tossed out of her bed by an unseen force over the winter. Neither does it explain the other numerous odd events in that locally reknowned haunted house.
I’d categorize phenomenon such as ghosts and other supernatural occurrences (UFO’s being another perfect example here) as wholly separate from religion. They’re apples and oranges.
I would agree with you here Egan. Religion is often the opiate of the believing masses.
Indeed, some of the most profound works of art have come from the minds of the non-religious, claiming their muse came from their inner self rather than their alleged god.
Such as? We run the risk of personal opinion here, always remembering that beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
I think the problem most Christians in particular face when even so much as thinking about what it must be like to be non-religious is that, as you describe, it seems to dull and boring, a life where one focuses only on eating and surviving - and why even have morals in such a realm if “nothing matters”? But religion does not (should not) dictate morals. Morals are a human invention.
Patterned after the 10 commandments I would remind you. prior to which morals as we know them were quite different. Which is even true today depending on where you go so I will skip that altogether.
As for imagination, the world is what you make of it, regardless of how you believe we all got here. Your imagination and your religious beliefs are unrelated affairs, though I have a sneaking suspicion most people who are religious have chosen that path in life because it appeals to the fantasist within them. I can see the vast cosmos, and indeed our very existence, as utterly fascinating and compelling with or without so much as even considering a god or pantheon of gods or what happens after we die.
It's interesting that so many well known athiests have spent their last days in insane asylums isn't it?
From a hunter gatherer standpoint, the only non-religious civilizations which have ever existened is that of Neanderthals – but then, they weren’t humans, rather, another form a sentient (primate) life which your bible, peculiarly, does not explain.
Personal opinion really, neither of us have any way of actually knowing the spiritual beliefs of neanderthals or who they were to God... and I do not know enough about them to comment either. For me however, a few old skeletons are more than just a little bit random. It would impress me more if archeolgists were constantly running into them but they don't. Perhaps it's just an odd inbred misaligned lineage of someone somewhere. Did you see that news story last year about the family in eastern europe or was it Turkey, anyway they walk on their hands, pretty much the whole family.
