I'm now more inclined to to think that my problems stem more from a copper toxicity problem than a mercury problem. I seem to react badly to zinc (increasing of symptoms) and yet the white spots on my finger nails indicate a zinc deficiency. There are many other symptoms I have that I have been able to relate to copper, mainly mental problems like bad mood swings, but other elmination symptoms like rashes. I think I'm really onto something here!

So in this case apparenlty I have to go easy on zinc and other copper antagonists like selenium and manganese. This all makes sense cause apparently taurine is real good for copper elimination and I have just started taking taurine with magnesium with excellent results! I also find that beer, which is high in copper, gives me a bad reaction the day after I have moderate amounts of it.

I wonder if algin binds with copper as well?

If you do have copper poisoning molybdenum is the key supplement. It bonds with copper and reduces the copper toxicity. I just started taking it the other day and I'm noticing improvement already.

I know that I have some mercury poisoning and I'm very suspicious of copper poisoning. Both zinc and milk thistle made me feel much worse. When I increased the dose on the zinc from 50 to 100 mg I felt ever worse. So I can relate to you a lot on this one.

Maybe you should buy some molybdenum, it's hard to find by the way.

Oh yeah, you might want to cut the selenium. It might increase copper uptake, Russ is looking for more info on this.

thanks mate, I have actually got a supplement with molybdenum in it, but it also has zinc and manganese in it. Its pretty much the only supplement I can find with a good amount of molybdenum in it so I might give it a go (100mcg). I has 15 mg of zinc citrate also. I've taken it before and it seems to be ok, I took one today and so far feel alright.

also, do you get any problems with your skin? I get real oily skin on occasions around my facial area which leads to acne at times. I useta get acne real bad, its ok now tho. Apparently excess copper causes these symptoms too?

Not really for me. I get itchy, burning skin from bad drug reactions though (especially alcohol).

I'm dealing with a suspected copper situation too....I highly recommend Ann Louise Gittleman's Why am I always so tired ? It's about copper poisoning. It's only a tiny book, but a good read since most stuff about metal poisoning on the net is about mercury. There is only one thing I don't agree with her about, and that is recommending alpha lipoic acid. ALA actually prevents bilirary exrection of copper, so this is the only flaw in the book I need to point out.

I've always had oily skin also, with acne breakouts. Now that I'm copper detoxing my skin has actually turned brown/orange. It looks as if I have a deep tan. I had my liver checked out because I thought it was jaundice, but everything was fine. Then I frequently read that copper increases pigmentation. I used to be white looking, but now that I'm mobilizing copper stores from tissue, it has had an effect on my skin <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Ann (no, I'm not the above mentioned author <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />)

thanks for your help Ann, I've actually taken ALA before and it made me very sick so I'm steering clear of it. I must say since I started taking the supplement with zinc and molybdenum in it yesterday I feel great! most symptoms have been dulled significantly! Mayb copper is more of my problem.. O and i used to be sensitive to alcohol too, now I can handle it quite well, except beer that increases my symptoms about 10 fold the day after I have it.

I have the exact same alcohol sensativity. One drink makes me feel terrible. I get this really nasty irratible feeling.

Thought I'd provide some info in connection with the copper theory. There are several supplements which can lower copper stores: L-methionine and cysteine bind with copper. Zinc and iron prevents copper uptake in colon. Large doses of vitamin C also lowers body content, as does molybdenum. Cysteine binds with zinc to, so these must be taken at seperate occations. Iron and vitamin C prevents zinc uptake and must also be taken at a different times. Phytic acid in grain products and lesser amount in vegetables, prevent zinc uptake. The most beneficial is to take zinc supplements with animal protein or if tolerated on an empty stomach. Zinc is supposedly most absorbed when taken in the evening.

Stay clear of copper food such as black tea, meat liver, nuts, legumes, bran, sea food, mushrooms, cocoa and beer. Eat plentiful of red and white meat with limited amount of grain products and sugar as these lower zinc uptake. Vegetables and fruit is ok (PS I think I read somewhere that cherries, radishes and advocado contains high copper). Be aware that old piping can contribute significantly to copper poisoning from water. For ladies, check all make-up products as bronzers and some brown lipsticks contain this metal. Also red-brown hair colouring contains copper......not so good to supply copper so close to the brain I would think <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />. Estrogen is very closely connected to copper. High estrogen means high copper. If one suspects copper poisoning it is best to avoid the pill (PS Magnesium and zinc supposedly increase the body's progesterone so could be worth considering). Calcium prevents copper elimination so milk products are best avoided. Vitamin E and selenium also increase copper absorption and are best avoided.

When detoxing copper, symptoms can be aggravated especially the typical copper symptoms; mind-racing and anxiety/panick attacks. If this happens, it is best to lower supplements and focus on a zinc friendly diet before embarking on the supplement regime once again.

Here are a couple of good links: http://www.arltma.com/CuIntroDoc.htm
http://www.healingedge.net/store/page190.html

Ann <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

This is interesting. I do have a lot of copper symptoms (but they also overlap with mercury symptoms) and I do eat some high copper foods, but don't seem to show a reaction to them.

For instance, I ate 4 oz of beef liver (grassfed organic) yesterday, which has like 500% RDA of copper, and I also ate brazil nuts yesterday which are high in copper and very high in selenium, but I really don't feel any different after eating such high copper foods.

I'm guessing this means that copper isn't my problem or could symptoms take longer than 24 hours to kick in?

Ann, what do u think I should have for breakfast every morning that contains minimal fiber? the thing is that its good to keep up bowel movements when your detoxing but zinc is highly excreted on a high fibre diet. I currently take algin and another fibre supplement in the mornings and throughout the day. Do you think algin binds to zinc as well? Lately I have been expereincing day of very heavy up and down anxiety and stress that comes on at any time. Its so weird, its like mood swings, one minute I feel alright the next I'm get real stressed and display symptoms like sweating and lack of concentration which all in all is very embarrassing and I end up getting depressed about it. It is a vicious cycle I wish there was something I could take or avoid taking every morning that would prevent it from happening and allow me to get thru a normal day relaxed and calm. The weird thing is I do get days or periods during days when I feel completely calm and confident with what I'm doing.

Also in the mornings i take a number of other supplements recomended by my naturopath which have helped extremely in order to get me feeling normal again, but its just these other weird anxiety attacks, accompanied by other depressing symptoms, that are of primary concern. Do you think these anxiety attacks are related to copper?

I thought that the algin and fibre was helping me , and they probably have, but I also have noticed an increase in anxiety symptoms after taking them so mayb the algin is decreasing the absorbtion of zinc and other minerals I need? All i know is that I am mercury toxic but I think copper toxic overlaps it too.

Ya, after thinking about it, most amalgams are High Copper Amalgams nowdays (I think) so many of us probably do have excessive copper levels as well.

If you are worried about Algin and fiber preventing your nutrients from being absorbed, then take algin as far away from food as possible, the best time would be right before bed. I am concerned with this as I get all my minerals and vitamins from food, so I try to space algin away from my meals as far as possible.

Hi Joey

Your description of alternating highs and lows are what I experinced greatly in the beginning of copper detoxing. Now, just three weeks later, things have calmed down because I'm finally figuring out what I'm doing wrong and right and also what happens naturally during the course of this detox. I thought I'd write some experince to date, although I think I'm still busy learning......Yes, I do feel copper greatly contributes to anxiety and the dreaded panick attacks. It stimulates the brain too much preventing us from being able to talk reason to ourselves and it makes us loose control, or at least give us the terrible feeling of this. If copper-poisoning is your problem in additon to mercury, it is very important for the real Joey, the one who is naturally calm and collected, to take control, to get in there and tell your brain that you are now feeling copper effects, that this is NOT you, and actively try to help your brain to slow down whilst it is being bombarded by excitory messengers. A week ago I was doing really well with the copper detoxing, but then I borrowed play station kit and played for hours on end the whole week-end. In additon I started playing trance music which I haven't been able to listen to for ages because of the monotone, fast hard beats. Well, this didn't in the end go down to well. Copper causes mind-racing and the additon of the above activities stimulated my brain way past its limit. So try to limit TV watching and such so that your brain "only" has to deal with the stress from copper symptoms which could rise while copper is being released from its stores.

In the beginning I started with high amounts of zinc supplements. I think it was 60 mg per day divided into three doses. This was a BIG mistake. The anxiety was torture, I thought I was going crazy. Now I'm taking 20 mg per day divided into four doses and this is working very well. Since dosing various tremendously from person to person, my point is that zinc is a very powerful mineral and to be able to continue with detoxing without having the feeling of going crazy, it's best to do it as comfortable as possible. Small doses several times per day perhaps.

I also tried a molybdenum supplement in the beginning. This gave me terrible panick attacks. M is a metal and I've been told by a friend who is mercury chelating that M has a very similar structure to mercury and some may therefore get very bad reactions to it. So I stopped it, and things did very much improve.

I started taking a choline and inositol supplement as I have liver problems and suprisingly enough this supplement actually helped reduce anxiety, so thought I'd give it a mention.

Magnesium is supposed to be very calming, but for me in high doses it gives me anxiety. So I've had to divide a capsule into three and this started to give the desired effect. I know Mag. lowers blood pressure and it possibly lowered it too much in addition to being too high a dose for my ailing kidneys which then can lead to a build up and poisoning symptoms.

If you suspect you're low on zinc, you could potentially be low on important fatty acids. I've tried suppelementing with omega 3 many a time before embarking on the copper detoxing, but I always got more anxiety from it. Now I can take it and I'm completely fine. You actually need zinc to be able to utilize the positive effects of essential oils. Lack of good oils in the brain can create all kinds of mental symptoms including anxiety, so perhaps you could start with low doses of good oils after a couple of weeks with copper detoxing......

Red meat also increased my anxiety in the very beginning. So this too had to be cut down to small portions, but eaten at every meal. I also take a very small amount of folic acid with meat meals, about 40mcg, to prevent a build up of homocysteine which can affect brain function and create anxiety.

About the fiber. I decided to cut out the bran fiber I was taking. It gave me a very good feeling that I was detoxing my gut with this healthy fiber, but I noticed that my anxiety increased soon after eating it. It does contain high levels of copper and simultanously reduces zinc absorption, so I felt best to stop this. Instead I start my morning with two glasses of freshly made vegetable juice which also like bran fiber contains phytic acid, but in lower amounts (celery I think contains very much phytic acid so is best to avoid). With the breakfast I eat a few slices of luch red meat. Vegetables are also included in my dinner meal, but no carbs such as rice or pasta which readuce zinc absorption. Also I found the magnesium and high doses of buffered vitamin C (the acid C can acutally cause anxiety) keeps my bowels loose, thus avoiding the dreaded constipation and a build of toxins.

This is what I'm supplementing with and is not causing increased anxiety: L-methionine, zinc, folic acid, N-acetyl-cysteine, very large doses of buffered vitamin C (small doses of C strangely enough gives me anxiety), amino acids, omega 3, just a tiny dose of iron with dinner meal, magnesium and a inositol/choline supplement. All these except vitamin C, are taken in very small doses several times per day. I have stopped milk products (except butter) and allow myself two slices of white bread (white to avoid the copper and phytic acid) in the evening, but with slices of red luch meat on top. I've stopped olive, soya and sunflower oil for cooking as olives, soya and seeds contain very high copper and I'm afraid this also means the oils do to. Instead I fry meat in some butter.

About algin and zinc, I really don't know as I've never tried Algin so know nothing about it. Perhaps Russ can give you an answer.
Phew, this is a lot to read, but hopefully it can give you some ideas, who knows?

Ann

This is certainly a reason why I prepare all my grains properly remove all of the phytic acid. All that is required to removed phytic acid is soaking your grains overnight in a slightly acidic solution (you can add a bit of yogurt, lemon juice, or vinegar) and then cook the grains like normal after they have been soaking for ~12 hours. You can do this with rice, oats, or any grain.

Another way to remove phytic acid is by fermenting grains, and sourdough bread shouldn't have any phytic acid due to the bacterial fermentation.

Most traditional cultures did soak there grains overnight before they made porridges and ate sourdough bread, which made the minerals much more available to the body. Porridges also cook much much faster after soaking overnight.

Also, if you sprout or soak nuts in a brine it will remove the phytic acid.

If you do this you can still enjoy grains and they will have better ratios of copper to available zinc.

Wow, gdawson, I didn't know this. I did a very quick net search and found several places that 7 hours is the limited time needed. Here's some more info:

"Soak ‘em. As little as 7 hours of soaking any gluten containing grains like oats, barley, wheat or rye in acidulated (acid containing) water improves their nutritional content and destroys phytic acid. Cover one cup of whole or cracked grain with an equal volume of water, and add about two tablespoons of acid to the water. Any live culture yogurt, buttermilk, kefir, or whey is preferable, or use a tbs. of lemon juice (vinegar in pinch) per cup. Let them sit in a room temperature spot overnight-at least 7 hours before you plan to eat them. Cover with a clean towel to avoid any unwanted visitors. (Whole rice and whole millet contain no gluten so soaking isn’t as important for them, if they are gently steamed or simmered for about 2 hours it reduces their phytic acid content.) It’s that easy to improve their nutrition. So, one you wake up in the morning, and look at the bowl of puffy, swollen grains, now so much more nutritious then they once were-look up on the shelf at that box of cereal, and back down-these sure ain’t Wheaties! You want me to eat THAT for breakfast??? I eyed them like that myself, when I first tried them-quite unconvinced that I’d ever be able to choke them down. Boy, was I surprised…"

Thanks again, Ann

Question for Anon: Are you sure about the molybdenum? I read molybdenum is an absolute essential for a "non tramatic" copper treatment because it reduces the toxicity of copper.

thanks heaps for your help Ann, I actually didn't take any supplements at all today and noticed a huge difference when I was at work, was calm and collected for nearly the whole time. So obviously i have been trying to detox too quickly and taking far too many supplements.

Out of the supplements you said you take I also take most, the omega 3 I take as cod liver oil which i find is good, what do u take, fish oil? I also take a vitamin B complex, do you think this is wise?

Hi Joey

It's good to hear you've had a great day! I've always been pushing too high doses also, impatient to get well. But finally I've realised metal detoxing doesn't work this way....Now with low dosing, I know I'm detoxing, but avoid the highs and lows. My mind and body aren't sending out alarming "slow down" signals and I don't have to stop the treatment because I've over-dosed......yet again. PS. I buy empty capsules from the pharmacist and divide my supplements into these in small doses in the morning, ready for the rest of the day.

About the B's, I'm not really sure. Sometimes I read that B's are "essential for copper utilization." and "to get an adequate amount of copper into their cells". Then other times I read B's are good to prevent copper poisoning. Personally I get anxiety from them no matter how small a dose. I've suspected the B12 which can potentially methylate (turn metals into an even more toxic form), and also that they support copper metabolism, but I'm not sure. Maybe you could take just the B's for one or two days and no other supplements and see how you react to a small dose?

The omega-3 oil I'm taking is from fishconcentration (not sure this is the correct English word) and includes a touch of vitamin E and vitamin C. Cod liver oil has a tendency to contain metals, but you've probably checked with the manufacturer????

Ann

I very much agree. Mercury detox is a lifestyle, not a sprint.

As far as B's, B12 is a balancing act. If you get too much, you methylate mercury. Get too little and you feel horrible because homocysteine accumulates leading to heart issues and cholesterol problems.

With omega-3, you might want to try Fax Seed Oil as an alternative.

Cheers.

thanks russ, what do you think about the whole algin thing tho, should I back off it if I have suspected copper toxicity. At the moment I really think copper is more the issue than mercury, but they do overlap meaning what works with copper toxicity mightn't work with mercury.

Ann, about the inositol/choline supplement you take, its not in the form of lecithin is it? I know lecithin contains these two nutrients, but isn't it derived from soy meaning it contains copper? I do think I nead a supplement with inositol/choline as my concentration when I'm trying to study is still fairly poor and still feels like my mind is in a fog.

It isn't a lechitin as such, as it contains other liver supporting stuff. But is as you say, the choline and inositol are derived from soya according to the manufacturer. It says to take 2 caps, per day, but this is why I'm only taking 1/2 per day. I've tried to locate choline and inositol without soya, but haven't found yet. Maybe it's not worth it for you to try choline/inositol in the beginning while you are still trying to figure out supplements and wanto confirm that you have copper poisoning???

Ann

Joey,

I honestly don't know about the interaction between algin and copper. I will say if you're sure algin is making you feel bad, try going off it and see what happens and how you feel.

Please let me know what the result is.

Thanks.

thanks guys. I'm thinking about taking methionine also to help my liver in the detoxification process. Is this a good idea for me since i have mercury as well?

I had a blood test done earlier this week, the doctor specifically wrote on the test to make sure and test for copper. Do you think it will show up?

If you want to liver detox, I would recommend using Milk Thistle.

Methionine contains sulphur and can lead (through a short process) to the formation of methyl-donors. This will act as a mercury chelator and although can help with detox, it may be harsh.

If you do a liver detox, start slow. It can be rough.