It is hard to stay exactly on topic sometimes. It's normal, I think, for discussions to branch out. Therefore, Russ, I am requesting your permission to talk about secular circumcision.

Second, I was quite pleased to hear what you said about computer programmers being useless unless they were also self-trained and had inititive. I have a child in just that category - everything he knows he trained himself, and though he has much to learn, he wants to also learn programming thru self-instruction from a book. He is hell-bent to learn all he can on his own. I am glad that you appreciate initiative in people - because so many employers out there want to see a certificate from a school, and that is the only thing they look at and all they care about.

It is like being a fabulous cook, totally self-trained, but nobody will give you a job as a chef because you don't have the formal credentials. Pathetic situation.