I am against abortion.

I would like to know the opinions and support for those opinions as to whether there is any time that termination of a pregnancy should be the course of action.

Although the loss of a child is extremely regrettable, is there a condition (medical or other) wherein the termination of the pregnancy would be considered the right course of action?

This is tough. I know there are some very extreme situations and though I'd still not support abortion because of them, they are at least a little more understood as to why somebody might, in desperation, go through with this.

E.g.

Risk of dying if Mother continues with pregnancy.
Conception the result of rape/incest.
Mother told unborn child will be born with EXTREME handicap/deformity.
Poverty situations with no option for adoption.

I have also heard of outcomes that have defied the dire "forcasts" given. Perhaps via prayer/blessing and/or simply mistaken disagnosis etc.

However, we know this does not always happen and there are cases of parents with extreme handicapped children and their lives become a complete sacrifice to that child. We know also that people can and have died in pregnancy.

However, I believe that no matter the circumstance, the child is a human being, a gift, with a living soul. I do not believe that anybody has the right to take an innocent human life.

If it's done for selfish reasons? The sin is clearly emphasized. If it is done from a desperate and unsound mind because of EXTREME circumstances? I believe the sin maybe mitigated! As a Christian, I believe we have an almighty, understanding and merciful God who is perfectly aware of the intent, the circumstance and everything else.

However, I do not believe this God would support the killing of the unborn under any circumstances. As a Christian and as a human being myself? I simply cannot consider it an "option".

I support the protection of the unborn under ALL circumstances and the protection and support of the Mother carrying the child, especially if she is living in difficult or even desperate circumstances.

This is one that I would have to support. That, of course, would depend on the amount of risk and I am not qualified to make that determination. It would have to rest in the hands of the woman's doctor.
Since the death of the mother would very likely result in the death of the child, it seems to be less bad to have the child aborted and save the mother.
This I can't abide. The child is not responsible for the actions of the father, so why kill the child in these cases.
Difficult decision indeed. However, if you believe that God puts difficulties in your life for a reason then shouldn't your decision be to keep the child? I have to agree with you even though I have not been tried in this extreme situation.
I have never heard of any situation where a child could not be adopted or at least become a foster child of the state. In our country, the more liberal states allow a child to be anonymously dropped off at a hospital. Our "Bible Belt" states have steadfastly opposed this and want the mother who abandons her child to be prosecuted. Strangely, many of our fundamentalist denominations have pressured their representatives to enact laws that punish those mothers. Consequently, in those states, babies get left in trash bins to die because the mothers are afraid. Sad.

Sin is sin and all sin is equal. Asking for forgiveness as a believer in Christ removes the sin.


You and I mostly agree on this. I am opposed to abortion but support methods to minimize the chance of unwanted pregnancy. Comprehensive sex education and easy access to pregnancy prevention devices do better at this than abstinence only education. However, that is a different subject.

I would not like to be in such a position to make this decision, but I would also not like to face God with blood on my hands (so to speak). It might be better to accept the risks and possible fate in dying, even if it means the child may die also, than to make the decision to kill the unborn child.

To die is not to sin. To kill another, is.



I agree.



If the first part of your statement is so, then the jabs at fundamentalists is uncalled for. Clearly, the options of adoption/fostering are available for Mothers, rather dumping the life they have given birth to!

To place blame on fundamentlists for Mothers dumping their children in the trash is just wrong. There are places, options and support available to the Mother, other than the trashcan. There needs indeed to be some responsibility on behalf of the Mother towards her child!



I agree. Sacrifices/sufferings in this life can be a means and a ways to walk the narrow and often difficult road to Heaven. The way of the Cross. Jesus made the ultimate sacrifice for us. It is often through such that a person can gain much spiritually if they walk through it with Christ.



Yet earlier you said:

"Since the death of the mother would very likely result in the death of the child, it seems to be less bad to have the child aborted and save the mother."

Clearly, you are also aware that the seriousness of an action "can" be mitigated by exceptional/desperate circumstances. That is for God to judge the heart and intentions. Such sins sincerely repented of to a loving God are forgiven. Whether the initial intention was selfish, or whether the person was uninformed, desperate and living under a possible death sentence etc.



The sexual act is a gift from God designed towards the outcome of the conception of a human being. To share and teach the Christian alternatives to pre-marital sex, and artificial contraception, particularly the youth, is neither unrealistic nor old fashioned and works! Purity does not become outdated, no matter what the voice of the age is to the contrary.

The soul is most important.

It is likely that the baby would also die in these cases. What would be the use in dying with the child?


The blame should not rest upon them completely but the element of fear is put in place partially by the influence of them on the local government. I live in a liberal state and the conservative and fundamentalist elements have countered the abortionists by providing help with adoption services and prenatal care.

My brother lives in a southern state where an abortion is nearly impossible to get. He says that the help with adoption and unwed mothers is very rare and discouraged by the local conservatives. His daughter became pregnant and all he heard from most of his church members was judgment about his lack of supervision and what a bad daughter he had. I had her come live with me until she had her son and he was adopted, with the help of our friends at the Life Center.

The spirit of fear can be quite powerful.


I was pointing out that if it is sin then it is sin. A man stealing a loaf of bread is still stealing. One of the reasons that farmers in Israel had to leave part of their crop in the fields was so that the poor could glean that food and not have to steal to stay alive. It prevented sinning out of need. Right clever, I think.

Yes it is but reality should be considered also. Purity should be emphasized but prevention needs to be included. We teach drivers the techniques to keep out of crashes but we also teach them how to use safety belts in case they fail to use the good techniques they were taught.

Not everyone will remain pure...that is a fact. If they are not taught to be safe then the consequences can be dire. Some of the more conservative elements in the US have actually stood against teaching birth control because they think that the mother deserves to go through pregnancy if she decides to have sex. To me, that's like saying that the driver shouldn't be taught how to use safety belts because he deserves to get injured if he doesn't follow the safe driving techniques he was taught.

Sorry, but that seems a bit less than Christian to me.

I see it from your perspective and I'd have once possibly said the same. However, again what you're talking about is still murder.

Even if the "murder" is done in the hopes of saving one life. It is still the deliberate act of killing another. Dying is not a sin. Killing another is. Only God has the right to take life!



I'm very glad to hear that abortion is nearly impossible to get. Praise God! I'm not pro murder of a child at any stage of their life for whatever reason.

I think it is good to encourage mothers to bring up and take care of their own children and to try and discourage them from giving them up if possible.

However, there must also be support and options in place for the Mothers in desperate/dire circumstances and/or the Mothers who themselves maybe near enough to a child. That is disappointing to hear that there isn't.

I'm sorry to hear about the judgemental comments! That is shameful and there are people like this everywhere! But this is hardly the case with all Christians (fundamentalists included). Perhaps you ought to check out the missions/organisations around the world actively helping their fellow man.

It's a credit to you that you opened your doors to this young woman. Just as Christ would have done!



Yes it can. And the spirit of lies and compromise is also.



Yes that's right. But the knowledge, intent and situation is not ignored by an all-knowing God either.



Yes, reality is that people fall out of weakness/temptation or rebel. But God has given us the grace and means to rise above such if we choose to follow Him.

Contraception is the deliberate frustration/interruption of the natural consequence of conception. S*x therefore is in isolation with both partners deliberating closing off the outcome/purpose artifically. God created the sexual act to be shared in the sacred bonds of marriage and to allow for the possibility of new life to come from it.

Abstainance isn't a dirty word. Nor is this unrealistic, but again people can choose to disregard if they wish.

You judge my opinion as being unchristian. Perhaps you would like to take a quote from the bible and show me where I'm erring in this belief? So I'll understand where I've gone wrong in regards to God's purpose for sex.

Yes it is. I have no way to reconcile my position with this truth. An example of my position would be if a child is drowning and the mother knew that jumping in the water would almost surely result in both their deaths, would her choice to stay on shore be considered a sin? Not the best analogy, I know.

Unless He tells one of His followers to do it.

I am happy for the restrictions on abortion also. I am unhappy that there aren't more help organizations in those states, like there are in my state.

It is very situational. My niece couldn't have handled a child very well and the couple that she gave him up to were very happy. A blessing all round I think.
Song of Solomon shows that the sexual act is more than just for creating life. If that was all it was for, then my wife and I should not have sex since she can no longer become pregnant. I don't think God is restricting us in that manner.

It is neither a dirty word nor unrealistic, I agree. It should be the centerpiece of any sex education curriculum but not the only piece.

Despite the fact that God considers any sin to be as bad as another, we still think that murder is worse than fornication. The best way to minimize abortion is to prevent pregnancy as much as possible.

I disagree with your position with regards to birth control. I am not saying your opinion is unChristian.

What verses in the Bible support your position that people should never use birth control?
What verses in the Bible say that the only reason for sex is to make babies?

This is a situation that maybe beyond much control (especially if the Mother cannot swim properly and there are no other options) and one in a state of panic/distress can sometimes remain frozen and not knowing what to do. This is more "accident" related. However, abortion differs from this in the respect it is premeditated/determined and directly performed by the hands of the abortionist. The act of abortion is horrific.



That's great. This is why adoption is wonderful. Many are those who cannot have children and are often crying out to have them. What a gift!



Absolutely, the sexual act is also to be shared between a married couple for enjoyment/bonding also. I'm sorry I did not make myself more clear and mention that as well. But if you read this part of my quote again:



I did mention the sexual act as "sharing" but also leaving open the possibility of life to come as a result (If one can still have children).

Those that have gone past the age of having children or cannot have children for other reasons should not be exempt from enjoying sex with their married partner! But should rather continue if it's enjoyed.



What verses in the bible indicate we should? Since this is something mankind created - is it backed up by the bible in anyway?

I already made myself clearer earlier in regards to the reason for sex. I think we at least agree on that part.

We do not agree on the birth control side of things obviously. However, this was not the subject of this thread and I'm doubtful if either of us would ever come to a resolution anyway.

But indeed, I'm all for any programme that emphasizes God's intention for sex and especially for the young who need direction and why it is important to respect their bodies and other people's. There is indeed a reason and a very noble one!

We all have the choice to rebel. Protection from pregnancy and STD"s/AIDS as one continues to have pre-marital sex is handing out a false sense of security/protection/freedom where one "may" manage to escape the consequences of their sin/actions, but in doing so, will likely never wake up to it or think twice. The person may indeed consider themselves "free" when sadly, spiritually they maybe dying!

To me, that is a far bigger disaster! And a spiritual one.

Satan would happily support those who pat people on the back and hand out contraception, as they walk with their "safety belts" on the merry road to Hell. If it gives them the means and ways to keep their sinful lifestyle going without "interruption"? He will "hopefully in his eyes" win more souls.

Whilst God's plan for our lives and sex is so often scoffed and sneered at by a world who has more "realistic" solutions. The physical body and pleasures are to be preserved at all costs from interruption and consequences, whilst the soul is barely taken into consideration.

I agree that the act of abortion is horrific. We will have to disagree on whether the mother should try and save herself.

What verses in the Bible indicate that we should develop automobiles, ice cream, or heart surgery? Because the Bible doesn't say we should develop these things, was it wrong to develop them?

Aren't there specific requirements to be good stewards of what God has given us? How can we be good stewards of our financial assets if we continue to have children until we can no longer feed them?

I agree that sex is partly for procreation. However, I didn't see you support that with Bible verses. Furthermore, you didn't provide Biblical support for your contention that we shouldn't prevent pregnancy while retaining sexual relations with our spouses.

Maybe not but exploring our reasons for our position will help in understanding each other.

Then you would support the outlawing of all forms of contraception?
That way the people who choose to have sex outside of marriage can suffer the consequences of AIDS, HERPES and other STD's.

Whereas the salvation of the soul should be preserved at all costs?