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I can't remember where, but, I have read that it is almost impossible to recover from mercury poisoning if you are a vegetarian. I do seem to do better as a vegetarian, but do not want to compromise my ability to get well. Does anyone know if it is better to eat meat/dairy products? (I am talking about meat and dairy without added hormones and/or antibiotics).
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Anonymous
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I have heard this aswell, but I'm not sure what to make of it. For us not to get better as vegetarians would have to mean there is something in meat and dairy that we can't get from vegetables and fruits. Also herbs etc can be used to remove the mercury from our organs and then algin to bind to it, so I'm not sure where meat and dairy come in.
The only thing that is in animal products that isn't in plants is B12 (as far as I am aware) and that some say animal protein is better at helping the body detox than plant protein.
My dentist who deals with toxicity said that eating eggs helps detox, and these are acceptable for vegetarians.
It is my desire in life to be vegan, but at the moment I am staying on dairy products simply because combining various diets on a limited budget has been too difficult for me (vegan, detox and low carb).
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Hi you guys- I read this in Hal Huggin's Book, I'ts All in Your Head".
He said no to dairy- but Yes to lean meats like turkey,etc. but skip the pork.
He said vegetarians would have to put thier vegetarianism on hold til they are recovered from mercury.
Im not sure what the reason is. Whatever the case- if you must eat the meat then- i'd go for the free range organic meat- and cook it very well to kill parasite eggs .
I read that having no more than 3 servings of meat a week - no larger than a deck of cards(and then be sure to have alot of raw pineapple or papaya afterwards to break it down)- and chew it very well before swallowing. that you will be able to digest it better.
Good luck!
Boldylocks
"It is Better to Love than always be right"- Mother Teresa
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I'm sorry, but there's no way I'm eating animals to get better. It's out of the question.
Until Huggins can determine exactly what it is in animal flesh that he believes is supposedly indispensable to mercury detox, I don't think he has the right to tell people they must change their beliefs. It's not like putting on a new coat, it's asking someone to do something that goes against their conscience. He can advise people to eat meat, but to say they "have" to I think is wrong. This is still a new area of study.
We must remember that his opinion is just that - an opinion - and no more the word of God than any dentist who says amalgam is safe. I respect him immensely, but I suspect he has not had the opportunity of studying enough vegetarians to conclude with any amount of certainty that it's animal flesh and not something else in the diet that is a stumbling block to getting well, then it's just a hypothesis on his part. Maybe some vegetarians are low in protein etc.
I suspect it stems from the idea that animal protein is superior to plant. That is highly debatable. All I need to detox is to mobilise and bind mercury. I don't believe aminal flesh is necessary for that.
And, ultimately, two wrongs don't make a right. I don't think it's right to make animals pay with their life for something that was done to us. It's hard enough for me to eat dairy these days, but I struggle otherwise for protein source, and at least their is comfort in knowing that no animal is directly being killed to produce it.
To put animal flesh into my mouth, is out of the question. I feel sick at the thought. I think animals have as much right to life as us.
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Anonymous
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Demi, I think it's because of the importance of amino acids. They are crucial for brain function. They protect the brain from mercury and renew damaged nerves. I don't eat meat either, so I'm taking broad spectrum amino acids. I know nuts have a few amino acids, but they contain high amounts of copper which in excess gives the exact same symptoms/problems as mercury.
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Anonymous
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Even vegan rice protein shakes can provide all essential and non-essential amino acids. I haven't tried one because they have a couple in them I'm not sure about - something similar to aspartame???
But if vegan shakes can be produced that contain all amino acids, then animal flesh isn't necessary.
The only thing I am aware of that can't be got from plants is b12, but there are vegan supplements of this aswell.
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PS, I'm sorry if I was a little sharp in my previous post. It's been a long day! I just don't like it when people assume that vegetarians can just start eating meat, but I know that Boldy didn't mean that <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> It's just not that simple. I haven't eaten meat for over 15 years, not even fish or gelatine. I don't use leather or any product animals die for. Eating meat is out of the question for me, and I just wish medics etc would understand peoples concerns. I get the same from my doctor about the pill. I don't believe in the pill for ethical reasons, but their only response is "but if you're not in a relationship..." That is not the point. To use the product is to support it, and it's ridiculous to give drugs designed as a contraceptive to women with fertility issues.
Anyway, I am looking for a suitable vegan/vegetarian protein product. It's not easy as there is something or other in it that isn't good.
What is it that you are taking?
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It is not right for doctors or anyone to recommend flesh foods to people who have strong personal feelings about killing animals. It makes me crazy when dietary advisors do that.
However, some people are vegetarian or vegan just because they heard it's "better" but they have no deep concern for animals. Such people could very well switch back to meat for health reasons if necessary, couldn't they. Anyway, Demi, I will recommend hemp products again to you, especially the hulled seed (rather than "hemp protein powder", which isn't really a whole food). I find it highly digestible and energy-giving.
- Carla
Animals feel pain & suffering just as we do, and they value their lives as much as we value ours.
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I've seen some hemp products in town and I intend to give them a go <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> My OCD was actually worse when I was a meat-eater than when I became a vegetarian, but I was also getting regular fillings at that time and wearing braces. I don't think I get enough protein, but am hoping to rectify that <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
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Demi, it's ok to show passion for something you believe in. You weren't attacking us responding personally <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> You go girl, the world needs more people who dare to think "out of the box"....... I'm taking an amino acid complex from the health food store, Solgar, and extra onecontaining glutamic acid, NAC and glycine. I've been worried too about not getting enough protein because of the lack of meat in my diet, but I relaxed when I started to take supplements. Thought I'd mention pumpkin seeds do contain copper, but they also contain lots of zinc which antagonists Cu. So they're safe for us to eat. Green, soft ones are the most nutritious. PS Chlorella also contains many amino acids (protein), and as you know detoxes the colon too <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
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Demi, don't go off the deep end re: the issue of eating meat. If Hal Huggins' research indicates that animal protein is a better way to go to regain health while detoxing, he is only being truthful when he tells us that. He is not being unkind, or thinking he is God. Further research may (or may not) come to a different conclusion. He is not telling anyone to change their beliefs. He is just giving us the information that he has gleaned from his (or others') research. We have the right to either accept his findings and act accordingly, or reject what he says and do it our own way.
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I just don't believe he has the right to say "vegetarians must give up their vegetarianism to get well". He can tell people that in his opinion eating meat aids the healing process, but it's just as unethical to say to someone that they "must" eat animals when it is against their conscience as it would be to tell a pregnant woman that she "must" have an abortion to survive. By all means give people advice, but to tell people they "must" act against their conscience is wrong.
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Demi, I just don't remember how he put it, but I don't remember him being offensive - he didn't tell people that they have to give up their beliefs. He just mentioned that eating plant products exclusively was less likely to aid in us getting well. That is a fact that we have to live with and facts don't change because they don't fit in with our preferences. If we don't like that fact, we will have to adjust the program and settle for getting well more slowly or whatever.
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It's not a fact if it's unproven. It's a hypothesis. If it's true, then yes we have to settle to get well more slowly. I am willing to do that.
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Demi, no harm done! I understand how you feel because I'm also a vegetarian. I love animals!!!
for what it's worth -- I still havnt eaten any meat yet since gettig my metal fillings out.
To get my amino acids- I am taking Brewer's Yeast at times-- and Bragg's Amino Acids in non GMO soy sauce. It's delicious and I add it to my rice or salads.
It seems to help- cuz I am not having any problems as Hal Huggins suggested by skipping meat.
hugs
Boldylocks
"It is Better to Love than always be right"- Mother Teresa
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Truly, if it is indeed unproven, it is a hypothesis. Maybe all the vegetarians on this forum can all experiment with this and prove Hal Huggins wrong. Each scientist can be his/her own guinea pig. Much better than being the guinea pigs of the medical community as we have been for years. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
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Thanks <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I didn't mean to cause trouble ! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I was just having a bad day yesterday so more sensitive than usual.
From what I've read, all essential amino acids can be got from plant and dairy, but it can mean good meal planning - something I am pretty bad at! I need to improve my diet. Vegetarians can be low in lysine, but that green beans, lentils and spinach are good sources. I've also read that the body actually breaks plant protein down a lot better than animal protein.
I understand if some people go back to eating meat, everyone has to do what is right for them and their health. I've had to go back on dairy, despite my desire to be a vegan. I don't intend to eat meat, though, so I guess only time will tell if I can detox successfully.
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Very true! I'm sorry I was out of sorts. I will certainly report back on my progress as a vegetarian - it actually gives me more incentive to plan a good diet, lol <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> At the moment I am still eating way too many pizzas and premade microwavable food. What can I say, I am a lazy cook! I have felt some improvement with the alginate. It's also good to know that oats are a source of tryptophan. I've started having organic oats with oat milk instead of the main brand cereals with dairy. Tryptophan is thought to help reduce anxiety. Bananas are another good source, peanuts and cottage cheese. Truly, if it is indeed unproven, it is a hypothesis. Maybe all the vegetarians on this forum can all experiment with this and prove Hal Huggins wrong. Each scientist can be his/her own guinea pig. Much better than being the guinea pigs of the medical community as we have been for years. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
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Yes, amino acids are found in plants, but the amount is way lower than in meat. As I said, I don't eat meat, but I do recognize that it contains valuable nutrients in very high concentrated amounts. And although you can find iron, B vits, zinc and amino acids in plant food and legums, you would haveto eat a huge amount to compensate if you're sick and low in the above mentioned. Our digestive systems do however get rid of mercury faster if we're eating a healthy vegetarian diet, because of all the fiber. Meat takes a loooong time to digest and probably rots in the tract, not a good idea when you want the mercury out <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" />
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Yes, healthy is a MUST, no matter whether eating meat and veggies or plant-based diet. Even with my amalgams still in - I get them removed this month, Lord willing, I feel MUCH better when eating a really healthy diet. Getting rid of sugar of all kinds, and processed foods really helps!
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Anonymous
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If dairy is not good for mercury detox, then a vegetarian is going to have to go vegan. It's very hard as a vegan to make sure that enough protein is consumed, at least on a low carb diet.
Maybe this is the problem, not the meat itself - the need for a high protein diet, low carb diet. From what Russ etc have said, I'm suspecting that is the key - to go low carb. Eating meat and vegetables is essentially the low carb diet. This helps with diabetes and other health problems.
It's very hard to be low carb, high protein on a vegan diet. I'm going to try going vegan again, but am looking for a good protein shake to take. There are a lot of shakes out there, but unfortunately are not all good.
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No negative judgment on ANYONE (except for insensitive doctors, esp. Dr. Mercola, on the topic of a vegetarian diet): One of my teenage children does not want to eat meat (fine with me). If his first meal of the day contains plenty of vegetable-type protein, still his day is poor (bad attitude, etc).
If the first meal of the day is a big serving of free-range eggs, and bean soup, and vegetables, and a bit of fruit, his outlook and energy are pretty impressive.
I remember reading back in the 1970's all this stuff about "limiting amino acids". I hardly ever hear this discussion anymore. So, apparently, certain amino acids in animal prods (doesn't have to be flesh as such) are necessary in generous amounts for brain function. This is just our experience here in this family.
Notwithstanding the above, I still support people who have strong feelings about animals and who want to live accordingly. A doctor or dentist who is worth his salt must take these into consideration. Mercola, mentioned above, is suck a dork: he has this Emotional Freedom Technique that he advises animal-loving vegetarians to use to divest themselves of their apparently inappropriate feelings. Emotional "freedom"? I don't think so; more like mind control by people uncomfortable with OTHERS' feelings.
Animals feel pain & suffering just as we do, and they value their lives as much as we value ours.
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You can get copius amounts of protein from brazil nuts.
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What is the famous saying: "I have lost my faith in science".
That about sums me up!
There are so many different theories floating around about what is good and bad that science clearly isn't offering any definite answers as the findings are open to interpretation.
I'm in the process of planning a new diet for myself that will hopefully avoid the problems I encountered last time. I'm not doing the low-carb diet for now, but am going to concentrate on a good vegetarian (mostly vegan) diet that meets all my needs by combining proteins etc. Eggs are one of the best sources of complete protein and do the least harm to the animal they come from (free range ones that is) so for now I'm going to keep eggs in, but try to avoid milk and cheese. To get the milk they have to keep getting the cows pregnant and then the calves are taken away within a few hours of birth. This is extremely stressful to the cow because she has maternal feelings and in nature supposed to suckle her baby for about a year. Cows have been known to go looking for their calf. Some female calves are taken to be dairy cows, but males end up slaughtered for veal. When the mother cow is no good for milk anymore, she's off to MacDonalds, having lived only a 1/4 of her life.
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Firstly, without having read the book, myself, I'm still quite certain the language Huggins used to relay his findings was not "You MUST eat meat, all vegetarians MUST stop what they are doing OR ELSE". Though I'd be interested if anyone who has a copy could make a quote from the exact excerpt we're talking about so that we might discern fact from fiction. Whilst living in the U.S., at the time, I visited a pig farm. It wasn't a farm, actually, it was a factory. A slaughter house. The notion of killing an animal for consumption, in and of itself, does not particularly bother me. We are, after all, omnivores by definition, and there are many who will argue (with good evidence) that eating vegetarian is unhealthy and contradictory to our biology -- but that's very clearly debatable. In any event, I was so appalled with the treatment these animals underwent that I became vegeterian for approximately four years. I'm a pretty slim guy as it is and over the course of my vegetarian diet I began to waste away, despite all efforts to keep on weight. I innevitably resorted back to eating meat, with a focus on free range and "organic" meat. Since moving back to Europe I am thankful that the meat I purchase never comes from factories, rather, very natural farms where antibiotics are virtually unheard of and one need only drive through the country side to see where the bulk of their meat products are coming from. I feel quite comfortable eating an animal which I knew has had a healthy lifestyle. Interestingly enough, animals raised in such conditions actually taste better than what you find in the states -- creatures who live pitiful lives caged in boxes, fowl with their beaks severed so they can be force-fed, thus fattening them for more meat, and animals given growth hormones/steroids to hasten their growth cycle. Here, one can stroll past a meat store and find a whole pig hanging from the window on display and, frankly, it doesn't bother me in the least. That animal led a healthy, happy life and none of it goes to waste. Nevertheless, I would imagine one can sucessfully detox without relying on meat for B-vitamins, taurine, or other nutrients derived from meat (though it may be quite challenging). But it's important to remember that everyone's body chemistry is different. One man's cure is another man's poison. You must find out for yourself what your own body needs to sustain nourishment and even detox. Algin is an excellent source but if you're opposed to purchasing gelatin products, you might try incorporating seaweeds into your diet, rather than seaweed/algae supplements (which is essentially what Algin is). Here's an interesting link on the wonders of marine plants. I don't think you should lose your faith in science altogether, Demi. Gravity is irrifutible fact, the state of REM whilst dreaming is irrifutible fact, the intoxicating effects of alcohol are irrifutible facts, and on and on. Sure, there's a lot that's debatable and plenty that's downright incorrect, but that does not make science, as a whole, erroneous (just some parts).
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I was joking, Egan <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> But there is some genuine sentiment there too. Science can only go so far in helping us because there is no agreement about what scientific findings mean i.e. the majority consensus is that amalgam is safe, that the amount of mercury leaking isn't enough to make us sick. Most people think those of us who believe we are mercury poisoned are nuts. What I've learned in life is to make your own choices and not to expect people to understand or agree. It's a rare person who doesn't tell me I should eat meat, even though I've never told them they should stop. Genestra Sodium alginate is suitable for vegans. I've used it about a month now and it's definitely helping <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
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Anonymous
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PS that was me, lol. I forgot to sign my name.
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When people want to eat meat (I'm not against it, I'm not condemning anybody) but they know how cruel the factory farms are, then they go and get themselves some "organic" meat from free-range animals. And then they think that is the end of the matter.
No, it is not. A bigger issue is: how is the animal killed? Unless you know for a fact that the farmer sneaked up behind the animal and dispatched it in 2 seconds flat, utterly painlessly for the animal, then you should maybe not feel so comfortable.
I may crave meat one day. (Haven't in 20 years, tho.) If I do, I intend to eat it. Further, I'll not kid myself that just because it is "organic", and free-range that it is also cruelty-free. Having lived on a farm and seen how it is done, I can assure you that there is virtually no cruelty-free flesh food, unless the animal is killed as described above. That is just the way it is. God can put into some of us the desire to not hurt animals in any way, shape & form - and then he will cause us to crave meat! I think it is some kind of test.
Animals feel pain & suffering just as we do, and they value their lives as much as we value ours.
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I'll admit my craving for cheese and milk chocolate is pretty bad, but I've come to the conclusion now that causing the cow such distress in taking away all her babies is actually more cruel than killiing her, so all I have to do is think of the pain of the cow in that moment and that ends my desire for the cheese and chocolate.
Some people don't have a problem in either killing or eating meat, and like you I pass no judgement (I don't think eating animals is a sin or anything) but even the way fish are caught and killed is repulsive to me.
I have a deep care for all sentient life, even insects, and hate to kill them unnecessarily. All spiders in my house go to the garden, unless they are accidentally killed when being caught. Not that it's ever me catching them, mind you, lol, as I am pretty phobic of insects.
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Hi Carla--
when you said "God can put into some of us the desire to not hurt animals in any way, shape & form - and then he will cause us to crave meat! I think it is some kind of test." I felt for you.
Im sure God gets asked that alot! What I feel is that in the Garden of Eden-- you will notice that there were all sorts of TREES and plants they had access to for fruits or non GMO veggies. Only time that an animal was killed- was after Adam and Eve rejected God's request and listened to Satan (who appeared in a serpent form in Eden)
That was when a sacrifice of shed blood was requred-- It didnt have to happen- Adam and Eve were given the choice- but chose to listen to Satan. The laws of nature and genetics became corrupted after that- and that is basically when disease started in the plant and animal kingdom- and in humans.
There is always a price to pay in any choice made. Satan didnt tell Eve the FULL story of exactly what price the human race would have to pay because of her decision.
So later on- Eve and Adam have children and these kids grow up- and get bored of fruits and plant bearing foods- and decide to start farming for meat. There is no longer any more close relation with God where God chose FOR them. They now choose for themselves what they think is best for them. God leaves them to their own choices so that maybe they may learn from thier mistakes later and once again listen to thier Creator.
The desire is there for meat now in humans. Plants are a big pain in the butt to harvest and with all the thorns on berrie plants, its easier to just kill an animal they feel., all the protein plant based foods are ignored and left to rot on the vine.
Problem is- humans , like cows and other plant eating animals have longer intestines and cant properly digest meat. It ends up decaying in the lower bowels and any parasite larvea now have ample time to hatch in the human body. Thus - parasite infestations in humans come into the scene for the human race- encouraging more disease, including cancer, etc.
All sorts of ills start from this. If mankind would only stop looking for immediate gratification and take the time to gather up and eat the protien plant foods (like nuts, beans, etc) we would have no craving for meat, no need for farming, etc. We would be content and get all the correct balance of amino acids and photo-nutrients in the wide range of non-toxic foods available at that time..
But God doesnt force us to do anything-so if we want to eat things are bodies arent suited for- we are allowed to make our own decisions. If we want to live on Burger King and Pizza Hut, God wont stop us- because we have to learn from our mistakes.
I used to crave meat- but have stopped eating it for health , conviction and personal reasons. After I became convicted in myself not to eat it- there was no turning back for me. Now I cant stand eating it. It isnt wrong for others- but for me, it is wrong.
I remember asking God last year- 'Why do we all have to worry about what we eat== why not just go with the flow and eat what we want"
I lay in bed asking God this- and actually God responded back - and I will never forget His words: " I never force my children to follow a certain discipline, but if that child chooses that discipline, he/she will reap the rewards of that discipline".
These words spoken to me were not in words- but more like a Thought that lit up my mind. It changed my whole life.
Last edited by Boldyloxx; 12/06/05 12:58 AM.
"It is Better to Love than always be right"- Mother Teresa
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I agree, Boldy. That was my understanding of Genesis "these will be food unto thee" - meaning fruits and plants, not animals. Elephants etc are huge creatures that survive and thrive on no meat, so I really don't think it's necessary for humans, except that we've got lazy. The only denomination I know who are vegetarians are Seventh Day Adventists.
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Anonymous
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Having said that, I don't do too well on fruit. I always seem to get a reaction. Now I'm back on the vegan diet, I thought I had better get some fruit in, but after two days of eating fruit (only one apple and one pear) I have rhinitis today and like thrust/cystitist symptoms. I don't think it's the bag of peanuts I ate because I don't usually get reaction to nuts but I usually get reaction to fruit. I once ate 2 bananas within 24 hours and was so sick between rhinitis, headache and vomiting that I thought I was going to die.
I don't know whether I have a true allergy or if the cleansing properties of fruit do something to mercury. I am at a loss to understand it.
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Having said that, I don't do too well on fruit. I always seem to get a reaction. Now I'm back on the vegan diet, I thought I had better get some fruit in, but after two days of eating fruit (only one apple and one pear) I have rhinitis today and like thrust/cystitist symptoms. I don't think it's the bag of peanuts I ate because I don't usually get reaction to nuts but I usually get reaction to fruit. I once ate 2 bananas within 24 hours and was so sick between rhinitis, headache and vomiting that I thought I was going to die.
I don't know whether I have a true allergy or if the cleansing properties of fruit do something to mercury. I am at a loss to understand it. So many people who are not well believe that their diet is inducing some sort of cleansing. Personally, from all my reading (& some experience), I don't think this is always the case, necessarily. I would look to deficiencies of nutrients first. The 3 biggies are minerals, amino acids and essential fats. Of course, deficiency and excess go hand in hand, but there is too much worry about cleansing. I'd just nourish myself in all the ways that I could, and then wait to see what happens.
Animals feel pain & suffering just as we do, and they value their lives as much as we value ours.
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Anonymous
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Almost every time I eat fruit, I am ill. I get severe rhinitis 24-36 hours after eating fruit. This is the case with apple, cranberry, orange and banana (which is technically a herb) but it still makes me sick.
If I avoid eating fruit, I don't get rhinitis. As soon as I start i.e. I ate an apple on Sunday evening and a pear yesterday, I get severe rhinitis. At the moment my nose is running and my eyes are burning. This will last about 24 hours and then I'll be fine, so long as I don't eat fruit.
About 2 years ago I told my doctor that I was getting bad reaction to fruit, but they didn't believe me and just prescribed anti-histamines.
If it's not the cleansing properties of fruit, then I must just have a genuine allergy to fruit. I'm cutting it out again. There isn't anything particular in fruit that I need, anyway.
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Demi. do you think these symptoms could be to the sugar in fruit causing yeast to act up. Of course, I am assuming you have a candida problem as do many of us with mercury poisoning. It doesn't take much to get my yeast going, and I just cannot get rid of it. However, I find if I drink a lot of water or non-sugar liquids (like herbal tea - but not tea made of fruit or berries) it helps a LOT!
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Quite a few medical practitioners nowadays view allergies and food sensitivities as deficiency diseases. Some call them "stress" diseases, meaning that the glands are involved.
Last edited by Carla; 12/06/05 08:23 PM.
Animals feel pain & suffering just as we do, and they value their lives as much as we value ours.
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I don't know. It's a mystery to me. I don't get the same problem with sugary foods, sodas, sugar in tea or with bread. I do get thrush like problems sometimes, and have done for years. I'm also fine with sweets/candy and chocolate. But if I eat fruit, 99% of the time I'll get rhinitis. I was okay with a couple of grapes a day, fruit sorbet, yogurt, and I had some strawberries over the summer that I don't remember having a reaction too. I had to stop drinking juice because the rhinitis was so bad. I've heard of people having a genuine allergy to fruit, but that it's rare. I don't remember having this in my childhood as I would have mashed banana with milk for supper and I don't remember being sick after it. I can't eat bananas now - even though it's not a fruit, but a herb. I was thinking I have a problem with nuts as I have like palpitations the past couple of days and I've been eating some peanuts, but I often eat peanuts with no problems, so I think it has to be the fruit for me. I really don't understand why, but if I eat fresh fruit of juice, then 9/10 I will be sneezing, runny nose, sore eyes in about 24 hours. As I haven't eaten fruit today, I am feeling better already and my nose has stopped running. It took a long time for me to make the connection with the fruit and for a while I had this rhinitis almost constantly as I drank a lot of juice. It used to drive me up the wall - like there were thousands of ants in my nose. I really was at my wits end with it. I tried the nasal spray I got but all it did was dry me out so that my eyes were sore from lack of water. Demi. do you think these symptoms could be to the sugar in fruit causing yeast to act up. Of course, I am assuming you have a candida problem as do many of us with mercury poisoning. It doesn't take much to get my yeast going, and I just cannot get rid of it. However, I find if I drink a lot of water or non-sugar liquids (like herbal tea - but not tea made of fruit or berries) it helps a LOT!
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Joined: Apr 2005
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I may crave meat one day. (Haven't in 20 years, tho.) If I do, I intend to eat it. Further, I'll not kid myself that just because it is "organic", and free-range that it is also cruelty-free. Having lived on a farm and seen how it is done, I can assure you that there is virtually no cruelty-free flesh food, unless the animal is killed as described above. That is just the way it is. God can put into some of us the desire to not hurt animals in any way, shape & form - and then he will cause us to crave meat! I think it is some kind of test. Killing is never a painless act and even the most "organic" of farms house acts of pain and cruelty. The question is how much is too much. Eating a meat-free diet is for some (if not all) destructive to the human body. We are, after all, omnivores by our very nature and our bodies demand nutrients that, some of which, are derived only from meat. Craving meat is not a test, as far as I'm concerned. It's your body functioning properly. The human body is also naturally designed to crave sugars, which give vital energy, though many people abuse and even misinterpret this craving (it's still part of our biological design, meant to keep us alive). I have a deep care for all sentient life, even insects, and hate to kill them unnecessarily. All spiders in my house go to the garden, unless they are accidentally killed when being caught. Not that it's ever me catching them, mind you, lol, as I am pretty phobic of insects. Sentience means an awareness of one's existance. Humans are the only known animals which exhibit sentience. Many ancient cultures exhibited a deep respect for all life while still practicing a natural omnivorous lifestyle. I neither condone others from eating meat nor those who abstinain from it, however, I do recognise the fact that our bodies are designed with the consumption of meat in mind. One need only look at our dental structure (not to mention internal chemistry and its demands) to reach the same conclusion.
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Anonymous
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Vegetarians, on average, live seven years longer than meat-eaters and have healthier sex lives for longer. Meat eaters are more prone to have clogged arteries which not only causes heart problems but also affects their sexual functions. I believe human intestines are better suited to plants than to meat.
The human body does need B12, though, which can only be got from animal products. But, I personally think this is why we have hens who lay lots of eggs - it's the most complete protein and nourishing food and the egg is redundant if it is not fertilized. Having the egg from the hen does no harm to her whatsoever as she lays them regardless of whether they are fertilized or not. They are only fertilized if a rooster is around.
I wouldn't have a problem eating eggs, I think we are supposed to. But, what I do have a problem with is the way hens are treated, even free-range ones which can be kept in restricted conditions. The female chicks might be bred as hen-layers, but the male chicks are mostly killed, some, I believe, even grounded up alive. This is what gives me a problem with eating eggs. If I could keep my own hens, like my grandmother did, then I would eat eggs, but that isn't very practical for me, lol.
I'm easing slowly onto the vegan diet, though, as my body is too weak right now for sudden changes, so at the moment I am still eating some dairy.
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Anonymous
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Some reasons given why human body is designed to be vegetarian:
Meat-eaters: have claws
Herbivores: no claws
Humans: no claws
Meat-eaters: have no skin pores and perspire through the tongue
Herbivores: perspire through skin pores
Humans: perspire through skin pores
Meat-eaters: have sharp front teeth for tearing, with no flat molar teeth for grinding
Herbivores: no sharp front teeth, but flat rear molars for grinding
Humans: no sharp front teeth, but flat rear molars for grinding
Meat-eaters: have intestinal tract that is only 3 times their body length so that rapidly decaying meat can pass through quickly
Herbivores: have intestinal tract 10-12 times their body length.
Humans: have intestinal tract 10-12 times their body length.
Meat-eaters: have strong hydrochloric acid in stomach to digest meat
Herbivores: have stomach acid that is 20 times weaker than that of a meat-eater
Humans: have stomach acid that is 20 times weaker than that of a meat-eater
Meat-eaters: salivary glands in mouth not needed to pre-digest grains and fruits.
Herbivores: well-developed salivary glands which are necessary to pre-digest grains and fruits
Humans: well-developed salivary glands, which are necessary to pre-digest, grains and fruits
Meat-eaters: have acid saliva with no enzyme ptyalin to pre-digest grains
Herbivores: have alkaline saliva with ptyalin to pre-digest grains
Humans: have alkaline saliva with ptyalin to pre-digest grains
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Joined: Apr 2005
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You're comparing meat eaters (i.e., carnivores) with herbivores, but excluding omnivores. Human dental structures are unquestioningly that of an omnivore, as evident when compared with virtually all other omnivorous species. Our molars used for grinding are indeed to assist the consumption of plant life, since we are designed as such, but we're also designed for eating meat (whether one chooses to or not is a different topic.)
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Anonymous
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The truth is it's a highly debatable and controversial subject nd I don't think this forum is the place to discuss it. We all have to make our own choices. If we expect others to approve or understand our choices in life, we will be disappointed.
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Joined: Apr 2005
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Naw, discussion boards are for exactly that. Discussion. Disagreeing should not sever a discussion, nor should a subthread in the original topic. That's what makes discussion boards so widely popular on the internet. I find this a healthy and interesting discussion, personally.
Whether humans are omnivores or herbivores is neither debatable nor controversial. There are subjects debatable and unproven, such as whether UFOs exist or if astrology is actually a real phenomenon, and there are subjects with backing evidence. The difference between cold-blooded and warm-blooded animals, on the other hand, or which animals, by definition, are carnivores, omnivores, or herbivores is irrifutible.
Your treatise comparing herbivores with meat eaters, again, does not leave room for omnivores. Humans possess sharp canines, a feature lacking in herbivores. We do not possess large canines like that of felines because we are not carnivores. You say we do not possess claws though neither do most omnivores. Dolphins certainly don't. We do not possess the stronger stomach acids, as you detailed above, because, again, we are not carnivores. Omnivores, typically, possess even less stomach acids than you suppose, but they're still designed for the OCCASIONAL consumption of meat. Most modern humans eat too much meat, that's where the problem lies. What's more, the consumption of processed meats is destructive (indeed, its virtually carcinogenic) even for animals which subsist solely off meat (i.e., carnivores). Herbivores typically possess eyes on the sides of their head, designed to keep a watchful eye on predators. Whereas omnivores and carnivores possess eyes on the front of their face, which operate as something of binoculars used for hunting. True herbivores do not need eyes designed for focusing, omnivores and carnivores (hunters) do and the evidence is there for all to see. Our brain massess match that of omnivores and carnivorous creatures, NOT herbivores.
I applaud vegetarians (particularly vegans) for their decision to abstain from meat because most of the meat industry worldwide is inhumane. If one wishes to win an argument against eating meat, they must stick to the facts. Humans are omnivores by definition. This is neither debatable, nor unproven. Its a classification which has very clear guidelines, and humans fit the bill. What an aspiring debater against eating meat could do, however, is point out that falicies of the meat industry. One could also conclude that because we are omnivores, we are therefore capable of living without meat. I'm not arguing whether one should eat meat or not -- I'd be a vegetarian if my body could handle it, but I've tried and simply wasted away in the effort -- I'm simply arguing the fact that humans are, by definition, omnivorous animals. Debating otherwise is comparable to trying to win an argument which states humans are cold-blooded animals or humans are amphibians. The vast majority of vegetarians recognise the fact that we are omnivores, but that's not their reason for witholding meat from their diet. Again, I'm not arguing against the eating or abstaining from eating meat. I'm only stating the fact that we're omnivores.
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Anonymous
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There are discussion groups out there who will be willing to discuss these things with you, but I'm not well and I don't have the energy or the inclination for debate. Sorry.
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Joined: Aug 2005
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I don't mind discussing with Egan! I do not eat meat and I DO have the energy to post here. I agree with you, Egan. We are omnivores, physically speaking, and it is perfectly okay to eat meat. But we are not "mere" physical beasts.
Somewhere along the line, we - or some of us, anyway - unlike animals, developed reason and consciousness. I don't mean the simple kind of consciousness that makes an animal aware of pain, danger, hunger, etc. - we already have that. I mean consciousness of much, much larger things - like being able to perceive the needs and suffering of others AND TO GIVE A S**T ABOUT IT. How we came to evolve this way, I don't know. Maybe it was creation, as some people say? I don't know that, either. Can't prove anything either way.
Some folks reach a point where they can no longer hide their feelings toward the suffering of food animals. Most of them who decide to become vegetarian do well on proper vegetarian nourishment.
In general, though, I have noticed that people who try to be vegetarian/vegan out of belief that vegetarianism is inherently healthier don't last that long; they seem to crave meat sooner or later. Then, like you, they are made less sick by consuming it. I don't say they feel "well" because virtually no one is truly healthy nowadays, irrespective of their diet. There is too much other stuff going on - such as trying to survive in an insane society. That in itself can make you sick. It is esential to keep in mind, too, that nowadays more and more people enter the world with consitutional weakness. This is not so easy to overcome; it takes more than diet, so much more.
So, if you want to discuss further with me, I'd welcome it and further I thank you for your lengthy and interesting post. Yes, humans are omnivorous and can be relatively healthy while eating meat, all things considered.
Last edited by Carla; 12/18/05 04:25 PM.
Animals feel pain & suffering just as we do, and they value their lives as much as we value ours.
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Somewhere along the line, we - or some of us, anyway - unlike animals, developed reason and consciousness. I don't mean the simple kind of consciousness that makes an animal aware of pain, danger, hunger, etc. - we already have that. I mean consciousness of much, much larger things - like being able to perceive the needs and suffering of others AND TO GIVE A S**T ABOUT IT. How we came to evolve this way, I don't know. Maybe it was creation, as some people say? I don't know that, either. Can't prove anything either way. That's called sentience. The ability to make a conscious decision based on the outcome of events. Where many animals have instincts, humans have none, however conversely we have conscious thought. A lion doesn't plan his actions a week in advance, nor does he comprehend the longterm consequences of his actions. One wonders if our sentience, however, is truly a gift and not a curse. Perhaps it is the remainder of the animal kingdom which are superior to us and not the other way around. What luxury it must be not to worry about future events and exist only in the now. Still, if one accepts the fact that we are omnivores, it stands to reason that our biology demands this sort of nutrion, irregardless of personal belief. I'm not suggesting that one MUST eat meat (indeed, as indicated before, I'd return to a vegetarian state, myself, if I could do so with my health still intact). This is just some food for thought and I'm really only thinking aloud at this point. But if humans' brains advaced as a result of eating meat -- as is evidenced by our fossil remains -- wouldn't that mean that if ALL humankind were to revert to an herbivorous lifestyle we would eventually, over the millenia, develop back into less intelligent life forms, incapable of the modern feats accomplished today (use of tools, premeditated thought, thinking ahead, etc.)? It may be a bit far fetched of an anology, but there's some sense to it..
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Yes, very good points! I'd respond by saying that consciousness (of the advanced kind) developed for a reason, if there is any kind of Mind/Creator/Great Spirit/Order of the Universe/Almighty God. Which to me there is.
You suggest that meatlessness practiced for these reasons of consciousness (or lack of availability of meat?) could result in a reverting to a lesser form of life. Well, now, that depends on one's definition of "higher" and "lower"., for starters. Certainly, some kind of change in our brains and behaviour would ultimately occur, but nobody is going to know until it HAS occurred, just as some food historians/ philosophers/scientists have now made connections between certain changes in human nutrition over the ages, and the resulting changes in human physicality & behaviour. For starters, you might want to look at the writing of Rudolph Hauschka, or at least a condensation of some of his ideas in Food & Healing by Annemarie Colbin. Also, some of the older macrobiotic writings contain wonderful explanations of the larger, universal effects of various diets. Also the book Rare Earths by Joel Wallach & Ma Lang (though it is somewhat crude). This is a truly fascinating study.
As far as I can see, these major shifts in human eating have occurred: first, all our food was raw and wild. Then cooking was discovered, but food wa still foraged and hunted. Then, the biggie - discovery of wild grains, and the subsequent cultivation and selection of these grains, as well as animnal husbandry. Then, importation of foods so that many people began to eat food grown far away from their place of residence. And, finally, the widespread production and consumption of not real food, but food analogs - and that would be 90% of the "food" found in the supermarket and small stores also, all around the world, and consumed by the overwhelming majority of human populations.
In my opinion, the change from humanity's original diet to what now passes for food has wrought changes in our biology as least as significant as could occur if everybody just stopped eating meat. "Meat" at this point in history isn't even the issue! There are just too many un-natural factors in our world affecting our overall health.
I'd like you to clarify something: you referred to returning to a herbivorous diet. No human population has ever tried a totally herbivorous diet, only a small number of vegans here & there. So said Weston Price after all his travels & research; he found vegetarian societies, but not vegan ones.
It remains to be seen if there is a magical Something contained in meat that we can't live without. In my opinion, there are other factors, which I mentioned or alluded to in my previous post. I am not fooling myself that my not eating meat is going to Change The World, and that is not my goal in any event. I just feel sorry for the critters and I don't crave them. If some big change happens in my body-mind and I get unrestrainable urges to eat meat, I'll eat it and that'll be that.
But I'd like to end my speech here by saying that I just can't help feeling that there is something just plain wrong with a person who sees an animal being killed and doesn't bat an eyelash. Why do some people, upon finding out the truth about their "meat", just stop immediately, and others don't give a hoot, and even laugh at the animal's struggles? Only Almighty God Himself knows.
Animals feel pain & suffering just as we do, and they value their lives as much as we value ours.
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I just can't help feeling that there is something just plain wrong with a person who sees an animal being killed and doesn't bat an eyelash. Why when that's part of the life cycle? Do you think the indigenous peoples throughout Pan-America had any less respect for life than you propose? They revered, even worshipped animals on an unparalleled level and, yet, they had no qualms whatsoever with taking an animal's life for consumption. These were not brutal barbarians but nations infinately more in tune with the land than we, of the Modern Era (who conveniently wiped them out), can ever comprehend. Why do some people, upon finding out the truth about their "meat", just stop immediately, and others don't give a hoot Because people are raised in different upbringings with different values. If, like most of us, you've been raised by the Western mould of "democratic" tryannay and corporatist rule, then you've probably been oversensitised by the singlemost successful progadanist tool: television. All one sees is animals, animals, animals on T.V, forcefeeding an exessive pseudo-love and oversensitivity to the animal kingdom (not to mention, a misguided and misinterpreted one -- one which our more humane predecessors, the Native Americans, would find laughable). Oh, I'll agree that the treatment of livestock in most modern facilities is horrific and uncalled for -- I'm not arguing against that. But the act of killing an animal, in and of itself, is not as "cruel" as it may seem. You know what I find more inhumane than slaying and killing an animal for the productive purpose of consumption? Unproductively, needlessly, and brutally maiming a cat by cruelly ripping out its sex organs, mutilating its genitals, and tearing out its claws, then forcing it to live indoors lifelong (which always results in maddness). These acts are often done by the same people who claim they love animals. Many of these fake "animal lovers" have turned to vegetarianism and, in their ignorance, do more harm to animals than good, by trying to make their own cat a vegetarian! I consider such torturous acts more inhumane than killing an animal for consumption, personally. I'd rather be killed an eaten than endure that horror! If I had to choose between living as a rabbit in the wilderness who will one day be shot down by an arrow, roasted over a fire, I'd much rather choose that than living in a CAGE by someone who thinks (s)he loves me. Not killing an animal does not necessarily equate kindness. Unfortunately, often people mean well but just don't .. get it. As is often said, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. That's not to suggest that I think abstaining from meat or claiming to love animals makes you a bad person, nor that I'm pointing fingers at anyone, but I think the vast majority of said people fit into the category I've detailed in the previous two paragraphs.
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Joined: Aug 2005
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I just can't help feeling that there is something just plain wrong with a person who sees an animal being killed and doesn't bat an eyelash. Why when that's part of the life cycle? Do you think the indigenous peoples throughout Pan-America had any less respect for life than you propose? They revered, even worshipped animals on an unparalleled level and, yet, they had no qualms whatsoever with taking an animal's life for consumption. These were not brutal barbarians but nations infinately more in tune with the land than we, of the Modern Era (who conveniently wiped them out), can ever comprehend. ***Yes, the indigenous peoples were definitely more in tune with nature than we industrialized peoples. There is also a tendency of some of us white people to see only the sweet side of these peoples, as if there is nothing positive about civilized peoples whatsoever. There were some indigenous peopls who tortured and burnt their enemies at the stake(same as some white people did to their enemies way back when), so let's not deify the aboriginals. I could go on & on here, but that is not what this debate is about, as far as I can tell. The fact is we're here, this is now, and we have a brain, and we have a responsibility to do our level best on a daily basis to reduce unnecessary suffering. I don't know about you, but one has to look at the entire lifestyle, not just one section of it: the indigenous people not only ate "meat", they hunted it with lowtech methods and hauled it home and gutted it and cooked it over a wood fire, etc. A total natural happening. That is hardly how meateaters nowadays consume their "meat" - there is such a giant disconnection going on. *** Why do some people, upon finding out the truth about their "meat", just stop immediately, and others don't give a hoot Because people are raised in different upbringings with different values. If, like most of us, you've been raised by the Western mould of "democratic" tryannay and corporatist rule, then you've probably been oversensitised by the singlemost successful progadanist tool: television. All one sees is animals, animals, animals on T.V, forcefeeding an exessive pseudo-love and oversensitivity to the animal kingdom (not to mention, a misguided and misinterpreted one -- one which our more humane predecessors, the Native Americans, would find laughable). *** I don't live my life or choose a diet by what the Native Americans find laughable or laudable, and I hope you don't either. As I stated above, this is now, and we are us, and we have to do the work in front of us based on our own perceptions rather than looking to some allegedly perfect race of people living in some allegedly halcyon era - which is a crock. It was then, as now, a time of ignorance. I want to respond to your opinion that we are "oversensitive" to the suffering of animals because we are taught to do so by TV. If that were true, then everyone would be a vegetarian, wouldn't they. Second, there is more pro-meat propaganda than pro-animal propaganda on TV. Third, I did not come by my "oversensitivity" to animal killing and cruelty through television. I was raised on a farm in the 1950s, and we did not even have electrical service until I was much older, never mind TV. I saw the small-scale slaughter of animals done as humane as it could have been, and I hated it at that young age - whereas other children around me were bothered not one whit. So, it wasn't some kind of liberal, urban propaganda, okay? Similarly, you could take 2 children from the same urban, 2005 family, show them animal killing, and one will go vegetarian, and another will not. You made it sound like we are all born a blank slate, and nothing more than what our society imprints onto us thru TV. *** You know what I find more inhumane than slaying and killing an animal for the productive purpose of consumption? Unproductively, needlessly, and brutally maiming a cat by cruelly ripping out its sex organs, mutilating its genitals, and tearing out its claws, then forcing it to live indoors lifelong (which always results in maddness). These acts are often done by the same people who claim they love animals. ***Agreed! I got kicked off an "animal rights" forum for making that point over and over. (respectfully). I was appalled by the responses to my posts - which, by the way, were almost word for word what you said, above.*** Many of these fake "animal lovers" have turned to vegetarianism and, in their ignorance, do more harm to animals than good, by trying to make their own cat a vegetarian! I consider such torturous acts more inhumane than killing an animal for consumption, personally. I'd rather be killed an eaten than endure that horror! If I had to choose between living as a rabbit in the wilderness who will one day be shot down by an arrow, roasted over a fire, I'd much rather choose that than living in a CAGE by someone who thinks (s)he loves me. ***Cats don't live in cages. One of our cats is wild, and begs to go outside to kill mice, which he does, in large numbers! He is so healthy! This does not bother me a bit. He is an ANIMAL and cannot help it what he sees & does. And I hate animal neutering - ugh! I, too, if I had to choose between the two choices above, maybe being killed after living in a state of freedom from birth is preferable. But it never is the either/or situation that we want to make it*** . Not killing an animal does not necessarily equate kindness. Unfortunately, often people mean well but just don't .. get it. As is often said, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. That's not to suggest that I think abstaining from meat or claiming to love animals makes you a bad person, nor that I'm pointing fingers at anyone, but I think the vast majority of said people fit into the category I've detailed in the previous two paragraphs. ***Unfortunately, yes - but not as many animal-rights people or vegetarians are as simplistic as you present us - as I hope I have adequately shown, above. I have actually tried to convince some vegans weakened from a dreadful raw-food-only diet to at least eat some cheese & eggs, even meat, for a while to invigorate themselves. God places us in these situations to show us, I think, that nothing is as simple as we want it to be. You took a swipe at democracy and I don't know what your deeper motivations are, but I have no longer any use for democracy, either. It is a form of govt. useful under certain limited situations and circumstances which I will not mention here. I am still a supporter of animal rights and vegetarianism, while not doubting your own wisdom or denigrating your own perceptions. ***
Animals feel pain & suffering just as we do, and they value their lives as much as we value ours.
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I want to respond to your opinion that we are "oversensitive" to the suffering of animals because we are taught to do so by TV. If that were true, then everyone would be a vegetarian, wouldn't they. I don't think I demonstrated what I was trying to say clearly. Allow me to expound on that. Television in the Land of the un-Free is heavily laden with animal programmes. Flip through a multitude of channels and one can easily come across the following: Animal Rescue shows. These wholly profit driven organisations allow the viewer to observe "cute and cuddly" animals saved and lavished over with thousands of dollar rehabilitation institutions. I guarantee you nobody would watch if it were a programme about impoverished HUMANS being rescused. Cude and cuddly sells, especially to the culturally disintigrating west. Wild Animal Rescue shows. As if that isn't enough, now we're spending millions of dollars on helping poor little monkeys and bears erecting rehabilitation institutes for injured wild animals. I'm sure all the starving HUMANS in the world out there would be thrilled to know that some alligator with a broken leg is living infinately better than him or her all because some capitalist with a fake Aussie accent needs to earn a few more million dollars (not to mention waste resources). Animal Comedy shows. In these degrading, worthless programmes one can witness home made videos of people's pet's, accompanied by a humourless narrator, all for a mass of people who care more about animals than their own species. How humane. How caring. Animal Planet. As if there aren't enough programmes about wild animals, here's yet another method of filling the mindless mass with the same old routine subject: animals, Animals, ANIMALS (ad nauseum). National Geographic. See above. Let's not forget the endless commercials dedicated to manipulating people into buying more dogs and cats! It really just never ends. It's a shame and a hypocrisy that the United States has made a mockery of their holiday, Christmas, just to make a buck or two. The sheer volume of warehouse-sized pet stores says it all. So while these methods may not be for the purpose of oversensitising a nation to become vegetarian, what it has accomplished is encouraging the mass to adore (enslaved) animals. The number of Americans who care more about animals than their own species is large enough to be considered an epidemic.
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I don't think I demonstrated what I was trying to say clearly. Allow me to expound on that. Well expounded, especially your conclusion that while the listed methods weren't instituted for the purpose of sensitizing people excessively, it has nevertheless had that effect. But the "effect" doesn't count if billions still buy "meat" and neuter their pets without batting an eyelash; what is "sensitivity" without action??? As to your statement that people now apparently care more about animals than their own species, I guess I am guilty of that - though, trust me, it ain't because of tee vee propaganda, as I have explained previously. You know, it is strange, isn't it. I am decent as all-get-out, honest, help others, feel shitty if I inadvertently hurt someone, etc. - yet I identify more with animals than with the human race. Further, just so you can be even more contemptuous of me, I like it like that. And further yet, I am not an urbanite; I have been a hardworking, outdoor-type, country woman most of my life and see nature in all its uncaring glory every day, including wild animals. Seems to me we should listen to our hearts & souls instead of trying to fit into some kind of niche based on someone else's ideas about our living space or our backgrounds. I don't care if 99.999% of my neighbours persecute food animals, I do my best to avoid it. And we have neighbours who help animals in other ways than being vegetarian - feeding the birds, donating to animal protection societies, taking in strays and other ways of helping. It all fits.
Animals feel pain & suffering just as we do, and they value their lives as much as we value ours.
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