Indeed it does say that. So do you reach conclusions about your fellow Christians by comparing their actions with this fruit? BTW: Is such fruit listed in the Bible anywhere so that we can use it to assess others' actions?
Without the awareness of actions/fruits of those claiming to be Christian, how then would one ever discern another person.....if not by some form of observation? It is not enough to simply state "I'm a Christian" or "I love God", if we are contradicting this with actions that speak otherwise.
1 John 4:20 If anyone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot [1] love God whom he has not seen. 21 And this commandment we have from him: whoever loves God must also love his brother.
That is something many of us need to overcome. A stumbling block to our relationship with God is allowing emotions to dictate how we feel about another person, rather than loving them with a Christ-like love. Which is not always easy for us, but it is for Christ.
Here is more regarding the necessity for professed faith to be shown by our actions.
Matthew 7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
If we state we are Christian, but our actions are contrary, we will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Since the truth of such a conviction should be displayed with some evidence. Which is where "fruits" come into it.
“And he that reapeth, receiveth wages, and gathereth fruit unto life everlasting: that both he that soweth, and he that reapeth, may rejoice together.” - St. John 4:36
This does not mean we do not have human weakness and tendency to sin, emotion, anger etc. We do, we're human. This is where humility and repentence comes into it. However, LIVING/continuing to live outside of the word of God evidenced by ones actions are a clear sign that such a person is walking contrary to Christ, not with Christ and by such actions can lead/encourage others into the same. Certainly those that do such, whilst proclaiming to be Christians, do much to cause cynicism in others who look and see a person acting otherwise. Yet someone who walks close to Christ, is evidenced by their actions/fruits and they are the ones that often draw others closer to Christ, because they live the word and the word lives in them. The Holy Spirit dwells in truth and it is the Holy Spirit that attracts and converts.
And more on fruits in the bible:
John 15:1,17"I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes[a] so that it will be even more fruitful. 3You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
5"I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you. 8This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.
9"As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love. 11I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. 14You are my friends if you do what I command. 15I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master's business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. 16You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. 17This is my command: Love each other.
Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes, nor figs from thistles, are they? Even so, every good tree bears good fruit; but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. So then, you will know them by their fruits. -(Matthew 7:15-20)
So we are told to be aware of others and the way to do so, is to look at the actions/fruits. This is what we were told from the bible, which helps us discern and sometimes even protect ourselves from corruption or hanging around those who might lead us astray or encourage us into sin. Temptation is not easy! We're tested daily in one way or another.
I'm quite sure the study didn't look into individual crimes. Their conclusion based on the evidence they collected is that the more apparantly religious a society is, the higher the crime rate. You have rightly pointed out that the study is flawed in that the opinions by the authors try to place causality on the religion. There are many factors besides religion that are common among the nations that they have labeled religious. The acceptance of greed as a positive social trait in each of the societies could be the real cause of the high crime rate. In Japan, for instance, gain at the expense of others is highly frowned upon in their culture.
Yes I agree. You can also find many people who write themselves on a form as Christian, or say they are when asked - but in reality have little to do with God or Christianity. It's interesting and not uncommon. I assume it's kind of habitual perhaps. Perhaps they believe there might be a God, or maybe they do believe in Christ, but have little evidence of it in their own lives/actions, nor give God much mention at any other time (until emergencies). I think alot of people, particulary in the US are Christian, but you may find their lives are not always lived in a Christian manner. Even the bible refers to the luke warm! Of course there some atheists out there that are more Christian in action than some self-professed Christians around. Showing really that all human beings have within them the capacity for good from our Creator God. But ALL human beings have capacity also for evil. Nobody is exempt. The difference is the blood of Christ removes our guilt when we sincerely repent and part of that is sincerely striving to do better from that moment on.
You seem to think that I agree with the study I presented, when I plainly stated that I don't. I was showing CTD a study that drew conclusions in the same way his study did, and also showing that it was just as incorrect. Do you think it's ok to present a study with very few, albeit notorious, examples and then draw conclusions about a belief system from that? Apparantly it is not ok for my example but it is ok for CTD's.
I'm sorry, I must have missed the part where you presented a study you clearly did not agree with and for that I apologise to you. Sometimes I miss things and it's part of my not always clear concentration. However, as a Christian, I am fully aware of mankind's need of Christ regardless of race/creed/position and without such, nobody can be saved.
I find this irrelevant since I already said I disagreed with the conclusions drawn in the example I posted. In fact I said that those conclusions were erroneous not two sentences from where I mentioned the study in the first place. You want to judge my Christianity? Judge it based on the fruits you mentioned. Show me one place in the Bible that says I am not allowed to point out to my fellow Christians where they are not following Christ's example.
I never said that nobody should point out to their fellow Christians where they were not following Christ's example. You have either misrepresented or mistook what I meant. You seem very quick to point out the faults in fellow Christians on here, yet strangely silent when it comes to ever pointing out the good, or coming to the defense of Christianity/Christ against some unfair/incorrect statements by the evolutionists on here.....yet then you become irritated when people question your Christianity. How else do you expect to be received?
Reminding others of faults is wise, but let us not forget this:
Matthew 7:1-12
Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 s For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and t with the measure you use it will be measured to you. 3 Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but u do not notice the log that is in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.
Just because I don't parade the good things I know about Christianity and the works of Christians on this forum, you assume I am unaware of them. Far from it. I don't need to do that here.
It's not about parading, it's about balancing the negative with acknowledging the overwhelming good which would indicate a person who is certain in their faith and considers it, Christ and fellow Christians of value. That might indicate you believe you are on the right side..... Are you interested in encouraging and leading others to Christ? Part of doing so is supporting your Christian brothers and sisters in their work in upholding God's holy word.
Sure you can judge them now in the light of history. For the most part, they thought they were doing the right thing and furthering the cause of Christ. It is the very thing that Christians are hesistent to do now that stopped those others from continuing their horrid work. Christians that knew they had to stand up to their brothers and shine the light of Christ on the suffering they were causing. Christians don't do that today. Many seem to revel in the excesses of the most fanatical.
They thought they were doing the right thing? Maybe, but could you give me an example of an instance in history you are referring to exactly? So perhaps we can elaborate a bit more. I think we need to understand all the circumstances in these things, rather than point to an action without giving context of the whole scenario and what other dangers there may have been here (consider souls). But yes, when we see our brothers/sisters doing that which is contrary to Christ's teachings, we must point that out to them.
However, we must also consider that there are those who know how to rouse the masses by using religion and twisting aspects to confuse/anger others for their own gain. That can happen in any religion/cause/organisation. There will always be fanatics and those with a taste of war/violence and many manipulate others to join them.
It is not really about judging in the light of history. The bible was there all along. That was the example that was set for all those who wished to be Christian. So it's not so much in light of history, when one had the light of the gospels all along! And did they act accordingly? No wonder Christ was in so much pain over the human race and still is! He must shake His head. Consider Judas and how many Judas's do we have within the faith? Do we really think that Satan isn't going to try and get involved? By heck he is! Anything to bring down Christians and cause further loss and pain to Christ. He loves nothing more than scandal in relation to any Christian. It then gives the atheists more excuse to scoff and confirm themselves in their position. Remember Satan considers God Himself as his only true enemy. Satan will work far more furiously on those who are trying to walk with Christ! Which I think is why all Christians must strive to support eachother in our walk towards eternity and strive for holiness. Holiness attracts souls to Christ.
For Satan, working on those in a position of shepherding others would be the number one target. If you bring down such a person, you have the hopes of bringing down a multitude. Which is why we are called to pray and stay faithful and keep the word of God near. Satan is very clever and will use whatever means to bring a Christian down and give Christianity a bad name and to keep the unbelievers unbelieving. He is sometimes referred to as the prince of this world.
2 Corinthians 4:4In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them
You are arguing to get me to agree with you when I already do. You let CTD twist what I was doing into some sort of crusade of mine against religion, and then you agreed with him. Just look at his last 2 posts. He is trying to get me to defend a study that I have said I disagree with. I am not against Christianity or even Christians who make mistakes. You be the judge, but judge using the criteria set in the Bible, not the criteria set by men.
I'v learned that arguing to get anybody to agree with me doesn't work!
But I'll still answer and defend where/when I feel necessary. I was defending Christians/Christianity against negative commentary, not aware of the point you were trying to make. Regardless, it seems that little positives, if any are ever given regarding Christians/Christianity. I think my post was still relevant in that respect. When one continues to omit mentioning the good, when there are so many good Christians that deserve recognition and acknowledgement, some reminding maybe in order.
I wasn't aware you agreed with my comments by your earlier posts. In fact, your posting history, when mentioning Christians/Christianity has not indicated to me - any such positives regarding Christians... but I apologise if I'm mistaken.
I find that your position regarding Christianity seems to be a cause of confusion on here.
