Hmmm, re Linear's link. I'm not sure if giving any kind of study/statistic is so easily verifiable for it's accuracy regarding this...I'd be very surprised if it did, considering the bible says "By their fruits ye shall know them".
Indeed it does say that. So do you reach conclusions about your fellow Christians by comparing their actions with this fruit? BTW: Is such fruit listed in the Bible anywhere so that we can use it to assess others' actions?
And do such "studies" really reflect (as I've said) overall truth and "Christianity" - or does it reflect a breakdown of society/family overall? Since if one takes a look at the circumstances of crime and what lies behind it, you will not usually see the Christian side of it at all. Quite the opposite and usually a long line of abuse - sexual/physical/emotional, drug/alcohol abuse, disregard for morality and other people, disregard for the law, indifference, not considering or caring about consequences, pride/greed etc etc (the list goes on). What is the connection here to Christianity?.....aside from the fact we're reminded by these things how much humanity needs God? Whether they like to think so or not.
I'm quite sure the study didn't look into individual crimes. Their conclusion based on the evidence they collected is that the more apparantly religious a society is, the higher the crime rate. You have rightly pointed out that the study is flawed in that the opinions by the authors try to place causality on the religion. There are many factors besides religion that are common among the nations that they have labeled religious. The acceptance of greed as a positive social trait in each of the societies could be the real cause of the high crime rate. In Japan, for instance, gain at the expense of others is highly frowned upon in their culture.
Focussing on and presenting the negatives on Christianity in preference to exposing the overwhelming good is also somewhat suspect from a self-professed Christian Linear ..... I can't help but pick this up from your posting history on this forum and it seems to me, most unusual when one considers the undeniable exhaustive work done by Christians and Christian organisations across the globe for help of others.....Or have I missed a post of yours has acknowledged such? If so, apologies.
You seem to think that I agree with the study I presented, when I plainly stated that I don't. I was showing CTD a study that drew conclusions in the same way his study did, and also showing that it was just as incorrect. Do you think it's ok to present a study with very few, albeit notorious, examples and then draw conclusions about a belief system from that? Apparantly it is not ok for my example but it is ok for CTD's.
Who isn't aware of the persecution of Christians throughout time, which continues to this day in certain parts of the world? Yet you won't hear this mentioned
Would you like to tell me what is done in the name of true Christianity these days that ask for the killing/burning of those who do not comply with it? Instead we see Christians persecuted, tortured and even killed for practising their faith in certain areas. Is it preferable to ignore this and instead focus only on past instances of religious fanatics who did contrary to the teachings of Christ? How about reflecting upon the worldwide Christian organisations that do so much for mankind - those most broken, needy/desperate, poor/sick etc etc... If you balanced your negative press occassionally with stressing the MANY good fruits of Christianity (put into action as Christ told), perhaps the suspicions regarding your own Christian status would not have arisen on here as much.
I find this irrelevant since I already said I disagreed with the conclusions drawn in the example I posted. In fact I said that those conclusions were erroneous not two sentences from where I mentioned the study in the first place. You want to judge my Christianity? Judge it based on the fruits you mentioned. Show me one place in the Bible that says I am not allowed to point out to my fellow Christians where they are not following Christ's example.
Christians are well aware of the atrocities committed by those in the past proclaiming to be "Christian" but we are also not fooled at how UNCHRISTIAN they were, and contrary to Christ's teachings they were and how shameful they were (and are when anybody continues to do such). But we are also not convinced by those using this as an "example" regarding Christians either
Sure you can judge them now in the light of history. For the most part, they thought they were doing the right thing and furthering the cause of Christ. It is the very thing that Christians are hesistent to do now that stopped those others from continuing their horrid work. Christians that knew they had to stand up to their brothers and shine the light of Christ on the suffering they were causing. Christians don't do that today. Many seem to revel in the excesses of the most fanatical.
Does any negative press/studies one brings up regarding the apparent increase in crime with "Christians" reflect on Christ and the word of God? No. Does it reflect on Christians giving their lives to work for others and God? No. Does it reflect on other Christians going about their ordinary lives and trying to do their best? No.
I never said that it did reflect on those things. Remember, I said the study was flawed...in the same way that CTD's example, powerful men who were atheists and killed a lot of people, is flawed in it's claim that atheism was the cause of their actions.
Now, I don't think anybody would have to search too far and wide to find the atrocities committed in our human history by people who far from Christians, practised an anti-Christian, power hungry existence, in a position of power and committed terrible crimes against humanity as result.....in the meantime Linear, perhaps you ought to take some time out of your search for the negatives on Christianity and start taking a good look at how much Christians do for humanity around the world, which may remind you of how powerful Christ's example was and how it continues to this day. Partly why we convert to Christianity!Part of being a Christian and encouraging others is also by showing the GOOD fruits of Christianity and reasons why you became one. If one only enjoys giving the bad commentaries, one must begin to question such a person's sincerity in claiming themselves as a Christian....
Bring on the judgement, then. CTD is quick to speak ill of my claims to be a follower of Christ. Just remember that the fruit you claim I am not to be producing is the same fruit that your fellow posters on this forum should also avoid producing. So, point out from Bible passages which bad fruit I am producing and then compare the amount I put forth with that from other Christians writing on this forum. I am sure you can point out my flaws but can you see those flaws in the people you agree with?
Christ will indeed hold all of us accountable for our own participation (or non) in gaining souls for Him. By continually failing to mention and expose the overwhelming good, in preference for cherry picking the negative is contrary to any encouragement to others and speaks more about a person who is either in great inner conflict with his own self professed faith, or is somehow misleading/confusing others regarding it. Showing up bad Christians or those fallen/strayed from the faith - whilst ommitting and ignoring the many good, looks more like an attempt to lend support and sympathy for atheism or at least is a very good impression of it.
Just because I don't parade the good things I know about Christianity and the works of Christians on this forum, you assume I am unaware of them. Far from it. I don't need to do that here.
Tell me Linear, for what reason would anybody become a Christian if the fruits, history, statistics of Christianity/Christians are pretty rotten (or worse) in comparison with atheism?.....Since it is within God's word that tells us "By their fruits ye shall know them" - Are we then to consider that God was incorrect?
No
To me, that isn't even an option - therefore I conclude that it's human beings that are flawed, including some of these studies/statistics. And one would need to know the background of the criminals concerned. I very much doubt you'll find for the most part, a foundation in Christianity and living accordingly. I've actually read plenty of criminal books (non fiction). Some of the worst crimes of humanity (many starting in petty crime) and many have been the rotten fruits of child abuse, child neglect, immorality, alcoholism, drug intake, mental illness etc, but sorry I've not seen where Christianity has been responsible or caused such awful outcomes. What is the connection to Christianity here? None whatsoever. Only the reminder again that all mankind need Christ. So is it therefore the result of Christianity? Or the results of the above? I don't think it takes an einstein to figure that out.
You are arguing to get me to agree with you when I already do. You let CTD twist what I was doing into some sort of crusade of mine against religion, and then you agreed with him. Just look at his last 2 posts. He is trying to get me to defend a study that
I have said I disagree with. I am not against Christianity or even Christians who make mistakes. You be the judge, but judge using the criteria set in the Bible, not the criteria set by men.
