You are persuasive, no doubt about it. Your questions are so pointed and direct, just plain good appropriate questions. I think I understand where you stand, now.
I don't think you do, to be honest, based on things you said below, but that's ok.
What I think you don't "get" and I sure hope I don't sound like I am patronizing you - is that you equate, for example, the hawk killing its prey (chicken or mouse, for example) with a human buying "meat". No, it ain't the same; and this is why I defend hunting to a degree. Both the hawk and the human with his weapon are doing the deed themselves. But the large majority of humans want that "meat" but don't want to have to get it legitimately - because killing & gutting is hard, dirty work,( and I have, when much younger, assisted with this.)
First, I did not claim that a hawk killing a chicken was morally equivalent to a human killing a chicken for food.
Second, I already explained in a prior post why it is simply not feasible for each individual to kill and gut his own food. It's just not practical in our current modern society.
Personally, I have killed and gutted many an animal -- mostly fish and small game, though. I don't imagine I would enjoy very much killing and gutting a deer or bison, for example, but if I HAD TO, I would. Given that I don't have to, why would I?
When you go to the store and get your pkg of "meat", you are removing yourself from the reality that that animal wanted to keep on living just as much as you.
Two comments: 1) Why should you assume that I am removing myself from the reality of the dead animal? How do you know what I'm thinking when I buy my meat (which does not come in a package, by the way). 2) How are you going to go about proving what an animal does or does not want? Obvsiously there are certain behavioral cues, but aren't these instinctual reactions to stimuli? Can a chicken feel fear, and if so, how do you know? What does chicken fear feel like, and how do you know? Is chicken fear the same as human fear, and if so, how do you know? On what basis do you assume that the chicken wants to live just as much as me?
I will grant you this though, and we'd probably agree: I think it is not a good thing that people are so far removed from the consequences of their actions. But I assure you I have done a fair amount of research into how our food gets to the table, and as a result make purchasing decisions based upon that information. Like I said before, I've no problem with death -- it's the pain and suffering we could do without. I honestly don't feel bad that the bison has died for reasons already stated, but I am appreciative that it lived, giving me an opportunity to benefit from it. I show my appreciation in my own way. If you want to call it corpses or other emotionally charged terms, that doesn't change anything to me -- those are just words.
Have you ever wondered WHY they can't eat "meat" the same way that the hawk, and other carnivorous/omnivorous animals do?
Are you trying to argue that eating meat is "unnatural" for human beings? Is that your argument?
Something else is going on here. And I think it is the fear of death that you talked about - but which you imply is an attitude held only by sappy vegetarian animal-lovers.
I never said or implied any such thing.
You can say you don't mind death, but if you were dispatched very suddenly & unexpectedly, like our much-discussed bison, your spirit would mind plenty.
Whoa, nellie. You have entered the realm of beliefs, which cannot be proven. That I have a "spirit" has not been established, nor has it even been defined. Let alone, that a "spirit" could have the capacity to "mind" like I can in my current state. Major red herring. Sorry.
Of course, this is nothing I can prove. But we were meant to die of old age,all of us, human and animal alike.
Why? Because you say so? Because the bible or some other script says so? Sorry, what we were "meant" to do or not do is not something you can't judge.
I do think that people who say, "oh, death is natural and neat and nothing to fear" talk that way only when they are very old and on their deathbed after a fulfilling life.
There's only one way to find out. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Don't tell me, ta33, that if someone came to your door (at your young age) with a gun and told you that they'd kill you in an hour that you wouldn't give a hoot.
I never said any such thing. I assure you I would give a hoot. What conclusions would you draw from this?
I wish that people who craved meat would just eat it and be done with it, esp. ex-vegetarians. Honest, the hoops they jump through trying to defend their reborn desire for "meat" makes me cringe.
Two comments: 1) Personally, I don't "crave" meat at all. In fact, I changed my views about meat eating long before I actually began eating meat again. I just had no "desire" to eat it, until the mercury issue. In fact, giving up meat was a piece of cake - one of the easiest things I've ever done. I still don't eat most meat products to this day. I could take it or leave it, to be honest. I'm probably the exception to the rule, though. 2) This is mere entertainment and mental exercise for me - I certainly don't have to "defend" my views to anyone, least of all strangers on the internet (no offense). <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Interestingly though, I have come across those who are rather defensive in defending their diets, which makes you wonder if they don't feel a little guilty deep down inside. On the other hand, the vegans (in general), from my experience, certainly have their own set of "issues". I've met some interesting people with some interesting viewpoints on the matter, but I guess that's neither here nor there.
