You are persuasive, no doubt about it. Your questions are so pointed and direct, just plain good appropriate questions. I think I understand where you stand, now.

From my point of view, it is not a simple question of "don't eat animals". It is, over all, a question of how humans regard animals, whether they are eating them or not. I can't bear the the thought of some alcoholic or druggie or junk-food-addict going veg, esp. vegan - they will degenerate far faster without the meat than with it. Meat (is it the amino acids? the EFA? or what?) seems to provide a balance to sugar, alcohol & drugs - crude & temporary, but still it keeps them on their feet for a little longer.

What I think you don't "get" and I sure hope I don't sound like I am patronizing you - is that you equate, for example, the hawk killing its prey (chicken or mouse, for example) with a human buying "meat". No, it ain't the same; and this is why I defend hunting to a degree. Both the hawk and the human with his weapon are doing the deed themselves. But the large majority of humans want that "meat" but don't want to have to get it legitimately - because killing & gutting is hard, dirty work,( and I have, when much younger, assisted with this.)

When you go to the store and get your pkg of "meat", you are removing yourself from the reality that that animal wanted to keep on living just as much as you.

That some people are aware of that reality - and hate it - but still want that creature's flesh, shows that God has a sense of humour.

I don't know if you are debating with me just because you enjoy the jousting or what, but to try to equate the hawk doing what hawks were designed to do THEMSELVES, and the human buying the neat little package of "meat" and cooking & preparing it with salt & pepper and other yummy flavourings - well, when you equate those two, it kind of makes me think you are just making fun of me, that you think I'm not the sharpest tack in the box. No human could consume that "meat" without all the preparation involved in reducing its animality (my word) and coarse, revolting, unrefined taste. Even steak tartare - they add seasonings. I'd defy 99.9% of civilized citizens to eat "meat" (ie, animal corpse) the way the hawk does, never mind catching it & killing it themselves!

Have you ever wondered WHY they can't eat "meat" the same way that the hawk, and other carnivorous/omnivorous animals do? Something else is going on here. And I think it is the fear of death that you talked about - but which you imply is an attitude held only by sappy vegetarian animal-lovers. You can say you don't mind death, but if you were dispatched very suddenly & unexpectedly, like our much-discussed bison, your spirit would mind plenty. Of course, this is nothing I can prove. But we were meant to die of old age,all of us, human and animal alike. And as Demi said, I don't recall her exact words, we are somehow fallen and therefore must do sad & ugly things to stay alive. I do think that people who say, "oh, death is natural and neat and nothing to fear" talk that way only when they are very old and on their deathbed after a fulfilling life. Don't tell me, ta33, that if someone came to your door (at your young age) with a gun and told you that they'd kill you in an hour that you wouldn't give a hoot.

I wish that people who craved meat would just eat it and be done with it, esp. ex-vegetarians. Honest, the hoops they jump through trying to defend their reborn desire for "meat" makes me cringe. They owe no one any apologies. It is the mindless meat eating that raises my ire, or those who raise abstract arguments about our ancestry or whatever. I mean, our ancestors, depending on how far back you want to go, lived in cold, dark caves, too, but I don't see anyone wanting that kind of housing today.

Demi said something about moving this discussion elsewhere because she has dial-up internet.