SAMPLE PICTURE/VIDEO SCANS OF DEVELOPING BABY AT DIFFERENT STAGES <--- click on link to view.

JOURNEY OF THE UNBORN CHILD http://www.guilfoy.org/journey.html (please give pictures below a chance to show up).

I use to work in an Emergency room in Triage and in the back. (As an admitting clerk, but before our new hospital was built we saw all the people coming in and notified the Doctors, etc.). Anyway - one day when I was in back with the action (charting, ordering labs, etc.) this lady came in hemorrhaging and had a spontaneous abortion (miscarriage). I saw the remains and there was a tiny hand.. That was my last medical job actually. Not so sure I'm cut out for that. I got very emotional. I guess that's normal. I have always thought abortion is wrong. Not so harsh that I don't think its sometimes warranted or at least justified like in cases of incest, rape or when a pregnancy is a danger to the woman's life, but this made it so much more real. On that note, though, my brother-in-law's sister WAS raped and had the baby... She couldn't imagine life without him. I don't think partial term abortion is EVER justified, however. That is pure murder. Being a woman and having that procreative power is amazing. It is a life...There just isn't a way around that. Our body's are not our own during that period. Part of being a woman. Of course men need to also be responsible. That is one good thing about Barack Obama.. He is encouraging fathers to be there. (Not that I'm voting for him).

Yes, seeing the incredible details of the unborn baby can be a shock, but also a reminder that they are completely human and do not go through any such "fish stage" as we've been told. The full genetic information is there after conception - the only change that takes place is "growth" *the unfolding*, therefore the deliberate termination of their life at any stage can be classified as murder.

I do not believe that it is harsh to state that I believe abortion cannot be justified in any circumstance. I believe it is harsh to ever consider "murder" to the unborn as an option. Only God has the right to take life, not us. Rape and/or incest also do not justify it and if we say it can? Then we ourselves add a crime just as bad, if not worse than the original. We may as well say that if a child is BORN out of rape or incest, then perhaps if the Mother still has the child, but has second thoughts and decides the child is a distressing reminder - she can kill it then too? What is the difference? The child is precious from conception onwards and does not deserve murder then nor after it's born.

I understand that the victim herself has undergone dreadful trauma from the abuse and then becoming pregnant as a result. Carrying that child for 9 months, after conceiving it out of rape or incest? I cannot imagine that. However, let's consider this. Which is the worst of these crimes - rape, incest, child murder? If anybody should be killed out of this, should it not then be the perpetrator, rather than the child who is not responsible for the crime, nor the fact it was conceived?

There are many outlets now for councelling young women through so many of these traumas and unwanted or unexpected pregnancies that are FREE. There are adoption agencies crying out for children for couples who cannot even have kids. Abortion should not even be an option and to my mind there is no excuse.

In the circumstances where a Mother's life maybe in danger if she goes through with the pregnancy? That is a very very difficult moral dilemma. It is also not absolute what is going to happen in life and all is in God's hands. I think it takes a very special person to sacrifice the risk to die, in hopes to save their unborn child. It can and often does happen. In those that are in such a dilemma and don't know what to do? My heart goes out to them. We know a lady who was told that if she went through with her pregnancy, she would die. She chose to go through with it, rather than kill her unborn child. Both survived and are thriving.

The same thing with my friend's sister in law. Told she should abort the child, but she chose to go through with the pregnancy, both have survived so far and near the end of the pregnancy. She now needs to get a caesarian instead. Now, I'm not saying this happens in every case, but I personally would not like to take the life of my child to save myself, UNLESS I had no other choice and my already existing family would die without me. Personally as a believer, I would like to think I would put the matter in God's hands, trust him and not choose to take the child's life, even if my own were in danger.

Dying is not a sin, being a victim of abuse is not a sin, carrying a child conceived from abuse is not a sin, but killing another human being who is defenseless and innocent most definitely is. I hardly see that a victim of abuse who becomes pregnant is going to be "freed" because she aborts the child. You'd be surprised at how many girls wind up later psychologically tormented by it, rather than relieved.

If we are to believe there is a God, then how can anybody possibly feel there is any right to "kill" a child? Where does God state this is justifiable at any level? I understand there are mitigating circumstances and perhaps the person who went through with it was not fully aware, but only God can judge them personally. The act itself should be obolished. Nobody can stop someone from doing back-street abortions, but saying "well we should offer them, because they're going to do it anyway" is a total cop out. It's like saying "let's legalise this or that, because it's going to happen anyway".

It's a sin, it's a crime. I know I sound passionate Jeanie and it's not personal to you, but on this issue? I have zero tolerance for this atrocious act. In the end, the child belongs to God and it is He that has allowed the gift of life. Something that Barack Obama doesn't apparently believe in. He too stands for abortion, as does his wife. Even the bible mentions that we will be judged on how we treated the weakest among us! And what can be more vulnerable than a child in its Mother's womb? The very place that should be a safe haven has become a killing field.

And we think the Jewish Holocaust was bad? 6 million died. What about the abortion Holocaust? We're past the billion mark worldwide.

No prolemo Bex. You're preaching to the choir. I had a friend who had aborted her baby and then couldn't get pregnant. She was tortured with it. I personally couldn't do it either. I hold motherhood to be very sacred and have devoted myself to it as well. I have a bad back from protecting my youngest. I would sacrifice my life for my girls! But I do hold that in those cases I don't think those women should be judged. I have been raped myself. (Didn't become pregnant, though). But I'm not God either. I happen to believe too, though, that all travesties will someday be made right including for those unborn babies.

Hi Jeanie,

Thanks for your message. I agree with you, I too believe that only God can judge the human heart and I am not judging a person "personally", nor their circumstances (How would I know?). I am simply exposing the evil act of abortion itself for the sake of the unborn, who do not have a voice! I am so sorry you have been raped. How horrible! I hope that God has (or will) heal you from that. I'm so glad that you have kids though, they are truly a gift. I don't! But I have my neice and nephews and I cannot imagine life without them, or one of them ever being a victim of abortion. The idea makes me feel sick, because it happens so much now in society. It's become a bit like removing a wart/mole/growth.

Once, I believed in abortion. I was about 19 years of age and I remember (for reasons I do not understand) that abortion was ok, so long as it was for a "good" cause. i really believed that a dead child, was better than an unwanted child. I was naive I guess about the sacredness and gift of human life and God really didn't come into it for me as much then. I did not consider that to take a life was in God's eyes at least, especially an innocent defenseless human life, an abomination....

So I think for me, the realities of abortion only hit me after I got serious with God. For some reason my eyes were opened to it and I was shocked at how I could ever have thought it was "ok". I think personally that it depends on the condition of a person's heart. I worry about proponents of abortion and feel there is spiritual blindness that they are not aware of, to actually be able to not see the horrific truth of what they are supporting/condoning. I am not talking about the Mother's in dreadful circumstances who may not be fully aware/informed about the act and is in a state of trauma herself. I am certain God judges each person and circumstance according to His perfect justice/mercy.

If anything, that life in the womb should be protected and cherished at all costs, because it is a gift from God Himself, who is the author of all life. To remove this child like it's mole or a cyst, because it's getting in the way of the Mother's lifestyle is unthinkable. Even for more serious reasons.

My God have mercy on all those who condone/support abortion and open their eyes too. I don't worry about the eternal salvation of those babies, I know their horrific ending, like Christ on the cross, will receive their own ressurrection in Him. However, I worry very much for the salvation of those who continue in this atrocity, whether actively, or inactively (sins of ommission - doing/saying nothing). But again, each person/circumstance is in the end, only for God to judge.

Meanwhile, the unborn child is still being killed and the only voice they have is us.

I will never forget my first when I just started feeling her flutter. Her heart was the size of a pea. The Dr. was trying to hear a heartbeat and she was dodging him all over the place....I was blown away. It truly is magical. Every day miracles....

lol awwwww.

I have a friend who had a baby about ... two years ago now and she had an abortion prior to that many years earlier. Well, after she had a scan of her baby when she was pregnant (the second time), she simply made the comment to me "it really put things into perspective". She did not add anything further. She is not a believer in God, but she obviously became a believer in the humanity of a child in her own womb and was quite taken aback at the detail and personally I sensed she was a wee bit shocked and perhaps uncomfortable.

I wish I could have had a baby myself. Years of sickness didn't give me the opportunities. But I see how precious and vulnerable they are. Would LOVE to have my own! You are lucky you have them, they truly are a gift.

I'm sorry too....I wanted more. Dreamt about it for years. I am blessed to have my two, but understand the heartache of not having one when you want to. Wasn't sure if you were male or female so guess that answers that? (Female?) Right??

There is no way babies are random....

Thank you, Bex and Jeanie (and Russ)!
Oh how precious! I had never seen the 'jouney or an unborn child' pictures! How awesome is our GOD? !!!
Bex, I could not find that verse you spoke of 'knitted you in the womb'....I have only KJV Concordances. I did look for a few websites for the New American Standard verse, and meaning. But it was virtually the same.
Nonetheless, abotion is definitely MURDER! I do feel if it is at the expense of the mother's well-being (death perhaps), then that must be dealth with in much much prayer. Even then, we read of some that have carried the baby full-term, and delivered as the LORD brought about the MIRACLE OF BIRTH! AMEN! Thanks again! Abishag

I think it's easy to say these things when one has no concept of what it is like to experience such situations.

If my sister got pregnant and for some reason the pregnancy clearly threatened her life, would I urge her to carry on in the hopes that something miraculous or lucky will happen, and risk her own life as well as her baby's? No.

If I knew someone who had been raped and was traumatised, would I tell them it would be a sin to abort the baby? I wouldn't dream of it and I can't imagine how horrific the experience would be for such a person.

A small bundle of cells does not equal a human being, nor does it even equal a baby. We've had this conversation before with RAZD. Though I think we all would have to agree to differ. I think everyone here believes that humanity starts from the moment of conception. Many people don't. There are many arguments both ways.

Personally I would have great difficulty going through with an abortion for any reason, but I do not consider it to be murder in all circumstances and I believe it needs to be legal -- though not as quick and easy to do as it currently is.

Those are the only circumstances I believe it should be at all legal. But also agree with you. Its very individual and up to the person in those circumstances (rape, incest or danger to the womans life). I'd say only in cases of early pregnancy, though, too.

I think this is the ethical problem to which there are no easy answers -- at which point has the bundle of cells become a baby? For most Christian fundamentalists this is a non-issue, but to others it's a point of debate. I do agree with you that if an abortion is going to be performed, it needs to be early in the pregnancy.

I am not decided 100% about my opinions on the restrictions that should be imposed on legal abortion. There is an element of some women being determined to have it done even if it means using a coat-hanger, and this is going to happen if it were completely illegal. There is also a question of the control a woman has over her body and her life. To be honest I'm not too interested in being told by extremists that abortion is 100% wrong all the time. I'm happy to discuss the above issues with someone like you though, Jeanie, who seem to be a little more open-minded.

So, if my opinion = yours, I'd be open-minded. But since my opinion does not, that means I'm closed-minded. Gosh Linda, can you get anymore arrogant? Believing the personhood of the child beginning at the very first stages, is not being closed-minded nor extreme. It's proven that it's a human life from the start, unless you want to argue basic biology. You can call it a bunch of cells if you wish, as though nothing is there, if that makes you feel better about it all. In my book, taking human life is murder, or I'd be a hypocrite by suggesting it isn't. Whether it's at the very beginning, early stages, the middle or the end of pregnancy. All human life is sacred and should be protected, particularly those that cannot protect or speak for themselves. The ones most vulnerable amongst us.

In fact, this was discussed and debated on the creation/evolution forum and it was a very long and tiring debate....

The use of the words extreme and open-minded towards a person who believes in the personhood of the unborn beginning at conception are unnecessary. Can you not actually disagree without patronising?

Just to let the readers be aware. This issue of rape/incest or life threatening situations (the exceptions, rather than the rule), are frequently and deliberately brought up and emphasized by pro abortionists to arouse sympathy for their cause and justify the act of abortion. Nowhere do you see them interested in arousing sympathy for the unborn in these cases. The alternative - the unborn's torture and death is preferable.

They ignore the majority of abortions which are committed mostly outside of the reason of rape/incest/life threatening situations and are done on a daily basis all over the world. The "bundle of cells" Linda likes to refer to, is also not what comes out of an abortion.

Please view the pictures on the website to find out what happens to the unborn children during an abortion and the results. ABORTION HOLOCAUST AND AFTERMARTH - WHAT REALLY HAPPENS

Also the exception of rape/incest/danger of losing one's life has also been spoken about on this forum before.



It was also debated about on the creation/evolution forum. The exceptions are the only thing they can bring up in the end, because they have eyes to see the atrocity as we do, so the need to try and shift burdens of guilt are paramount.

The interest and concern you show for the Mother is admirable Linda. What a pity you do not show the same concern and interest for the unborn child. Why shouldn't both be protected?

Pro lifers are interested in both Mother and child, hence why there are free councelling provided, and adoption agencies also. Killing the unborn child has not proven to take the stress/trauma away from the Mother and is in fact an added trauma. Carrying the baby for 9 months knowing it was conceived from rape/incest is also traumatic, but the gift of life and an innocent baby is what remains. That in itself is not a crime, not should it be treated like one OR a mole or a cyst worthy of removal.

For a Mother to add to the act of rape, with murder is also NOT the answer. But nobody but God can possibly judge if somebody in such a difficult position has been desperate enough to go through with it. And we should not judge people who have done this too harshly. Nobody can possibly know what they have endured, unless we have been through that ourselves. But can any of us say we know what it is like to be aborted either?

We should support any abuse surviver but also support the unborn child also. Neither the child, nor the Mother is responsible. Why is the criminal himself not punished as severely? How is it he escapes with his life and may even escape trial, yet the unborn child receives a sentence that even a grown man would recoil from and possibly commit suicide to escape.

Notice how they use words like open-minded for themselves and extreme when discussing us? Which is in line with how they manipulative terms to make them positive for them and negative for us (as mentioned earlier). It's all very much manipulation. Yet they fail to see the extreme nature of murder itself and call us instead "extreme". As in cases of the unborn, they're very selective.

Perhaps the reality of what really goes on is not horrific enough for Linda's taste, as she continues justifying this atrocity for the sake of the rarer and more extreme cases. I cannot really do much more. The only option is perhaps getting hold of more pictures which I will consider doing. But I doubt that will satisfy any pro abortionist whose heart will not be changed and will feel, no matter what, that in some cases it is still ok to kill "it". I do not see how any case justifies the murder of an innocent child. Linda, even the Mother who survives rape/incest has her life, though it maybe shattered. Was she tortured and then torn apart as her baby will be if she chooses to abort it?

Bex, still, there are valid cases of this. With all due respect you have chosen not to have babies cause you've felt you couldn't handle them. I know you would choose not to abort, but when a woman gets pregnant through trauma or if the situaiton is life threatening, we can't judge in those siutations and it is not the woman's fault she is in those situations. If a woman becomes pregnant through her own doing that is one thing...and ideally it is better to give a baby up rather than dispose of it. I would not abort a baby even in the case of Down's or whatever.... I am very idealistic. I don't believe abortion is really a right other than in those cases, but until you are in that situation....

You opened my eyes to a lot of things regarding how bad it really is out there. Right now a lot of people aren't even considering it with voting. (And I am and bring it up...).

However, in these extreme cases....even in those cases I would think that all options should be taken into consideration and that it would only ever be considered early on. However, in the case of trading the life of the mother for the baby.....many other issues would also have to be considered. (Like what the babies chances would be depending on the mother's condition....etc. etc.). It should never in any case be taken lightly. It is treated all too casually and you are right. But in certain cases the mother should have rights... At least the legal choice IN THOSE CASES but never done hastily without all things considered and laid out and given time.

I would not accuse LL of being hard hearted in her thinking, though. I don't believe that is the case. I think she is a lot more sensitive than you may think.

Not much too add to your post, Jeanie. I agree.

Bex, your position seems to be this: abortion, under any circumstances, is murder, and human life begins at conception. You then proceeded to re-state this to me even though I said I would rather discuss with someone whose views are not at this extreme end of the spectrum. There's nowhere to go in a discussion with you. And you're not going to persuade me to share your views. You ask me why I have so much concern for the mother and so little for the baby. I ask you why you are so fervent in fighting for the life of a bundle of cells when the mother -- a fully-grown human with a life of her own -- seems to be of so little concern to you. If you would seriously consider backing laws which would force women to carry babies to term when they've been raped or abused, then I have no words left for you.

I think abortion should not be an easy option for anybody. But it needs to be one nonetheless. Sometimes I think it's kinder to the mother and/or the baby to stop the pregnancy before it gets very far. If a heroin-addicted prostitute accidentally got pregnant and wanted an abortion, I wouldn't personally see an ethical problem with that, given that the pregnancy has not yet progressed very far. You see, I don't necessarily believe that a soul enters the cells at the moment of conception, and if you do believe this, there's no way to prove it. There's the potential for a human to develop from those cells but I would not put them on the same ethical level as a fully-grown fetus, baby, or human being. RAZD did make some good points in earlier debates; for example, natural abortions (miscarriages) happen quite frequently, often before a woman even knows she's pregnant. I had one myself. I was upset for a little while. Do I feel I lost a human being? No.

I think we have to be very careful about which rights we are willing to curtail or strip from women. I want to live in a society where I have some control over my own body and what I decide to do with it. Like I said, I think abortion needs to be legal, but it should not be an easy contraceptive option and women need to be given time and help to think about their choice before they make it.

One last point -- let's imagine the child born of a woman who was raped and not allowed to have an abortion. Let's hope he/she does not inherit the criminal tendencies of the father -- the woman has not been able, after all, to select her own partner for the conception. At which age do you inform the child that its father was a rapist? We're hoping, as well, that the child manages OK without a father around -- or that the woman's husband or boyfriend accepts it as part of the family. The more likely scenario would be that it was given up for adoption, in which case we'd have to hope that the mother took care of herself during the pregnancy even though she is carrying a child she does not want, and a constant reminder for 9 months of having been violated in the most personal way possible.

Ethics are never black and white and they are never easy.

By the way, Bex, the sorts of pictures you post are an attempt to evoke an emotional response. They are shock tactics, nothing more. If abortion were carried out, my own position is that it should be early in the pregnancy and it should be quick and painless for both mother and baby. That is not beyond the scope of modern technology and if it isn't always the case, it needs to be. The pictures don't affect the other issues under discussion here.

Damn... I've seen aliens that look more appealing. I can't believe I used to be that ugly.