R2:

Reformed, well later versions, of languagers are pretty normal, all languages evolve over time. There is no evidence anywhere that reformed Egyptian was a language known to the Israelites. That’s not to say that some didn’t but it’s an improbable language given that it was very very uncommon among them at least it is in all the writings we have from them from that period but Nephi claimed that it was the language of his father not just a rare languge that he happened to know. It’s not proof of anything but it is very suspicious.

Jeanie: Two references that explain the reason..... nothing suspicious to me.

Mosiah 1: 4
4 For it were not possible that our father, Lehi, could have remembered all these things, to have taught them to his children, except it were for the help of these plates; for he having been taught in the language of the Egyptians therefore he could read these engravings, and teach them to his children, that thereby they could teach them to their children, and so fulfilling the commandments of God, even down to this present time.

Morm. 9: 32
32 And now, behold, we have written this record according to our knowledge, in the characters which are called among us the reformed Egyptian, being handed down and altered by us, according to our manner of speech.


R2: It’s still hard to explain that Nephi quotes in around 590 BCE from a book that was not written till almost 200 years later. Malachi was written around 420 BCE.

Jeanie: The only scripture I'm aware of them quoting is from Isaiah.....

Ever watched The Passion of the Christ?

No I managed to avoid it after reading a few reviews of it.

Jeanie: It IS hard to watch....but worth seeing. Although I do believe the main suffering actually came from the Garden of Gethsemane where he bled from every pore. Mel portrays it like Jesus is scared and that is why he's sweating the blood, but he's sweating because of a rare medical condition which can be brought on by horrific stress. I'd say Jesus literally taking on the sins of every person who had, or would or will live which includes the sorrow and pain that goes along with sin was more than we mere humans could have done...Then he pretty much gives his life as a sacrifice for that sin so that the demands of justice could be made along with the demands of mercy.

You are going to find nit picky things about anything. But its pretty apparent that Joseph Smith himself didn't write it. Its a legitimate record.


Now there’s a claim I’d like to see you support. What, to you, proves that Joseph Smith didn’t write it and that it is a legitimate record?

Jeanie: It rings true to me when I read it. Even Joseph Smith mentions in his testimony of it that if there are mistakes they are from the foibles of men (my words). We have witnesses who handled and touched the plates. I believe its a true record of the peoples who were here in the Americas who came over from Jersalem just like it says. I feel the spirit when I read it. It clarifies doctrines in the Bible which are confusin or in need of better interpretation. And it is "another testament of Jesus the Christ." I HAVE prayed about it to know if it is true. I've heard people say (religious people) that you can't trust that...(yet they do with regards to other things). Maybe some people, though, don't even know how to pray and know and recognize hearing and feeling the spirit when they do? Honestly, with all due respect (and I do have a lot of respect for most of the Christians on here) the churches just don't have the full picture or the "fullness of " the Gospel. We have so much more guidance in every facet of our lives. The church is guided by revelation and inspired leaders. Heck, I was inspired myself just today. I felt an urgency to find some gas and called around learning that one Shell station was open. I headed out to also deposit a check and before I got there I found a cheaper, closer one which actually had Premium which we need for our mercedes. I got there - waited a bit and then once I filled up with premium, they literally ran out. I got the last of the premium. Then I called my daughter and had her bring the pacifica. She came a bit later and said they said they only had about 200 gallons left. I came out of Kroger where not a car was there. They were out of gas that quick. I was inspired to go down there when I did!

And it speaks of a people we didn't even know about till long after it was found. (People didn't know about the ruins in SA, certainly Joseph Smith did not! He was a barely educated, poor boy.

Can you cite chapter and verse on this and I’ll have a look at it.

Jeanie: It wasn't from the Book of Mormon (chapter and verse). Just referring to the ruins....probably stated poorly. (I'm sure you know something about that you'll refute... : ) Here, I;ll refute myself. Actually when I referred to people we didn't know of, its more civilizatoins...like ancient ones. Discovered in Peru, The Mayas, Aztecs.

The whole reason I even looked into Mormonism was because of the whole "hell" issue. Just didn't ring true to me. Not the way I was being taught it. I have a concept of God being a loving Father and couldn't buy the way he was being represented.

I had similar problems with the bible when I was a believer. LOL I guess I just took things a bit further than you did when I decided to look elsewhere for answers.

Jeanie: Well, I was about to give up on organized religion when I met an LDS girl I became friends with....

As far as the tools, etc., IMO people were a lot more advanced at times than we may have any idea. A written history, to me, is a lot more impressive than things that people have to dig up.

It may be though given the number of artefacts from that time that we have it seems very improbable but we certainly can’t rule it out. We can, however, say that we have no evidence to support the notion. It’s easy to imagine that an uneducated poor boy would get some of the details wrong and have tools and technology that were beyond the abilities of the people he was portraying in his story. That is certainly more plausible than the idea that god left gold magical gold plates in a backyard in Palmira New York to be found years later by Joseph IMHO. At least the idea that Joseph Smith made it up doesn’t break any major laws of physics and we know that people lie and deceive and are deluded or crazy at times.

Jeanie: To be honest, when I first learned about Joseph Smith I was irritated that they thought so highly of him (now I understand why and that he is NOT placed above Jesus Christ) but, at the time, I thought he was "ok" because I related with him. I was only 15 when I found the church. I was a deep kid.... I really did look into it. We didn't have the internet, (which is great, but there is also a lot of bogus information out there, too) but I'd read the Bible and was trying to figure out why there were so many different interpretations of the Bible - and which was right. My evangelist Uncle gave me a Scofield Bible for my birthday (14th I think) and I got things out of it, but it still didn't ring true. My Uncle was pretty judgmental, too. Told me something about how God would destroy my temple if I defiled it. He was rough on his son, my cousin, too. He died quite mad at me because I joined the church. I tried several different denominations and something was missing. I needed guidance...didn't have much from home (none, actually) and did settle for a while on my sister's church that she went to with her husband. This one taught some pretty rediculous things about hell. And when I asked a man there about life after death he just told me "we don't need to worry about what it's like...we just need to worry about getting there." That just really bothered me which is why I loved the song Hymn for the Dude's by Mott the Hoope. (v. sweet instant christians, you are, such a, sly, clown - too many questions, no replies now.... I use to always relate my life with songs... One of my favorites was Wildflower by Skylark. Don't know how old you are, but it was a hit in 73 when I was 13. Oddly enough I ended up marrying the guitar player from the band and married him : ) (I'm a romantic). I don't know if blokes like yourself know much about the English, but David Foster (Sir David Foster) is from British Columbia but has been knighted. He has played with and or produced groups from the Beatles to Michael Jackson...

Anyway, I have believed strongly in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints since then. I faltered for about 24 hours once when some polygamists got hold of me and got me confused. This guy made me mad. He told me he wanted me to meekly and quietly speak while I was going off on him at one point. I found out later these 2 guys had been ex'd even from their apostate church for having orgies with his wives. (That was NOT how it worked even when they did do it in the early days of the church. Now, some of that, has been a hard pill to swallow for me at times....but I've read a lot on it and feel fine about it. I don't like being associated with the groups living it now, though. Its kind of strange. Our pioneers back then dressed that way from the era..but they are living like its still the era even. They dress like the Amish. Worse...just strange. I like the Amish.

Not too much can throw me off, but if you have any other comments, go for it. I do want to look into what you have brought up, still.

All the best to you too : ) I've fallen asleep about 5 times writing this. Hope it sounds lucid.

Jeanie

















On the other hand, there are lots of evidences that verify what the BofM talks about. However, as with the Bible, you do have to pray about whether its true or not and someone who doesn't even believe in God is not likely to do that at this point at least.

If there is evidence then prayer is not needed, show me the evidence. I’m open to evidence, good evidence, that’s what I base my ‘beliefs’ on. But you’re right, I’m not about to start praying about it any time soon. I gave that up long ago.

LOL did you know that Joseph Smith also appears to quote Shakespeare in 2 Nephi 1:14. "From whence no traveller can return" is a line from Hamlet. Coincidence maybe.

I appreciate you even entertaining the idea, though. Check out Third Nephi, sometime...

I’ll have a look when I get time. I seem to remember that it too had a few historical problems but I don’t remember the details.

All the best Jeanie

Russell [/quote]