R2: Hi Jeanie

Don’t get me wrong, I was a chrstian for some time and I understand what it is that christians believe as much as most typical christians do at least. When I ask these questions I’m trying to get you to look at your beliefs from a different angle. God created the system in its every detail according to the bible. Under that system the humans he created fell exactly as he knew that they would. He’s claimed to be all knowing so he must have known this.

Jeanie: Yep, he did know. Actually Adam and Eve made the right choice, but he had to let it be their choice and he warned them of the consequences so they knew what they were doing. Eve, at least, realized it was right after she did it. (It may be that satan did originally beguile her). But she did come to the realization she did the right thing. If they hadn't fallen, they would have had no seed and this way they were able to choose (and know) good from evil. In the garden before the fall, they were still in God's presence. He walked and talked with Adam, but the whole point of coming to earth was to gain bodies and to learn to choose with faith. Once Adam and Eve fell the earth also fell quite literally from its place in the heavens when it took its present place in the solar system. In fact, that could be why some of the story of the creation does not seem to jive. And the test began....

R2: They have since fallen into disfavour with him a number of times and been destroyed by him. It appears self evidence that killing everyone, man, woman, child, infant, foetus is a bad thing given that many of them are not old enough to have committed any sins yet god chooses this way of going about things. Not just once or twice either but time and again killing is his chosen method of achieving his ends.

Jeanie: The original time of destroying - the flood - also served as a baptism for the earth. As far as killing of the innocent as well - we don't believe men are responsible for their actions until they reach the age of accountability which is 8. It's interesting, but I've observed my own kids and other's (unless handicapped some way in which it doesn't apply) and they DO change at that point. It's like they start to have a real conscience or something. But anyone who dies before that goes straight to the celestial kingdom.... As far as anyone else, I believe God sees things on an eternal level and, sometimes, its better for the greater good and our eternal welfare to cut things short. He knows what he's doing. Not sure what you are speaking of, exactly, other than the flood, though, because mostly he has just let us destroy each other. When the earth is again cleansed by fire, it will be to prepare the earth for Jesus' millenial reign where wickedness will not be. (Not saying only Mormons will be there either, though).

R2: Then we get to the jesus story. We can only be saved if we kill his son. Would you hold any father that demanded that of you in high regard?

Jeanie: Well, he did also hold Abraham to that or at least he was made to think so for a time. I've wondered about that. But it taught Abraham what the atonement was about....he supplied a lamb in Isaac's stead and taught Abraham that it was a similitude of the sacrifice Jesus was going to make. (The sacrificing of lambs). Once Abraham proved he trusted in the Lord enough to do that, though, to obey God at all cost, the Lord had proved him to the point he had his calling and election made sure. In other words, he knew he had arrived, so to speak, and that was when Abraham was given his greatest blessings. As far as Jesus Christ's sacrifice...that is all about the atonement - and Jesus volunteered for the job in the premortal life. He literally took upon himself all the pain and suffering for the whole world. Actually if I understand right, his sacrifice also applies to other worlds He has to do with. But we were the only earth evil enough to actually kill our Lord and Savior. We are the most severely tested of other worlds.....because the most noble of spirits come to this earth (as well as those less valiant) in order to prove ourselves. Abraham was a "noble and great one" and, actually, many of us are, especially those born this day and age. These are the last days, the closing up times before His second coming. Evil is strong in the earth, but so is the spirit of the Lord. Righteousness is also increasing along with the wicked. The atonement actually began in the Garden of Gethsemane where Christ bled from every pore. Some don't fully understand that Christ not only took on the sins of every human who ever had or would live, but also the pain and sorrow. He met the demands of justice with his sacrifice in the garden as well as his crucifixion so that, if we repent, etc., we will not have to pay the price for our sins eternally and can be forgiven in this life and in the next. AND he overcame death..... Because of Him, all of us, ALL of us will be resurrected. But we will go to lesser kingdoms if we do not accept His gospel. (And even in the Celestial Kingdom there will be degrees of glory). Other's have also been crucified or suffered horrible deaths, but no mere human could have endured what he did in the Garden when he bled from every pore. The JAMA (Journal of the American Medical Association) had an article in it which analyzed on a medical basis exactly what that conditions he suffered were. Bleeding from pores is a rare phenomenon which happens with severe trauma... And He bled from EVERY pore. It was in that weakened condition when his skin was so delicate from the bleeding that he was flogged. His skin tore even worse becaues of it. Actually even his physical suffering was beyond what a human could endure because he chose when to give up the ghost. (His spirit). It's hard for me to think about. But it was the ultimate act of love. It was not easy for Heavenly Father to let that happen, but in doing so Jesus overcame the world and became Jesus the Christ - our Savior and Redeemer. He is now in great glory and all will know Him and bow before Him and confess that He is the Christ....

R2: Really?

Think hard about that one point.

Jeanie: I have. And I'm in awe....

R2: God created the rules under which our only path to heaven involves his own son being painfully put to death.

Is that a moral way to behave?

Jeanie: See above.

R2: Now given that god is all powerful and all knowing (according to the bible) why would he not just create the perfect world he is heading towards in the first place rather than go through all of this suffering and killing in the interim on the way there. It must be in his power if he is all powerful and he must know enough to be able to get there in one step without the killing and suffering inherent in this approach or he is not all knowing. I can’t even begin to comment on the idea that a father would require that his son be killed before he could accept those who murdered him. That one goes beyond all reason to even consider and how any one could consider such a being not just moral but the epitome of morality is something I will never understand.

Jeanie: Yes, God could've just given it all to us, but we would not have made our own choices to choose good over evil. It was easy to choose the right while in God's presence like before in the premortal life, but in order for us to really grow, we needed the opportunity to come to earth and have bodies and learn to live through faith. Its kind of like the equivalent of sending our kids away to college where they become their own person. Its the choosing against temptation that purifies us. Lucifer wanted us to come to earth and HE be our savior. He wanted to basically force us all to return so none would be lost. But it would have taken away our free agency. Actually, if you are here and have a body (which you do) you accepted the plan of salvation in the premortal life as a spirit. (Those who rebelled and followed satan did not get that opportunity and will never have bodies). If you listen to your spirit and the Holy Ghost, they will whisper to you that this is true. Your spirit inside you is the part of you which knows. And it is the part of you which will, again, separate from your earthly tabernacle and be set free when you die. Then it will again be reunited once we are all resurrected, but the kingdom you end up in will be determined by your faithfulness to these truths. There is perfect fairness in the plan. Even those who have died without a knowledge will be taught the truth in the spirit world and, still, have the chance to accept the Gospel of Jesus Christ. That is why we perform proxy baptisms and other saving ordinances for our dead. It does not force them to accept the Gospel nor does it join them to the church or is not in force without their acceptance in the spirit world, though.

Anyway - Jesus did what He did for us because He chose to...because he loves us. He has throughout the eternities and we have known him that long. Our minds just don't remember. It is why you have to listen with your heart and spirit....