With this thread, I hope to shed more light on this subject.

Question: Does anyone know who the first preacher of the gospel was? A woman.

When Mary found Christ not in the tomb, and Christ showed Himself as being alive. What did Christ tell Mary to do? Go tell the other apostles I have risen. That friends is preaching. And any place that where believers are gathered can be considered a church. So when Mary came unto them and told them the news, she was preaching the gospel to a group.

And to confirm this even more. Christ appeared to them to back up what Mary preached.

Also, here is a verse to confirm this:

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

What this means is that no ministry can have the drawing power to Christ and salvation unless Father God first approves. Now you might say: Well that don't work because there are some ministries that are just wrong. So let's ponder something for a minute...

Are we perfect? Is your denomination perfect? Is your preacher perfect? No?

What this means is that for our imperfections, God has to leave some leeway. So how much leeway? We don't know because it's not outright said in the Bible. But, God did leave us an example when He said:

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

So God's approval of having drawing power is the first sign. Why?

Matthew 12:26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?

Satan cannot be a part of something that brings people to Christ because he would be casting himself out of that person's life. So the second sign is that if power to draw people into receiving the free gift exists, then Satan is not a part of that ministry

This does not mean that a ministry that draws people cannot be wrong on some issues. But it does mean that God is allowing the drawing power because His leeway for imperfection supersedes what we think is right. And when He allows this, we should not talk badly of a ministry just because we disagree with it. Instead we should pray for them.

This same issue also applies to music ministries. You may not like some of the music that is applied to Christian lyrics. But if that music ministry draws people in for salvation, it's God allowing His leeway which supersedes what we think.

So do you think that all other Christians have to act and think like you or I do to be saved or be the correct ministry? You'd be wrong.

luke 9:49 And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.

50 And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.

Not everyone will believe as you or I do. And not everyone is going to have understanding and knowledge as everyone else does. But Christ is not going to judge us that way. If we are for Him, then how could we be against him? That is what Christ looks for. And perfection is not a requirement for salvation. So if we judge others by how well they can preach from their knowledge. Then we are truly missing the point Christ is trying to make.

Because if perfection and knowledge are required to some degree, then the mentally challenged are already condemned. Ponder that one.

Part 2: People and ministries that are wrong, but have the love of Christ in their heart.


After the tribulation, and we are on the 1000 year reign. Can anyone tell me why Christ is going to reign with a rod?

rev 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

What this means is that our imperfection, like mentioned in the first post, will ne corrected. The rod is the representation of correction. Just like it says:

prov 13:24 He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.

And when we are saved, we are all sons and daughters of Christ. So the thousands years is for our benefit to correct our imperfections of our denominational teachings.

Our salvation is not based on being 100% right. It is based on whether we accepted His gift. And loved Him enought to do His kingdom works (conditions of the covenant).

Now I know some of you are thinking: Is he promoting works to get to heaven? Nope. I did say you have to accept His free gift did I not? But let's take this a little further.

A covenant is a promise made between two people. Each side has a promise to keep. Even though Christ can never break his promise, we often break ours by committing sin. It's our imperfections that make us do this. But it is His forgivness that allows us to stay in the covenant.

But there are some things required of us that if we do not do them. We will suffer. What are they?



These things we are supposed to do are:

1) Give someone meat who is hugry for it (meat of the word).
2) Give someone drink when they are thirsty for it (milk of the word).
3) Take someone in when they are a stranger (a unsaved sinner is a stranger to the word and salvation).

Now the above is the trinity of the works (our conditions) that we are supposed to do for the kingdom. Now for the rest.

1) Naked (we are supposed to provide cloths for the poor).
2) Sick (we are supposed to take care of the sick).
3) In prison (We are supposed to visit those who are in prison).

These are the works (conditions) while we are on earth. Why do them? When we do them we are showing the love of Christ. And through that love we plant seeds, and can help others to know Christ.

So the separation of the sheep from the goats is because some Christians will not do the works of the kingdom, nor the works we are supposed to do on earth. These are the only things these people are being judged for. What does that mean?

1) All that stand before Christ entered into the covenant. Why? How can Christ condemn or welcome anyone who did not if this is the only thing these people were judged on?

James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

You see, knowledge of sin makes sin a sin. So how can the unsaved sinner be condemned for a sin of not doing a covenant condition he knew not of? So everyone at the throne of Christ is saved. Not one unsaved sinner. And if you think there is, name one verse that show specifically that anyone one person was: Pulled from Hell or any other unsaved place?

Besides, why would some people be pulled from hell for one judgement, then pulled from hell fo the other judgement?

Note: There is no old or new testment hell. When you are in there, you are in there for a reason.

So there is only one judgement for those in hell. And that is the Great White Throne judgement.

But who are the goats, and what happens to them?

Who?

1) They are the ones who did not do the trinity of conditions of works for the kingdom.
2) They are the ones who did not do the trinity of conditions of works we are supposed to do here on earth that makes us shine like a light for Christ.

What happens to them?

Because there is what is called the works Judgement. Where the conditions (works) of the covenant are tested by fire. they have one more chance.

1cor 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Now you might think that this goes against scripture by making another way to heaven. it does not, and here is why:

Christ came to earth to make the covenant for sin upon earth. So His covenant is valid while we are on earth until we are judged. After judgement, the ones who receive punishment are no longer held to the covenant because they broke it. Understand so far? This is why they are being punished (corrected).

Now if the ones who works are being burned are saved by fire. Where is the only place a person can burn? Is there a place in heaven with fire, or is that place in hell? So you see, for the goats hell becomes a place of correction. Why? Because they knew what they were supposed to do but refused to do it.

So how are they saved by fire?

rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

The word "whosoever" in that verse leaves possibility. What this means is that some at the great white throne will go to heaven. God's word does not lie, right? So whosoever cannot be there unless there is a condition that allows some to enter heaven at this point.

So let's first understand that there are 3 types of people in hell (a trinity).

1) Those who knew about christ, but rejected Him.
2) Those who never knew, and never heard.
3) The goats who were judged in the first judgement.

Out of the three, only one group is assured for hell. And that is those who had knowledge of Christ but rejected Christ. What is it that helps out the number two people who never knew Christ? Or even heard Christ?

James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

Not knowing christ, is not knowing the conditions of sin. So not having the knowledge of sin makes them innocent. So therefore they have a chance at heaven in this judgement.

And what helps out the number three who are the goats? Being saved by fire.

you see this also answers a question that has not been answerable until now.

Why did Christ preach in Hell when He went there? What did He preach? He preached the gospel. Now can Christ deceive or lie to someone? No. So if He was preaching a sermon of hope to the hopeless, He was lying. But, if He was preaching a sermon of hope so they knew there was hope. He was not lying. So now we know why Christ preached in hell. Because whosoever in hell name appears in the book of life shall go to heaven.

DUDE...I think the Holy Ghost has been teaching someone. Seriously - that is some good doctrine you've figured out there!!!

I scanned through a bit toward the end instead of reading thoroughly, but you've got some keen insight IMO!!

One note: we refer to the word of God as the iron rod! And thanks for honoring women!!

(Are you a dude?)

As far as the mentally challenged - we believe kids are accountable at the age of 8.... In the case of the mentally handicapped (retarded below that level) or those who die before that point, they go straight to the celestial kingdom. They are, in actuality, choice spirits who have not had to be tested in this life. In the case of those who had diminished capacities due to toxins, choices, etc., or even trauma, I believe they will have all things taken into accountability concerning the judgment.

Ikester:

And what helps out the number three who are the goats? Being saved by fire.

you see this also answers a question that has not been answerable until now.

Why did Christ preach in Hell when He went there? What did He preach? He preached the gospel. Now can Christ deceive or lie to someone? No. So if He was preaching a sermon of hope to the hopeless, He was lying. But, if He was preaching a sermon of hope so they knew there was hope. He was not lying. So now we know why Christ preached in hell. Because whosoever in hell name appears in the book of life shall go to heaven.

Jeanie: What are your concepts of hell? I would personally term "hell" as spirit prison...People there now are still being preached to. Missionary work continues beyond the grave.

I'm glad someone sees it. It all started with my frustration in explaining the creation message. So I prayed and ask for the wisdom that Solomon ask for but concerning things about the Bible. It did not come right away because for any gift there is always a test to see if you are worthy to receive it. But it's really a test to see if you are ready to receive it. This is because some knowledge can destroy faith because we have not learned to discern things our-self.

I believe there is a point in our walk with Christ that we no longer need denominational teachings. This is where we go at it alone and separate the wheat from the chaff. I'm not saying that denominations are bad. They lay the foundation for our faith. But what I am saying is that there is a point in which to grow in our walk with Christ, we have to go at it alone. Putting something like a denomination between Christ and yourself when you are mature enough in your faith to start winging yourself off. I think hinders more than helps.

That is why I'm non-denominational. It allows me to more adhere to the word than it does a denomination. In this way I become more one with the word which helps me grow. And less with man's interpretation of it.

This has allowed me to not only be closer to God. But find answers for questions that no one seems to know. And in finding these answers, I find what I'm looking for. Plus I can help others.



Becoming more one with the word, and less one with denominational teaching is what has brought me this far. I can teach you how to do it. But it's not easy because it requires a lot of letting go and becoming neutral so that the word can speak to you. And it requires one to become very familiar with deductive reasoning using the word of God as the template.

In a way it like rebuilding you faith to a point that it becomes so strong, nothing can shake it. Relaying a faith foundation that is stronger than the one you have now. Faith so strong you could look death in the face like the girl at Columbine did. And when asked if you believe God knowing you will die if you say yes. You would not bat an eye at your response. Not saying that would ever happen. But knowing your faith is build like that makes you not afraid of facing the world and all the evils in it.



No problem. And yes I am a dude LOL. I believe that women should preach, teach, be president, etc... The Bible only makes it clear that woman is second only to man in marriage. And it also makes it clear that man should respect his wife and never abuse her. Physically, or verbally.

I think even within denominations you have to figure out things for yourself... or at least verify and pray about questions. We're all supposed to study scriptures and learn how they apply to our own lives. I've found myself thinking things through and then have that very subject touched on afterward at church. Kind of cool. It helps me realize I'm on track and in tune with the spirit.

We believe men only hold the Priesthood. But women create life. Its a fair trade off. We consider ourselves equal partners in marriage... men are supposed to lead but only as he follows God and leads with righteousness). Not put quite right, but you get the point. (Why Eve was symbolically taken from man's rib - we walk beside man). I'm a bit of a wild cat I'm afraid an am the first one to correct anyone bossing me around..... : )

Well, whatever opinions we may have, in the end it's God who is in charge. If He Himself has ordained men to the priesthood by example of the apostles, then it really isn't up for dispute unless Christ changes the old rule Himself. He has His reasons and alot of these things are also tests for humility and obedience, also.

I don't see how this restricts women from ever preaching the gospel? I am not certain of anything that condemns such a thing. But as for ordination into the priesthood? It depends upon what Christ instituted/orchestrated, not what we decide, or the times decide. Christ Himself is the only one who can do that.

Both sexes are equally important, but there are "some" things that God has ordained specifically for each and perhaps there are some men who may feel irritated that they have not been given the gift of having a child grow inside of them....

There are some women so embittered by the gender roles, that they have decided "God is a she", even though the bible specifically points out "He" over and over again. The Father and the Son are not female, and the Holy Spirit is a "He". Consider Mary's conception of Jesus and how this came about!

God did not require using anybody for anything, but He has His reasons and I think that's good enough for me! Other than that, we do plenty of things that men do and vice versa....there is no reason for any female to ever feel hard done by these days.

If one wishes to commit their life to Christ in a holy order, women can readily become Nuns if they choose. How is this any less a role? In God's eyes, each of us is highly important and of all people who could have presented Himself in blazing glory, Christ came instead in humility! Not a stallion He rode upon, but a donkey. He has given us the example of obedience/humility and if we wish to become "great", we must become "small". It is about serving one another and accepting what Christ has ordained/commanded. Yes we have free will to rebel against that, but I am not at all threatened by what God feels is best (at least for now). Until he changes the old rule, it still applies (just as the ten commandments do).

No offense to either of you.

No offense taken Bex! I agree! Women do preach (teach) in our church. Actually our Bishop sometimes speak as well as other leaders, but generally people from the congregation are assigned different topics which they speak on for Sacrament meetings. And women do hold leadership roles except only within the Primary organization, (children's), the Young Woman organization and the Relief Society, the woman's organization. But we speak right alongside the men as far as that is concerned. The Bishopric, however, oversees the meetings and directs affairs and is over all the organizations in leadership on a ward level. There is leadership above that level till you get to the First Presidency, too. We have woman general authorities, too, within the previously stated organizations. We just have different gender assignments. Wasn't meaning to sound proud.... I just don't like unrighteous dominion or - admittedly - being bossed around.... That partly goes back to my background as an adult child of an alcoholic, though. I'm the youngest in my family. I resist "control freak" types but that is just my personal personality... It has served me well in that I don't accept what Doctors say at their word, etc. etc. I totally agree about God being in charge....Of course.

I don't take offense about this. People are going to believe what they want. But ponder this. The word "Prophetess" would not exist if the position of a woman reaching this level were not allowed.



Prophetess is mentioned seven times in seven verse. Never was a prophetess stoned. But in one verse, one woman self proclaimed herself as a prophetess. Which means she was not appointed as such. and we all know how she died because of her evil and wickedness.



So what does a Prophet do? Someone who speaks by divine inspiration; someone who is an interpreter of the will of God.

So what makes a Prophetess different? She is a woman who does the same thing.

So if you name all the famous male Prophets of the Bible, and what they did, The names of the Prophetess would go along with them.

Now if we study this verse:

2kings 22:14 So Hilkiah the priest, and Ahikam, and Achbor, and Shaphan, and Asahiah, went unto Huldah the prophetess, the wife of Shallum the son of Tikvah, the son of Harhas, keeper of the wardrobe; (now she dwelt in Jerusalem in the college;) and they communed with her.

Priest and other men going to a prophetess to commune with her is showing approval of her position. Because if that position was not approved of. Then the priest who went would have lost his priesthood. And could have been possibly stoned and his family put to shame.

In God's word, something is not going to be shown approved of, with no disapproval, if it is wrong. Never once is an "appointed" prophetess ever stoned or spoken negative about.

Hi Ikester, I'm not simply "believing what I want", I am well aware women have prophecised and still do. That's fine, that not actually what I was aiming my post at. I was mentioning the ordination of priests. Which started from Saint Peter and the other apostles, all of which were appointed by Christ, all men and for a reason until Christ Himself alters that tradition. Not one of them was a woman. Christ has His reasons and if He intended on any being women, He would have lead by example.

As for women preaching the word of God and prophecising, I see no issue with that, as the bible clearly indicates this has always been so. Women have strong positions in the church and to me it is not about ego, or status, it is simply obeying Christ and where best He feels our roles are.

Preaching/prophecising etc etc, we have many women who do both, as well as men, I can't see the issue with that at all. Biblically it's obviously fine.

Totally.... The only distinction we make is that only someone with proper authority and the keys to guide the church can prophecy on its account. Everyone has the ability to receive revelation within their own sphere of responsibility.

ikester,

I see that you are showing how the sheep and goats parable fits in with the "saved by grace" theology. I think you are making a lot of sense with it.

However, I am having a little problem understanding it completely.

Are people who come to Christ before they die, not required to be judged as sheep or goats? From what you wrote, it seems that both saved and unsaved people will be judged by that standard and punished in the same way.

The problem is that some hear preaching of Christ and sin, yet still don't believe. They don't believe a particular act is a sin. I understand willful disobedience requires severe punishment, but what about those who simply don't see that Christ is the Savior even though they have heard (but not comprehended) the Gospel message? Do they get that second chance after they die?

Example: Buddhists who follow their religion's teaching will meet the requirements of the sheep and goats parable. However, they don't believe that Christ is the Son of God. Of course they will confess that He is once they are at the judgment. So what judgment will they receive?

Makes sense...so that these "innocents" will have a chance to be saved. I would say that they have a better chance than those who are witnessed to here on Earth because they will see Christ and Hell for themselves so there is no doubt. However, this seems to be an argument to stop preaching the Gospel so that less people have a chance to reject Him. Let's face it, if you're in a lake of boiling lava and some guy is standing on the shore saying "follow me and I will get you out of there", you're not going to think twice about following Him.

BTW: Could you provide the Bible passages that show Christ did/will preach in Hell?

I should probably point out first that I'm not exactly a Christian, I wasn't baptized or raised under any religious doctrine but I've always found it an interesting topic. Nevertheless I'm probably venturing into uncharted territory here so please bear that in mind



I side with Bex on this one. Traditionally, women have often held the position of priest, witch, prophet, etc. In some instances, depending on the culture and the religion in question, to the exclusion of men. There's even a word in the English language which specifically refers to a female version of a prophet. Sybil. I think if you look at we as humans from a hunter/gatherer standpoint you'll see that women have often been viewed as somehow possessing a more spiritual mindset. Now whether that's true or not is a different story but I can see why women should be given ample opportunity to wield spiritual power within the religious community.

I can't for the life of me remember what these people were called but during the Middle Ages there were a select few within the Christian church who would become hermits of a sort, entombing themselves within a section of the church and posing as a guide/counsel to people who came to see them (through a hole in the wall). The person lived off whatever pilgrims fed them. Anyway, if memory serves they were typically women. It seems kind of freaky but imagine how mysterious such a person would be, someone who is forevermore part of the church walls itself! And I'm pretty sure they did their fair share of preaching to passersby.

Everyone stands judgement.



For two reasons some will, some won't.

1) For God to be no respecter of persons means He "has to" treat everyone fairly in judgement. Regardless of what any person claims, He will already know whether they had the opportunity or not. There won't be anyone skating by. Fo God to make "any" person more able to enter heaven or hell becuase of like or dislike, He from that point forward becomes an unjust judge.

2) Being a just judge means that God gives everyone equal chance. He has the line drwn already to where a person can enter heaven or hell even before each person appears before him. The judgement here will not be like it is on earth. There won't be innocent people in jail (hell) like we have here. And there won't be guilty people roaming free (in heaven) like we have here.

The rules for the judgement are already laid out. Just like man lays out the laws of the land for one amother. Except here, there are no witnesses needed. Your life is already known. And it will be shown what you did when given the oportunity, and what you thought as well. That is something the courts here on earth cannot do.

Example 1: What if you could actually see what someone was thinking at the time they committed a murder? What if you saw that they not only did it, but through their thoughts actually enjoyed it?

Example 2: Let's say there were no witnesses to a crime. But you could look into that person's mind and see if they did it or not. How would that change things? No one on this earth would get away with anything. And no one who was innocent who be punished for something they did not do.

These are the things that make God:
1) No respecter of persons. Because he can see all. Even into you heart and mind.
2) A just judge. Which means no one goes to where they are not supposed to.

Now how just would judgement be on earth if any of us actually had the ability to judge like that? So God will know who had the chance and did not take it. God will know who did not truly understand what was being offerred. God will know who never had a chance. And God will know who knew it all, and has no excuse.

Arguing and pleading with God will make no difference because he will know what you did even before you appear before Him. But, being a just judge, He also has to show you why you get what ever judgement you get.

How would you feel if our court system could run like that? You'd be highly impressed as I would also. But also know for those who think the judgement of God is like it is here on earth. And that some how a lawyer will appear and get them off for the things thet did. It won't happen.



If they truly "never" heard of Christ. Or did not have access to the word. Then God will alow them to pass through the fire to be judged on the other end. Remember, I can only speculate how God will look at people like this. But being just means that He has to look at people who never had the chance as innocent.




1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

Just and the unjust means that the innocent of the unjust, Christ had to die for their sins also. Innocent are those who never had the knowledge, or option to choose Christ.

I finally remembered what they were called, it was on the tip of my tongue the entire time

An anchoress.

Very strange indeed....

Should women preach or could a women teach.

Should Women Teach? ... The Final Word .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e988cBOC5Yw

Women In The Church: The Contradiction .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZiT-J-70qk

Yes... Women did and could in Scripture.
TicToc Ministries..

Should women preach or could a women teach.

Should Women Teach? ... The Final Word .

---------------------------
It is totally Scriptual that women can and did preach in the Bible. You can go down to the Bytes secion and read "Corrie ten Boom / "Clippings from My Notebook", 'Should Women Preach?'

Corrie ten Boom won thousands of people to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. She was a prisoner of Ravenbruck Concentration Camp, and was released... 'by mistake'?, No Jehovah God does not make mistakes. Check it out! Let there be no doubt, "God uses people".

Women did it back then and women are doing it now of course. So many interesting women preachers and teachers on T.V and on the web too. I like Theresa Garcia as well. She's real good!

Signs in The Sky TGM .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQsJqvRwRaM

I like many many male preachers and teachers too but female ones help me also to feel like more part of the flock as in being more inclusive as one big family of God. Male and female joined together as one.