Here is a video that will explain who really brought about flat earth and added to creation and why.



http://www.christiananswers.net/q-aig/aig-c034.html
http://hsci.ou.edu/exhibits/exhibit.php?exbgrp=-999&exbid=45&exbpg=20
http://www.discovery.org/a/2587
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth_mythology

To research this all you have to do is take the names mention, put them in a search engine and add the words Flat earth. And you will find out that to this day this lie is very much alive. And atheists are not very much interested in the truth about it because it's works so well in making all Christians look stupid.

I call it: lying for the advancement of evolution.

I've seen a few atheists/evolutionists use the same line regarding the flat earth. It's a pretty common one. Encountered it on a few sites (youtube being one) in the comments. I just rolled my eyes and thought here we go again. I then asked the individuals to give chapter and verse and I was not answered. Haven't had an answer yet. If any evolutionist can tell me where the bible preaches it? I'll be open to look and read, but so far I've not seen it, but rather the opposite. The bible preaches the earth as a sphere!

That's not all it preaches too. There are quotes in the bible that have been there long before man was able to verify it and understand it properly via modern technology. I'll hunt down the book that gives the quote and verses for this, it's interesting to say the least.

They use the verses that contain the saying: "Four corners", and the "ends of the earth"

is 11:12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

rev 7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

Four corners are four directions just like the four winds blow from on the earth.

There are 28 verses that have the phrase: "ends of the earth". Here is one example...

is 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

So the question that evolutionist like to ask is: Where is the ends of a sphere? The answer: Where do you grab a ball when you grab it? From a visual preference, you are grabbing it by the ends.

The answer is simple, ikester,

People who thought the earth was flat thought it up. There are many such mythologies: google "turtles all the way down" for some interesting side information (including some other major religions that do have a flat earth model).

This is a more complex question, but one that I start by asking Charles K. Johnson, president of the International Flat Earth Research Society:

It seems that this fundamentalist literal Christian believes it is part of creation. I wonder that you hate his belief so much as this post shows.

Only atheists that are poorly versed in logic, as this involves the logical fallacy of equivocating part with the whole while ignoring other beliefs. If you like, I will be happy to point out to any atheists that use this argument that it is a post hoc ergo propter hoc logical fallacy.

Several mythologies\beliefs depict a flat earth
Some people believe the earth is flat
Some flat earth believers are christians

Not all christians believe the earth is flat
Not all flat-earthers are christians

There is no correlation from one to the other.

One wonders why you hate evolution so much.

You actually agree that change in hereditary traits in populations from generation to generation occurs, and you actually agree that speciation occurs. That is evolution.

What you seem to have most trouble with are things like the age of the earth, geological evidence, and astrophysics ... not evolution. Calling all these people evolutionists is exactly the same logical error as would be committed by an atheist claiming that all creationists think the world is flat.

Enjoy.

Sorry RADZ, your posts don't count.

Why don't RAZD's posts count anymore?

In order to prevent myself from being placed in the same category, may I ask what RAZD wrote that got him onto your non-response list?

Of course, if I am already there too, I will have to remain uninformed.

The four corners deal IS scientific....but presently it is so far recessed into my memory banks I would have to figure out where I've read that to explain why....)other than scripture). If I remember right off the top of my head, it has something very real to do with the atmosphere...but can't remember. It's not as weird as it sounds. Basing a flat earth theory on that scripture, however, is obviously preposterous. I would have to think the guy who started that is playing with people... ?? My only explanation.

I don't mean RAZD either...the guy RAZD is talking about. (Playing with people). I can't believe any one would believe that. Maybe depending on how you look at it???

I know of Job 26:7 where Job says God suspended the earth on nothing. However, I am unaware of the passages that say the earth is a sphere or a ball.

That would be interesting. Does it belong on this thread or should you start another one in the Bible forum?

You are no where near doing what RADZ does. So don't worry about it.

Taken from:
101 scientific facts and foreknowledge

from Eternal Productions www.eternal-productions.org

Do you really think so ikester?

Thanks for the repsonse, ikester. Curiously, ignoring evidence does not make it go away. Nor does your opinion necessarily reflect the opinions of others.

You still have not explained how whatever I said was so "hateful" - it makes it hard for me to improve if I don't know what you find so upsetting. You went on a bit of a rampage posting a bunch of really irrelevant and intentionally insulting things as "examples" or how you perceive "getting even," yet most of them are still just more logical fallacies and misrepresentations than factual statements.

The only thing I can see is that you had one of your pet concepts invalidated by objective physical evidence that anyone could have posted, and you've taken it out on me because I was the one that told you.

Or you really misunderstood what I was trying to say.

Reality is not kind, it does not conform to anyone's wishes.

Enjoy.

bumping post up. Edited post and put in the verses/quotes I wanted earlier.

Quote

Reality is not kind, it does not conform to anyone's wishes.

Reality is what it is. Reality may well agree with what someone has been told or had passed down to them, or it may turn out out to oppose/contradict it. Some people hate their reality, others love their reality. I very much doubt that the wish for ownership over it or putting it in a box, will do anything to change it. :chiefwiggum:



one could also respond: Curiously, repeating words of "evidence" and "reality" may not make it so....nor does your opinion necessarily reflect the opinions of others. You're convinced (or at least hoping we think so) that you have evidence and totally confident of that? Then the info should be self evident, rather than requiring chants to prop it up. Do you not agree?

"the lady doth protesteth too much methinks"(or man) Trying to convince a person of something that the content itself may not be carrying off on its own "may" or "may not" account for why there is the ongoing need to call out "evidence" and "reality"? People aren't stupid, after awhile they may start to read for themselves and and come to their own conclusions. I would hope so.

Ongoing chants of "it won't make reality go away" etc may work for awhile, may look good, but after a time, it "may" start to come across as insecurity clothed in bravado. Even if that isn't so.

The information/content should be able to stand on its own and be self evident without the need for ongoing cheerleading commentaries. Surely presenting ones side of the argument, regardless of whether they think it's REALITY or not, should eventually be left to speak for itself?

Just an opinion. We could all be accused of doing a bit of that I know.

Bex, Those were some good quotes!!! I have to disagree on one, though. The number of stars are not finite...they are infinite. Didn't you also say that space was expanding? I'll type in some stuff to correspond with what you put.

Sorry, not finishing thoughts. When God said they were all numbered to him, those are only HIS stars... There are worlds without number....(Ones that also have life!)

Hi Jeanie. Innumberable to the finite mind, but counted by God . I'm sure we'll find out oneday just how many there really were! For now, with our modern technology and knowledge, we do our best.

Righto!!

Is this an attempt to equate yourself with evidence? Ikester is ignoring you.

It seems you don't want to cooperate. You continue to respond left & right. Although I don't have much experience ignoring in this manner, I'll make an effort to ignore your unwelcome responses to Ikester.

In the past, Linear had SoSick on his 'ignore list'. I don't see that feature now, and I'm guessing it didn't survive the upgrade. I haven't thoroughly checked for it - maybe it's just not in the dropdown on the poster's name. Now anyone wishing to dishonour Linear's automated ignorance could have simply quoted SoSick's posts; but we resisted the temptation.

Maybe, but it doesn't stop people from arguing with it when they don't want to accept what it is saying.

The Grand Canyon thread is a case in point. We've got evidence of what a flood-carved canyon looks like, features in the Grand Canyon which could not have been carved by a flood, land to the north and south of the canyon which is lower and where flood waters would have gravitated to, and cosmogenic and urianium dates which put the erosion of the Grand Canyon at millions of years old.

To most people, this does speak for itself. There are others who don't want to accept it, but they have not yet been able to explain why the above means that there was a global flood and that the Grand Canyon was carved by it.

Actually, this was probably PWCCA.

With nobody to defend him, one might expect this straw man to be easy prey, but like the rest of the Straw Legion, he roams freely from topic to topic.

Maybe you would like to explain at some point what your theory is, if I am misrepresenting it? I've asked you quite a few times now and you've been asked again on another thread. People who have nothing to hide are usually more forthcoming.

Sorry CTD,

You mistake my purpose in answering his (and your) posts. It is not to convince either of you to look at reality and objective evidence and understand the truth of what has occurred in the past as well as what occurs now.

Enjoy.

A viable scientific theory should be able to predict what will happen in the:

1) Past.
2) Present.
3) Future.

But yet there are no future models that show where we are going according to where we have been.

Like we never could've figured that out...

Not like all the was a big enough clue.
We just-a couple-a dopey morons :kookoo2:

I guess that blows probability and chaos theory out of the water then.

We may not be able to make specific predictions about what mutations will occur and what traits will survive, but this isn't where the predictive power of evolution lies -- though we can say with some certainty that any diseases will become resistant to any new widely used antibiotics.

These predictions do not have to be about things happening in the future. They can be "retrodictions" about things from the past that we have not found yet. Evolution allows innumerable predictions of this sort. For example:

Darwin predicted, based on homologies with African apes, that human ancestors arose in Africa. That prediction has been supported by fossil and genetic evidence.

Dawrin also predicted that a mechanism would be found which drives the changes in heritable traits over time; that mechanism is DNA.

Tiktaalik: A Case Study in Scientific Prediction (scroll down to p.7, though the rest of the info there is good too):



In other words, we can make predictions about faunal succession and look for fossils which match those predictions. Here is a case where we've found one.

Tell me, can you think of any predictions that creationism makes?

LindaLou:
Tell me, can you think of any predictions that creationism makes?

Moses 1:6. “All Things Are Present with Me”
Elder Neal A. Maxwell, a member of the Quorum of the
Twelve Apostles, explained: “God does not live in the
dimension of time as do we. We are not only hampered
by our finiteness (experiential and intellectual), but also
by being in the dimension of time. Moreover, God, since
‘all things are present’ with him, is not simply predicting
based solely on the past. In ways that are not clear to us,
he sees rather than foresees the future, because all things
are at once present before him” (Things As They Really Are
[1978], 29; see also Alma 40:8; D&C 130:4–7).
Concerning God’s knowledge of all things, the Prophet
Joseph Smith taught: “Without the knowledge of all
things God would not be able to save any portion of his
creatures; for it is by reason of the knowledge which he
has of all things, from the beginning to the end, that
enables him to give that understanding to his creatures by
which they are made partakers of eternal life; and if it
were not for the idea existing in the minds of men that
God had all knowledge it would be impossible for them to
exercise faith in him” (Lectures on Faith [1985], 51–52; see
also D&C 88:41; 93:8–36).
God’s foreknowledge of all things does not hinder or limit
our freedom to choose good or evil. Elder James E. Talmage,
who was a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles,
wrote: “Many people have been led to regard this
foreknowledge of God as a predestination whereby souls
are designated for glory or condemnation even before their
birth in the flesh, and irrespective of individual merit or
demerit. This heretical doctrine seeks to rob Deity of mercy,
justice, and love; it would make God appear capricious and
selfish, directing and creating all things solely for His own
glory, caring not for the suffering of His victims. How
dreadful, how inconsistent is such an idea of God! It leads
to the absurd conclusion that the mere knowledge of
coming events must act as a determining influence in
bringing about those occurrences. God’s knowledge of
spiritual and of human nature enables Him to conclude
with certainty as to the actions of any of His children
under given conditions; yet that knowledge is not of
compelling force upon the creature” (The Articles of Faith,
12th ed., [1924], 191).

The point of my above post is that PROPHETS know what will happen in the future. I could reiterate.....

I don't actually see any predictions here though Jeanie. Russ has talked about Biblical prophecies from time to time but unless you accept the Bible as the infallible and literal word of God, there are some problems with accepting religious prophecies at face value. What's more, those prophecies themselves are usually pretty ambiguous and can be interpreted in different ways. Why did some people think the world was going to end in the year 2000? Why do others think it's going to end in a rapture sometime soon? Will they be disappointed if this doesn't happen? How many prophecies are made which do not come to pass, and which are subsequently forgotten?

More to the point really, and I guess I should have made this clear, I'd like to see the scientific predictions of creation "science." What evidence does it tell us we should find in the natural world for Biblical literalism, if we want to go looking for it? For example, where is the evidence of a global flood? If we look at fossil stratigraphy, should we find evidence of that flood, and also evidence that all life was created at the same time? If we study languages, should we not find that before a certain time (the tower of Babel story), there was one world language? I'm just speculating of course. Maybe one of the creationists here can elaborate on this.

Still not the full picture, CTD

The purpose of my posts is also not to trade insults. Nor is it just to attack creationist arguments.

Hovind's argument about the Grand Canyon is not a bad argument because it is a creationist argument, it is a bad argument because it doesn't address all the evidence of the actual topology, and it is a bad argument because it is not based on what flows from bursting dams actually look like.

We can look at arguments on their merits rather than their source. For instance this argument does not depend on who the woman is or what her personal beliefs are (warning extreme ignorance is involved):

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=6b6_1217878876&p=1
(sorry can't get a video link to work on this)

This is an extremely poor argument because it is not based on facts and evidence of objective reality about light behavior and prismatic effects of water droplets.

A bad argument is a bad argument no matter the source of the argument, and pointing out that it is a bad argument is not insulting or hateful, it is the truth.

Enjoy.

** ROFL ** Where do you find this stuff, RAZD? I haven't laughed so hard in a long time.

RAZD or anyone? As a very lay person not studied on the subject and wholly objective I honestly don't see how the evidence here is conclusive either way. How do we know how the flood cleared? It makes sense to me anyway that the canyons were there and not necessarily formed by the flood anyway. What about the big crater, too, there in AZ? Obviously some heavy stuff happened in that area other than the flood, too. BUT - what about the great salt lake? How do you explain that?

Any which way they can, as long as it involves millions of years. One can just look at how many cockeyed stories they're currently trying to fit together to make the Grand Canyon old and smile, if not laugh out loud.

Yet every time I ask you to explain how uranium dates for the erosion of the canyon are wrong, the question is answered by dead air. This is a curious comment from you, considering the evidence RAZD has given in the Grand Canyon thread as to why geologists say the Grand Canyon is old, was gradually uplifted over a long period of time, and has been carved by a river and not a flood. Please explain how these are "cockeyed stories." We'd really like you to, we keep asking you to.

Linda, the bible does not state the world ending in 2000 and never did. People are ALWAYS going to make "other" predictions and the bible speaks of "false prophets" or people who do genuinely get it wrong.

The bible is the one to test all others by and so far, biblical prophecy has not failed. 100% accuracy. Outside of the bible? People coming along and saying they've had a vision or they've had "word", well they should always be tested by God's word, dissernment etc and the prophecies tested also. Some do come to fruition, some do not.

The bible prophets have not failed yet. I wouldn't get "too" cocky about putting the bible down any chance you get based on prophets outside of the bible, because for Christians, the biblical word always comes first.

LL: I don't actually see any predictions here though Jeanie. Russ has talked about Biblical prophecies from time to time but unless you accept the Bible as the infallible and literal word of God, there are some problems with accepting religious prophecies at face value. What's more, those prophecies themselves are usually pretty ambiguous and can be interpreted in different ways. Why did some people think the world was going to end in the year 2000? Why do others think it's going to end in a rapture sometime soon? Will they be disappointed if this doesn't happen? How many prophecies are made which do not come to pass, and which are subsequently forgotten?


Jeanie: Actually if you really want to go there I can name prophecy after prophecy which has come to pass and can do it only using the Bible except that we also believe in modern day revelation/prophesy! (So where I come from there are even more). The more modern ones are easier to interpret. For instance, Joseph Smith prophesied the Civil War among others as well as the two main parties we have now - by name. He also said a new one would form due to contentions between the two (I'd have to find it to get the word for word) which is happening. Can anyone say Libertarian?

As far as Y2K, that was based on coming to the end of the 6000 year period, but the calendar years are off. Even in the Book of Mormon Christ's birth was predicted and the believers were scoffed at. Literally to the day they were going to destroy the believers but the sigh of his coming (over here) came to pass. Night did not come.. A whole night and day passed without night. There was no doubt a natural explanation for this just like the star... but it was predicted as a sign nonetheless. On that note - when he was crucified the earth was in great turmoil - some earth forms were flattened, mountains arose....

I know that isn't what you are getting at - but just because its about God shouldn't discount anything. Science is man-made. You're looking at things only intellectually, but your spiritual self is trying to talk to you. its still in there somewhere : )

Since this thread is/was about something very nebulous, I'll go with this.

Let's look at a specific prophecy then. It doesn't have to be an exclusively Mormon one, or even a Biblical one. There are other famous "seers" such as Nostradamus. I've heard a lot about Nostradamus, but it's very easy after the fact to look at someone's words and shoehorn them into what actually happened, saying that those words predicted that specific event.

Would someone like to quote some words from a prophecy and explain what you think they are referring to?

I found a website where a guy did the work already on what i previous referred to.

http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_prophecies.shtml#war

I'll look some more up.

THIRD NEPHI
THE BOOK OF NEPHI
THE SON OF NEPHI, WHO WAS THE SON OF HELAMAN
And Helaman was the son of Helaman, who was the son of Alma, who was the son of Alma, being a descendant of Nephi who was the son of Lehi, who came out of Jerusalem in the first year of the reign of Zedekiah, the king of Judah.
CHAPTER 1
Nephi, son of Helaman, departs out of the land, and his son Nephi keeps the records—Though signs and wonders abound, the wicked plan to slay the righteous—The night of Christ’s birth arrives—The sign is given and a new star arises—Lyings and deceivings increase, and the Gadianton robbers slaughter many. Between A.D. 1 and 4
1 Now it came to pass that the *ninety and first year had passed away and it was asix hundred years from the time that Lehi left Jerusalem; and it was in the year that bLachoneus was the chief judge and the governor over the land.
2 And aNephi, the son of Helaman, had departed out of the land of Zarahemla, giving charge unto his son bNephi, who was his eldest son, concerning the cplates of brass, and dall the records which had been kept, and all those things which had been kept sacred from the departure of Lehi out of Jerusalem.
3 Then he adeparted out of the land, and bwhither he went, no man knoweth; and his son Nephi did keep the records in his stead, yea, the record of this people.
4 And it came to pass that in the commencement of the ninety and second year, behold, the prophecies of the prophets began to be fulfilled more fully; for there began to be agreater signs and greater miracles wrought among the people.
5 But there were some who began to say that the time was past for the words to be fulfilled, which were aspoken by Samuel, the Lamanite.
6 And they began to arejoice over their brethren, saying: Behold the time is past, and the words of Samuel are not fulfilled; therefore, your joy and your faith concerning this thing hath been vain.
7 And it came to pass that they did make a great uproar throughout the land; and the people who believed began to be very sorrowful, lest by any means those things which had been spoken might not come to pass.
8 But behold, they did watch steadfastly for athat day and that night and that day which should be as one day as if there were no night, that they might know that their faith had not been vain.
9 Now it came to pass that there was a day set apart by the aunbelievers, that all those who believed in those traditions should be bput to death except the csign should come to pass, which had been given by Samuel the prophet.
10 Now it came to pass that when Nephi, the son of Nephi, saw this wickedness of his people, his heart was exceedingly sorrowful.
11 And it came to pass that he went out and bowed himself down upon the earth, and cried mightily to his God in behalf of his people, yea, those who were about to be destroyed because of their faith in the tradition of their fathers.
12 And it came to pass that he cried mightily unto the Lord aall that day; and behold, the bvoice of the Lord came unto him, saying:
13 Lift up your head and be of good cheer; for behold, the time is at hand, and on this night shall the asign be given, and on the bmorrow come I into the world, to show unto the world that I will fulfil all that which I have caused to be cspoken by the mouth of my holy prophets.
14 Behold, I acome unto my own, to bfulfil all things which I have made known unto the children of men from the cfoundation of the world, and to do the dwill, eboth fof the Father and of the Son—of the Father because of me, and of the Son because of my flesh. And behold, the time is at hand, and this night shall the sign be given.
15 And it came to pass that the words which came unto Nephi were fulfilled, according as they had been spoken; for behold, at the going down of the asun there was bno darkness; and the people began to be astonished because there was no darkness when the night came.
16 And there were many, who had not believed the words of the prophets, who afell to the earth and became as if they were dead, for they knew that the great bplan of destruction which they had laid for those who believed in the words of the prophets had been frustrated; for the sign which had been given was already at hand.
17 And they began to know that the Son of God must shortly appear; yea, in fine, all the people upon the face of the whole earth from the awest to the east, both in the land north and in the land south, were so exceedingly astonished that they fell to the earth.
18 For they knew that the prophets had testified of these things for many years, and that the sign which had been given was already at hand; and they began to fear because of their iniquity and their unbelief.
19 And it came to pass that there was no darkness in all that night, but it was as light as though it was mid-day. And it came to pass that the sun did rise in the morning again, according to its proper order; and they knew that it was the day that the Lord should be aborn, because of the bsign which had been given.
20 And it had come to pass, yea, all things, every whit, according to the words of the prophets.
21 And it came to pass also that a new astar did appear, according to the word.
22 And it came to pass that from this time forth there began to be alyings sent forth among the people, by Satan, to harden their hearts, to the intent that they might not believe in those bsigns and wonders which they had seen; but notwithstanding these lyings and deceivings the cmore part of the people did believe, and were converted unto the Lord.
23 And it came to pass that Nephi went forth among the people, and also many others, baptizing unto repentance, in the which there was a great aremission of sins. And thus the people began again to have peace in the land.
24 And there were no contentions, save it were a few that began to preach, endeavoring to prove by the ascriptures that it was no more expedient to observe the law of Moses. Now in this thing they did err, having not understood the scriptures.
25 But it came to pass that they soon became converted, and were convinced of the error which they were in, for it was made known unto them that the law was not yet afulfilled, and that it must be fulfilled in every whit; yea, the word came unto them that it must be fulfilled; yea, that one jot or tittle should not pass away till it should all be fulfilled; therefore in this same year were they brought to a knowledge of their error and did bconfess their faults.
26 And thus the ninety and second year did pass away, bringing aglad tidings unto the people because of the signs which did come to pass, according to the words of the prophecy of all the holy prophets.
27 And it came to pass that the ninety and third year did also pass away in peace, save it were for the Gadianton robbers, who dwelt upon the amountains, who did infest the land; for so strong were their holds and their secret places that the people could not overpower them; therefore they did commit many murders, and did do much slaughter among the people.
28 And it came to pass that in the ninety and fourth year they began to increase in a great degree, because there were many dissenters of the Nephites who did flee unto them, which did cause much sorrow unto those Nephites who did remain in the land.
29 And there was also a cause of much sorrow among the Lamanites; for behold, they had many children who did grow up and began to wax strong in years, that they became for themselves, and were aled away by some who were bZoramites, by their lyings and their flattering words, to join those Gadianton robbers.
30 And thus were the Lamanites afflicted also, and began to decrease as to their faith and righteousness, because of the wickedness of the arising generation.

Here's a good link. Kind of lengthy.... About unlocking Old Testament prophecy and reasons for it.


http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.j...10VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&hideNav=1

http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.j...10VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&hideNav=1

A latter-day testament for Biblical truth (prophecies)

May not be exactly in the form you want, but I don't feel good and need to clear off for today. Have a good one. You getting your lesson plans done?

Taken from someone who has kindly typed so many of them out. Or I will be sitting here forever trying to get each one up and frankly Linda, to do this for somebody who is only WAITING to make lofty insults, is already predicted by me to be a complete waste of time.

http://www.parentalguide.com/Documents/Bible_Desk/proof_bible_true.htm



The Jewish people would be scattered worldwide; yet Israel would become a nation again-ref Isa 66:8; Mic 5:3. Prophecy fulfilled. This happened exactly as predicted on May 14, 1948. That’s 1 out of 1.

Note: Israel was destroyed in approximately 721 B.C. and Judah about 135 years later. For the last 2500 years, approximately fourteen different peoples have possessed the land of Israel. Nevertheless, the Bible showed that the day would come when the nation of Israel would be reborn.


The rebirth of Israel was a key sign, indicating we had entered a time period called the latter days. It was the beginning of a countdown leading to the Tribulation and culminating with the Battle of Armageddon and the return of Jesus immediately after. Along with the fulfillment of this crucial event are over 360 prophecies that would all come together, so we might recognize that the Tribulation is very close at hand. Twenty nine of them are listed here.

Yet the Bible foretells that most people would not believe these things, despite the overwhelming evidence of the fulfillment of the signs from God’s Word and the incredible rebirth of Israel happening exactly as predicted. As people refused to believe the flood was coming in Noah’s time, so people today willingly choose to disregard the signs of the times.

2. Israel shall be brought forth in one day, at once-ref Isa 66:8. Prophecy fulfilled-May 14, 1948. That’s 2 out of 2.
Note: On Nov. 29, 1947, the General Assembly of the U.N. approved a resolution calling for the establishment of a Jewish state in Palestine. On the morning of May 14, 1948 (the last day of the British mandate), a meeting of the People’s Council took place in Israel to decide on the name of the state and to finalize the declaration. At exactly 4pm, the proclamation ceremony began at the Tel Aviv museum. The 979 Hebrew words of the Scroll of Independence were read. All stood, and the scroll was adopted. The notorious White Paper, issued by the British in 1930 restricting Jewish immigration, was declared null and void. Members of the People’s Council signed the proclamation. David Ben-Gurion rapped his gavel, declaring, “The State of Israel is established. This meeting is ended.” Israel was brought forth as a nation in one day, at once. It happened exactly as predicted. At midnight, the British soldiers and high commissioner would leave. President Truman was swift in announcing U.S. recognition of Israel. The following morning, on May 15, Israel was under armed attack by the Egyptians, Syrians, Lebanese, Jordanians, and Iraqis.

3. The rebirth of Israel would happen after many days. It would occur a long time in the future after the prophecy was made and at the time the bible calls the latter days-Ezek 38:8. Prophecy fulfilled-May 14, 1948. That’s 3 out of 3.
Note: It is estimated that this prophecy was made around 580 B.C. Approximately 2500 years later, in 1948, this prophecy was fulfilled.

4.Israel would be brought forth (or reborn) “out of the nations.”-Ezek 38:8. Prophecy fulfilled-May 14, 1948. That’s 4 out of 4.

Note: As previously stated, on Nov. 29, 1947, the General Assembly of the “United Nations” approved a resolution calling for the establishment of a Jewish state in Palestine. This prophecy was perfectly fulfilled. Consider, for centuries the land of Israel had been occupied by many nations. Israel was “brought forth out of the nations”—the children of Israel from many nations were returning to their ancient homeland.

5. Israel must regain the city of Jerusalem-Joel 2:32; Isa 28:14; Ezek 22:19. This happened just as predicted in 1967. That’s 5 out of 5.

Note: The Bible gives us two methods so we would know we are in the last generation. One is by Israel’s rebirth. The other, by a precise line of events that would all come together at one time. Israel was reborn on May 14th, 1948. The Bible indicates that from Israel’s rebirth a generation would not pass till all be fulfilled. A Jewish generation is figured from the age of 20 to 60 (1968). We are not setting any date, but it seems clear that we are living in that generation now.

6. The Christian church at the time of the end would be lukewarm, neither cold nor hot for Jesus. Prophecy fulfilled. That’s 6 out of 6.

Note: God will spew them out. Many church leaders and people that call themselves a Christian and are sure they are saved will not be going to heaven. The Bible tells us—you have acquired wealth, but your true condition is wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked and you don’t know it-Rev 3:14-22. This is today’s church. Most churches preach very little Scripture, but lots of worldly stories. Many sing a great deal, but put very little emphasis on repentance, obeying, serving, and fearing God, the fruits of the Spirit, Bible prophecy, water baptism by immersion, and studying your Bible faithfully every day. Many are only entertainment centers that teach what their members want to hear.

People will not endure sound doctrine-2 Tim 4:3. They turn away from the truth-2 Tim 4:4. Many church members are so lukewarm or dead, they don’t even bring their Bibles with them to the house of God. Many ministers think this is the best church age ever, yet the Bible clearly shows it is the worst and most deceived.

7. The Bible gives us over 50 descriptions about the people at the time of the end. Here are some:

A. Some would depart from the faith and go into devil worship-1 Tim 4:1. This is perfect. Reportedly in Great Britain alone, there are about 35,000 professing witches.
B. People would have no conscience-1 Tim 4:1,2.
C. People would mock about the last days and not believe-2 Pe 3:3; Jude 18.
D. People would become lovers of themselves-2 Tim 3:1,2. Remember the TV commercials—“I do it for me”?
E. People would be disobeying their parents-2 Tim 3:1,2.
F. People would be grateful for nothing-2 Tim 3:1,2.
G. Homosexuality would increase-Lk 17:28,30; ref Gen 19:5; Ro 1:24,26,27.
H. People would be without self-control in sex-2 Tim 3:1,2,6; Rev 9:21, Lk 17:28,30; Jude 7. Is this not the great sex generation?
I. People would be untrustworthy, friends would betray friends-2 Tim 3:1-3.
J. People would love pleasures more than God-2 Tim 3:1,2,4. This is true. Shall we go on a picnic, watch football, or sleep. Church?—we can go another time. Our American motto “In God we trust” has become a joke. Remember, these were all predicted centuries ago as part of the signs that we are at the time of the end.
K. People would be taking drugs-Rev 9:21. The Greek word for sorceries, in Rev 9:21, means pharmaceuticals or drugs. God’s Word is 100% right on every one. That’s 7 out of 7. How could you have any doubts at this point?

Note: Fifty years ago, many people never locked their doors at night. People could leave their keys in their car. Merchants could leave their merchandise on the sidewalk without guards, and there was no profanity on television, radio, or in the movies. One of the biggest problems in public school was gum chewing. Those days are long gone.


8. There would be weapons that could destroy the world-Mk 13:20; Rev 6:8; Rev 9:18; Zech 14:8,12. This prophecy is true. That’s 8 out of 8.

Note: When in our history would anyone have ever thought this possible? It is estimated that the combined nuclear arsenals of the USA and Russia (as of the year 2000) could kill every living thing on earth 6 times over.

9. There would be an increase in earthquakes-Mt 24:2,3,7; Mk 13:8; Lk 21:11. This prophecy is correct. That’s 9 out of 9.

Note: One might think as the earth settled over a period of time that earthquakes would decrease like ripples in the water. Yet the Bible indicates the opposite is true. In this last generation, research from the U.S. Geological Survey, National Earthquake Information Center reveals that major earthquakes of a magnitude of 6.0 or higher have remained relatively constant during this century. However, the total number of earthquakes in recent years appear to be rising. For example, it was reported that in 1986, the total number of earthquakes was 12,718. In l990, it was 16,612. In 1994, it was 19,371. This will culminate during the Battle of Armageddon, AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS. At that time, there will be an earthquake that will shake the world. The cities of the nations will fall. Every island will flee away.

10. At the time of the end, there would be famines in various places. Food shortages would still exist in some places-Mt 24:3,4,7; ref Mk 13:8; Lk 21:11. This prophecy is accurate. That’s 10 out of 10.

Note: In this last generation, many are starving in the world. Poverty and crop failure, due to severe weather, drought, or insect infestation, are often a factor. Many people are born, live, and die on the streets, in alleyways, or railroad stations in some countries of the world. Multitudes live in mud houses with grass or palm branches for a roof or have no place to live at all. Billions have no electricity. In some nations, good drinking water is almost nonexistent. Senseless wars have left millions of people with no place to go. Refugee camps exist in many places where people live under conditions that are almost indescribable. They are hungry.

One such person was asked, as I recall, “What would it take for you to consider yourself rich?” His reply was, “I would consider myself rich, if I could have a roof over my head that did not leak, and if I could know what it is like to go to bed at night with a full stomach.”

It has been estimated that 60,000,000 people a year die from starvation around the world. This prophecy is accurate.

11. The Gospel must be published in all the world-Mk 13:10. This prophecy is exact. That’s 11 out of 11.

Note: In this last generation, to our knowledge, the Gospel is being published (or is about to be published) in the primary language of every nation of the world or “among all nations.” Yet when this prophecy was made, the possibility of such a thing would have seemed impossible. There was no printing press or any means to do such a thing. In addition to this, the Gospel should be available by short-wave radio to listeners anywhere in the world. We have just reached the point that seemed impossible—11 perfect predictions—yet with God nothing is impossible.

12. In the latter days when Israel was once again a nation, there would be a great military power to the extreme north of Israel in the land of Magog (which is modern-day Russia)-Ezek 38:2-4,8,15,16. Incredible. That’s 14 out of 14.

Note: How could the Bible have foretold such a thing? It told the location of this nation, facts about its military, and even the time period it would come to pass. As was already said in Lk 24:25-O FOOLS, AND SLOW OF HEART TO BELIEVE ALL THAT THE PROPHETS HAVE SPOKEN. Certainly, at this point, even the biggest skeptic in the world can see that the Bible is true, there is a God, and we are very near the time of the end.

Here are just a few more prophecies briefly given, out of the 365 that exist, regarding this latter day generation.

13. In the last days, people would be hoarding gold and silver. True. It began in the late 1970’s.

14. There would be a nation to the far east of Israel, to the end of the earth. This nation would have an army of 200 million. This is absolutely astounding. It is estimated by some that the population of the entire world at the time of Christ was only about 200,000,000. How then could the Bible have ever told the location of a nation and given such a figure as the size of its army nearly 2000 years ago? China has boasted that they could field an army of this exact figure.

15. The currency in Israel at the time of the end would be the shekel. The currency had been the Israeli pound until June 1980, when it was changed to the shekel. The Bible is flawless.

16. There would be an economic alliance of the nations of the Old Roman Empire. It would have a military capability. This is a perfect description of the European Economic Community (the EEC), which is in the process right now of adopting the one-currency system for many of their member nations. It is written, IN THE DAYS OF THESE KINGS (these nations, which is now) SHALL THE GOD OF HEAVEN SET UP A KINGDOM-Dan 2:44.

About 29 prophecies in 16 sets have been given, all perfect and all written centuries ago. The chance of any person writing 29 perfect prophecies 2000 years into the future is not possible. The Bible is the Word of God, and we have just proved it. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Repent and get baptized by full immersion. Read and obey the Gospel. God loves you. He is not willing that any should perish. The Rapture is close. Most people are not ready and will not be taken. However, “YOU” cannot say you did not know. Know and understand, Mt 16:26-WHAT IS A MAN PROFITED, IF HE SHALL GAIN THE WHOLE WORLD, AND LOSE HIS OWN SOUL? OR WHAT SHALL A MAN GIVE IN EXCHANGE FOR HIS SOUL?

Good job Bex! I was going to look for some on the Jewish issues but am succumbing to my bladder infection : ) Thank you. I'm going for the day. It has been a sabbath well spent!!

And here is more for anybody interested. Taken from http://www.bible.ca/b-prophecy-60.htm





Concerning his birth Prophesied Fulfilled
1. Born of the seed of woman Gen 3:15 Gal 4:4
2. Born of a virgin Isa 7:14 Mt 1:18-25
3. Seed of Abraham Gen 22:18 Mt 1:1
4. Seed of Isaac Gen 21:12 Lk 3:23+34
5. Seed of Jacob Num 24:17 Lk 3:34
6. Seed of David Jer 23:5 Lk 3:31
7. Tribe of Judah Gen 49:10 Rev 5:5
8. Family line of Jesse Isa 11:1 Lk 3:32
9. Born in Bethlehem Mic 5:2 Mt 2:1-6
10. Herod kills the children Jer 31:15 Mt 2:16-18

Concerning his nature Prophesied Fulfilled
11. He pre-existed creation Mic 5:2 1 Pet 1:20
12. He shall be called Lord Ps 110:1 Acts 2:36
13. Called Immanuel (God with us) Isa 7:14 Mt 1:22-23
14. Prophet Deut 18:18-19 Acts 3:18-25
15. Priest Ps 110:4 Heb 5:5-6
16. Judge Isa 33:22 Jn 5:22-23
17. King Ps 2:6 Jn 18:33-37
18. Anointed by the Spirit Isa 11:2 Mt 3:16-17
19. His zeal for God Ps 69:9 Jn 2:15-17
Concerning his ministry Prophesied Fulfilled
20. Preceded by a messenger Isa 40:3 Mt 3:1-3
21. To begin in Galilee Isa 9:1-2 Mt 4:12-17
22. Ministry of Miracles Isa 35:5-6 Mt 9:35;11:4
23. Teacher of parables Ps 78:1-4 Mt 13:34-35
24. He was to enter the temple Mal 3:1 Mt 21:10-12
25. Enter Jerusalem on donkey Zech 9:9 Mt 21:1-7
26. Stone of stumbling to Jews Isa 28:16; Ps 118:22 1 Pet 2:6-8 27. Light to Gentiles Isa 49:6 Acts 13:46-48

The day Jesus was crucified Prophesied Fulfilled
28. Betrayed by a friend Ps 41:9 Jn 13:18-27
29. Sold for 30 pieces of silver Zech 11:12 Mt 26:14-15
30. 30 pieces thrown in Temple Zech 11:13 Mt 27:3-5
31. 30 pieces buys potters field Zech 11:13 Mt 27:6-10
32. Forsaken by His disciples Zech 13:7 Mk 14:27+50
33. Accused by false witnesses Ps 35:11+20-21 Mt 26:59-61 34. Silent before accusers Isa 53:7 Mt 27:12-14
35. Wounded and bruised Isa 53:4-6 1 Pet 2:21-25
36. Beaten and spit upon Isa 50:6 Mt 26:67-68
37. Mocked Ps 22:6-8 Mt 27:27-31
38. Fell under the cross Ps 109:24-25 Jn 19:17; Lk23:26 39. Hands and feet pierced Ps 22:16 Jn 20:24-28
40. Crucified with thieves Isa 53:12 Mt 27:38
41. Prayed for enemies Isa 53:12 Lk 23:34
42. Rejected by His own people Isa 53:3 Jn 19:14-15
43. Hated without cause Ps 69:4 Jn 15:25
44. Friends stood aloof Ps 38:11 Lk22:54;23:49
45. People wag their heads Ps 22:7;109:25 Mt 27:39
46. People stared at Him Ps 22:17 Lk 23:35
47. Cloths divided and gambled for Ps 22:18 Jn 19:23-24
48. Became very thirsty Ps 22:15 Jn 19:28
49. Gall and vinegar offered Him Ps 69:21 Mt 27:34
50. His forsaken cry Ps 22:1 Mt 27:46
51. Committed Himself to God Ps 31:5 Lk 23:46
52. Bones not broken Ps 34:20 Jn 19:32-36
53. Heart broken Ps 69:20;22:14 Jn 19:34
54. His side pierced Zech 12:10 Jn 19:34+37
55. Darkness over the land Amos 8:9 Lk 23:44-45
56. Buried in rich man's tomb Isa 53:9 Mt 27:57-60

His Resurrection & Ascension Prophesied Fulfilled
57. Raised from the dead Ps 16:8-11 Acts 2:24-31
58. Begotten as Son of God Ps 2:7 Acts 13:32-35
59. Ascended to God Ps 68:18 Eph 2:8-10
60. Seated beside God Ps 110:1 Heb 1:3+13

Thanks Jeanie, the quick and easy one first:

This is a meteor impact site, it has the characteristics of meteor impacts. There is nothing controversial about this that I am aware of.

The standard geological explanation is simple: runoff (from snow and rain) is carried into a low point with no outlet, with evaporation concentrating what salts are in the runoff water (like boiling down a broth to thicken it), and where the inflow is low enough that it doesn't fill it up to some overflow low point (the bottom of Death Valley is below sea level).

It would be interesting to figure out how much water would be needed to fill this basin until the lowest current outflow point was reached, and then calculate how long it would take for that water to evaporate down to the level of the Great Salt Lake.

It would also be interesting to figure out if that would concentrate salts carried in runoff today to the levels seen in the Great Salt Lake.

Certainly an inquiring mind would want to ask how come the "Monster lakes left over" would not also include Death Vally and why "Catastrophic flood when natural dam breaks" and ""Catastrophic erosion takes place" would not also result in catastrophic flow out of Death Valley at whatever low point around the valley exists, and leaving behind a large lake.

Would that lake that size evaporate in 4000 years? If it doesn't evaporate then where did the water go and how did the Great Salt Lake reach the salt concentrations that it currently has?

Is there any evidence that water existed in Death Valley to that depth (ie - lake edge erosion patterns)?

This is actually a very critical question, and not one to be laughed off. The question is how do you validate what someone is saying to see if it really is true.

We'll take two examples to see how this works:

Example #1 - "Lucy's Knee":

A story repeated on many creationist sites is that the knee of the Lucy skeleton was found far from the site of the skeleton.

This claim originated with John D. Morris in "WAS LUCY AN APE-MAN?" published in November 1989:

http://web.archive.org/web/20041011063219/http://www.icr.org/pubs/btg-b/btg-011b.htm
This claim has since been retracted by Morris, but there are others that have repeated this claim that haven't (see Lucy's Knee Joint, A Case Study in Creationists' Willingness to Admit their Errors)

If there were two people debating this on a website, one using creationist websites to show it was from far away and the other using evolutionist websites to show that this claim is wrong, how would you know which was true?

You could look at a picture of the knee joint:


and you can look at the fossil skeleton:



And we see that (a) the knee joint is not the same, Lucy only has half per side and (b) the lengths of bone connected to the knee area are different lengths.

ie you can verify that the claim is false by looking at the evidence.

Example #2 - "Haeckel's Embryos":

The common claim is (a) that Haeckel's embryo drawing are frauds and (b) that they are still being used to teach evolution, even though evolutionists know they are frauds. This is a little more complex.

Haeckel hand drew the embryos (no photography back then) of several different animals in order to demonstrate his theory that ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny (ie - that the embryo development of an organism follows the path of the organism's evolutionary history). In the process he "fudged" the drawings a little bit to make his claim more visible.

Again, we can compare the drawings with actual embryos and see that there are little differences, but that by and large the drawings are recognizable as the organisms in question (at least by embryologists).

So it is true that the drawings were fudged. That they still look like the embryos in question though means that they are not frauds, complete fakes.

We can also look in textbooks and see if the drawings are used to teach evolution. They are.

But: they are not used to teach the theory that ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny - which is usually pointed out to be a falsified (and discarded) theory, an example of the self-correcting process of science.

They are used to show that embryos from similar organisms undergo similar embryo development until a point is reached where they diverge to develop their particular traits. The more related two different types of organisms are the closer they follow similar embryo development paths.

Many modern texts now use pictures of actual embryos to show this same evolutionary process.

So why do some texts still use Haeckel's drawings? I can't say for sure, but I would say it is a combination of things: the evolution being taught is not really affected by the minor alterations Haeckle made in his drawings, the pictures are in public domain (no royalties) and are black and white (no color printing) and publishers are cheap, plus the publishers don't have to change what was used before.

So you can look at the evidence and see that (a) Haeckel did fake parts of his drawings and (b) they are used to teach an aspect of evolution that is observed in actual embryos today.


So how do you test for the validity of claims? Do you take a persons word for it? When two people disagree, do you chose the one you are more comfortable with, the one that fits your personal view of how things are? Do you stop with the comfortable answer? Or do you dig below the layers of comfort to find evidence that can show a different, possibly disturbing (to you), answer may be correct?

Inquiring minds want to know (and yes this is the same answer for our previous discussion).

When you start with an answer you haven't explored the question.

Enjoy.

RAZD: Thanks Jeanie, the quick and easy one first:

Quote:What about the big crater, too, there in AZ?This is a meteor impact site, it has the characteristics of meteor impacts. There is nothing controversial about this that I am aware of.

Jeanie: I know that RAZD.. LOL Just wonder if that impact couldn've caused the earth to form the canyon to a degree at that point.

Well RAZD, you are a patient teacher of this stuff. I have to say...

Might be a good question for the History thread. Verification is very important when investigating history.

And we have a Recap thread as well. Much more information and discussion can be found there. Another good source would be the " Lies in the Textbooks" video.

One who evaluates motives based upon actions rather than words can easily figure out the deal on these.

Not really. Recap doctrine is presently a part of the religion which is enthusiastically encouraged, but no longer required. Pretty simple.

And what would this aspect of evolution be?

Sorry you missed it CTD

Well I could tell you to scroll up and read it, but I can repeat it too:

It's pretty standard stuff, and it relates to common ancestry, another verification of the relationships between different organisms.

Yes it is simple to make unfounded statements. A founded statement would provide evidence that recapitulation theory is being taught as fact.

One example would do. Innuendo and assertion don't.

Enjoy.

I asked for the wording of one prophecy. At any rate, Let's look at this as a claimed method of determining truth. We can see that not all Biblical scholars agree with you about the prophecies in the Bible (not a subject I'm personally interested in discussing here in depth).



So at most, there is disagreement about the interpretation of what is being said, whether it was written after the fact, what it refers to, and whether or not it's got something to do with future events. It would be up to you to show that your, or your denomination's, interpretation is the correct one.

Secondly, there are prophecies existing in other religions, and there are non-religious ones as well.



I believe that non-Christian prophecies would be classified under the term "witchcraft"?

What is your system for deciding that the above prophecies are untrue or irrelevant? What about Hindu prophecies?

Hello Bex,
It's so nice to see your posts regarding the Bible and Creation/Evolution.
I haven't read all these posts, as they really can wear one out....but I know you, Bex, to be a student of the Bible.
In JOB 37:12 (Elihu is speaking to JOB) "And it (earth) turned round about by His counsels."
Another amazing and awesome scripture verse referring to God's Omnipotence is found in ISAIAH 40:22 "It is He that sitteth upon the CIRCLE of the earth...stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain."
So both of these verses are clear that the earth is round.
Another interesting and thought-provoking Bible search is that of the constellations (stars).
JOB 9:9-- JOB is acknowledging God's amazing Creation: "(God) which maketh Arcturus, Orion, and Pleiades and the chambers of the south ...Which doeth great things past finding out; yea, and wonders without number."
We press on, Bex. You are doing a wonderful job for His kingdom. Blessings, Abishag <><

May not seem to directly answer your post, but if you bear with and read through you'll see the relationship, but explains it from where we sit - along with the apostasy.

C H A P T E R O N E
PRELUDE TO THE RESTORATION
TH E R E S TO R AT I O N of the gospel of Jesus Christ and the
establishment of Zion are the two great events in the history of mankind that precede the second coming of Jesus Christ. “The
building up of Zion is a cause that has interested the people of God in every age,” wrote the Prophet Joseph Smith. “It is a theme upon which prophets, priests and kings have dwelt with peculiar delight; they have looked forward with joyful anticipation to the day in which we live.”1 This latterday
restoration is the last act in God’s divine drama for his children before the Millennium. This is the “dispensation of the fulness of times” (Ephesians 1:10) in which the “restitution of all things” would take place
as the Lord promised through “all his holy prophets since the
world began” (Acts 3:21). The gospel is actually older than the earth itself. Its principles are eternal and were made known to God’s children in the councils in heaven. The
Father’s plan centered on Jesus Christ, who was chosen to be the “Lamb slain from the foundation of the world” (Revelation 13:8). In those councils our Heavenly Father explained that the earth would provide a place of testing for his children, declaring, “And we will prove them herewith, to see
if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them” (Abraham 3:25). Therefore, the Father granted his children the eternal principle of agency so that they might choose good over evil. Lucifer rebelled against the Father and his plan and was cast out of heaven. He became known as Satan, or the devil, the father of all lies, who on earth would deceive men and “lead them captive at his will, even as many aswould not hearken unto [God’s] voice” (Moses 4:4).On the other hand, God has raised up prophets to teach his children the saving principles and ordinances of the gospel of Jesus Christ. From the beginning there has been a struggle between the kingdoms of God and Satan. The Church of Jesus Christ, the Lord’s earthly organization, was
established at times on the earth to gather the chosen and obedient children of God into a covenant society and to train them to fight evil. The true Church has the necessary principles and ordinances of the gospel of Jesus Christ that lead to eternal life. A period when the Lord reveals his gospel doctrines, ordinances, and priesthood, is called a dispensation. For example, there were the dispensations
of Adam, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Moses, and of the Nephites. These dispensations gave the faithful and obedient the opportunity on earth to overcome the wicked world and prepare for eternal life by conforming to the principles and ordinances of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Time after time the flowering of the true Church was followed by an apostasy, or a falling away from the truth. Thus in world history these
flowerings and apostasies were cyclical. Each time the Lord’s people fell into apostasy, there came a need for a restoration of the gospel. The Restoration discussed in this text is simply the last in the series of restorations that have occurred through the ages.

T H E N E W T E S TA M E N T C H U R C H
When the Lord Jesus Christ was born into mortality and ministered among Israel, he restored the gospel and the higher priesthood. He organized a church with a “foundation of the apostles and prophets” (Ephesians 2:20) to carry on the work after him. The Savior spent much of his ministry privately tutoring his Apostles, giving them the authority and
keys to continue the work after his death. He chose Peter, James, and John to be the presiding Apostles. At his ascension he commissioned the Apostles to carry the message of salvation unto all the world. The Church was small in numbers when the Apostles assumed its leadership. Just over a week after the Savior’s ascension, the Holy Spirit was manifest in rich abundance on the Day of Pentecost as the Apostles
taught the gospel and bore witness of the reality of the resurrected Lord. On this occasion three thousand people were baptized into the Church. The Apostles continued to minister with power and authority resulting in the conversion of additional thousands. So far, the gospel had been confined to
the house of Israel. One day, however, as Peter was praying on the roof of a house in Joppa, he had a vision in which he learned that God is no respecter of persons, that no group should be regarded as unclean, and that the gospel should go to the Gentiles as well as to the Jews (see Acts 10:9–48).
At the time of his ascension into heaven, the Savior commissioned his disciples to “be witnesses unto
me . . . unto the uttermost part of
the earth” (Acts 1:8).

P R E L U D E T O T H E R E S TO R AT I O N
3
The conversion of Saul of Tarsus sometime later was of great
significance to the growth of the Church. Saul, who had been persecuting the early believers, beheld the Savior in a bright light while on the road to Damascus. “I am Jesus whom thou persecutest” (Acts 9:5), proclaimed the risen Lord to the stricken Pharisee. And Saul, the agent of the Sanhedrin,
became Paul the defender of the faith, a “chosen vessel” (Acts 9:15) to proclaim the name of Christ before Gentiles and kings. Over the next thirty years this intrepid Apostle, along with many other devoted disciples who accompanied him, spread the gospel message and established branches of the Church throughout much of the Roman Empire. As growth continued
and branches multiplied, elders, bishops, deacons, priests, teachers, and evangelists (patriarchs) were called and given proper authority by the Apostles.

T H E G R E A T A P O S T A S Y
While the Apostles and other missionaries were courageously working to establish the Lord’s kingdom on earth, the seeds of apostasy were already sprouting within the Church. Peter wrote that there were false teachers already among the people and that still others would come “who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction” (2 Peter 2:1). Peter also
predicted that “many shall follow their pernicious ways” (v. 2).
By the end of the first century A.D. the Apostles had taken the
gospel north into Syria and Asia Minor; west to Macedonia, Greece, Italy, and the isles of the Mediterranean; then to northeastern Africa, and Egypt. A century later Christian communities existed in Gaul (France), Germany, and the
Iberian Peninsula (Spain) as well as in northwestern Africa. Paul similarly testified that out of the congregation of believers would “men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them” (Acts 20:30).
But internal apostasy and disbelief were not the only challenges the early missionaries faced. While it was generally Roman policy to extend cultural and religious freedom to their subjects, there were intermittent periods when the Christians were severely persecuted, making it difficult for them to worship openly and proclaim the “good news” of the gospel.
Naturally, at such times the Church leaders were especially targeted for imprisonment and death. The first notable Roman persecution occurred during the reign of Nero, who made the Christians the scapegoat for the burning of Rome in A.D. 64. Tradition says the Apostle Peter was crucified upside down and that later, in A.D. 67–68, the Apostle Paul was beheaded by
the order of the emperor. At first the Twelve perpetuated the apostolic office. For example, Matthias, who was not of the original Twelve, was called to be an Apostle. But through the spirit of prophecy, the leaders of the Church eventually
recognized that an apostasy was not only inevitable but imminent. As the Apostles were killed, revelation to guide the Lord’s church ceased, along with authority to operate it.
The years after the Apostles died provided ample evidence of the
predicted demise of Christ’s church. Principles of the gospel were corrupted by being mixed with prevailing pagan philosophies. Loss of the Holy Spirit was evidenced by a gradual disappearance of spiritual gifts. Changes were made in church organization and government, and essential ordinances of
the gospel were modified. According to President Joseph Fielding Smith, the results of the Apostasy were devastating: “Satan in his wrath drove the [Church] into the wilderness, or from the earth; the power of the Priesthood was taken from among men, and after the Church with its authority and gifts disappeared
from the earth, then in his anger the serpent continued his war upon all who had faith and sought the testimony of Jesus, desiring to worship God according to the dictates of conscience. So successful did he become that his dominion extended over all the known world.”2

T H E L O N G , D A R K N I G H T
The change from truth to error in the Church did not take place in a day. The Apostasy, hastened by the death of the Apostles in the latter half of the first century, gradually deepened during the years that followed. By the fourth century there was hardly a trace of the Church of Jesus Christ that was recognizable, and the “long, dark night” was well underway. With the Apostles gone, local church officers gradually assumed more authority.
Bishops determined policy and doctrine for their local areas, claiming to be the proper successors to the Apostles. Gradually, a few bishops in key cities, such as Rome, Alexandria, Jerusalem, and Antioch gained supreme authority in their entire regions. A great diversity of practices and dogma came as church leaders relied upon logic and rhetoric rather than upon revelation. “The compromising of truth and error, the assimilation of the gospel of Christ with the philosophies of men produced a new religion. This new religion was an appealing composite of New Testament Christianity, Jewish traditions, Greek philosophy, Graeco-Roman paganism, and the mystery religions.”3 As the Christian church developed and spread, the Roman government changed its policy from mostly toleration to persecution. This was in part due to Christianity emerging as a group separate and distinct from Judaism, which had been allowed special privileges under Roman law. The Christians were considered antisocial in that they refused to hold political
office, serve in the military, use the civil courts, or participate in public festivals. They were called atheists because there was no room in Christian monotheism for the Roman gods or for a deified emperor. For these reasons, and perhaps for others, the Romans sporadically launched attacks upon the
church until the reign of Diocletian (A.D. 284–305). Diocletian determined to destroy everything that was not pagan as un-Roman. Churches were destroyed, scriptures burned, and Christians made to sacrifice or face torture. In an edict of 306 the persecution was ordered empire-wide. It was perhaps inevitable that the empire would be forced to rescind its anti-Christian legislation. The church continued to grow, and the
weakening condition of the empire called for unity, not disharmony. Constantine, at the Milvian Bridge in A.D. 312, utilized the cross as his symbol as he crushed his opponent Maxentius. The next year at Milan, Constantine issued his famous Edict of Toleration which granted to all people the right to worship as they pleased, revoking the measures which
had meant to suppress Christianity. Constantine himself did not become a Christian until he lay dying, but his acceptance and endorsement of Christianity placed the church in
partnership with the aims of the empire. The desperate need to strengthen Roman unity is credited for Constantine’s interest in the theological dispute within the church. To resolve a dispute over the nature of the Godhead, Constantine was instrumental in calling the Council of Nicaea, the first of
the great ecumenical councils, in a city just south of his capital in A.D. 325. The creed that emerged from the council’s deliberation, and was approved by the emperor, is a classic example of the way apostasy results when revelation is supplanted by argumentation and decree. As similar conflicts
were resolved during the following centuries, a strong alliance developed between the state and the church, ensuring a growing secular influence upon the doctrines and practices of the church.
By the time of the barbarian invasion of Western Europe in the fifth century, many of the Germanic tribes already had been reached by various types of Christian missionaries. Therefore they took quickly to Roman
culture and Catholicism. The sack of Rome in A.D. 410, however, was a clear signal that the empire was not invulnerable. The masses of Goths, Vandals, and Huns who crossed the imperial boundaries turned the unity of the West into a shambles, leaving behind the beginning of several nationalist states.
Local political leaders exerted increased influence over the church in their areas at the expense of Rome. For the next several centuries, the churches in the various developing European countries became in effect the fiefs or
feudal estates of the lords of the manors. Culture, education, and general morals retrogressed. It was a beginning of the time often referred to in history as the Dark Ages.

R E N A I S S A N C E A N D R E F O R M AT I O N
By the fourteenth century, Europeans began to show renewed interest in classical Greece and Rome, resulting in a flowering of literature, science, and art. It was, in effect, a period of “rebirth,” or “renaissance,” when men with confidence in themselves started to explore new ways of exploiting their environment. Artists turned from dreary mysticism to employ their
skills using new techniques in sculpture, art, and literature. It was an age of naturalism—when the tools of science and art were applied to glorify the human body and to erect vast new cathedrals. Men seemed to unshackle themselves from old ways. Gunpowder revolutionized warfare; the mariners’ compass opened new vistas of travel and exploration; commerce was launched into the vast reaches of the Orient; and the Western Hemisphere was discovered. In the fifteenth century printing by movable type was greatly refined, and the whole field of printing gained new potential. This of course directly affected the rise of
the universities and the dissemination of information.
The Renaissance was also a time of spiritual change. In their search for the classical past, men were introduced to the writings of the early church fathers and to copies of the scriptures in Hebrew and Greek. The scholars of the Renaissance began making these works available to the common people. Discovering the simplicity of the early church as opposed to the
ritual and complexity of medieval Christianity led many to discover “anew” their original faith. These people founded or joined new religious orders, such as the Franciscans and Dominicans, as well as heretical movements, such as the Albigensians and Waldensians. In a sense, the
effects of the Renaissance provided a setting for the Protestant reformation, which tore asunder the unity of Christendom once and for all. The most famous of the Reformers was Martin Luther, who was born in Eisleben, Saxony, on 10 November 1483. When he was eighteen he was sent by his father, Hans Luther, to Erfurt to prepare for a career in law. In 1505, however, he abandoned his legal training to enter the monastery of the Augustinian Order of Eremites. In 1508 he was sent to Wittenberg to further
his studies in theology and lecture on Aristotle’s philosophy. From his earliest years, he seemed to have been tormented by the wide discrepancy between the doctrines and teachings of the scriptures and the practices of Catholicism. During a journey to Rome in 1510, he was shocked at the corruption of the clergy and the religious apathy of the people. This did much to dispel the veneration in which he had held the papacy and armed him to challenge its authority. Luther’s intensive study of the Bible led him to the doctrinal position that later came to mark the reform movement: that men are justified by faith alone (see Romans 3:28) and not by their good works. That which most provoked Luther’s direct opposition to the Church of
Rome was the sale of indulgences by the agents of Pope Leo X. These indulgences were offered to repay Albert of Mainz his cost in acquiring the archbishopric of Mainz and to continue work on St. Peter’s unfinished basilica. The purchase of indulgences granted individuals the remission of sin and punishment in purgatory and complete remission of all sins for the
dead. On 31 October 1517, Luther nailed to the church door at Wittenberg his Ninety-five Theses, which challenged the church to debate on the efficacy of indulgences and the church’s sacramental practices. Luther’s theses were originally written to promote discussion among scholars, but the masses soon saw in him a champion and public hero. He defended himself against prelate and scholar and finally was even heard by the imperial diet (assembly) at Worms in 1521. By this time his movement
had moved beyond the merely religious to the political, and the unity of the holy Roman Empire was threatened.
When Luther was ordered to give up his work, he boldly declared:
“Unless I be refuted by Scriptural testimonies, or by clear arguments—for I believe neither the Pope nor the councils alone, since it is clear that they have often erred and contradicted one another—I am convinced by the passages of Scripture, which I have cited, and my conscience is bound in the word of God. I cannot and will not recant anything; since it is insecure and
dangerous to act against conscience.”4 Luther’s resistance led to his excommunication from the church and to his being placed under the ban of the empire, which made him an outlaw.
Luther was protected by German princes who sympathized with his ideas and who wanted more political autonomy from Rome. This protection enabled him to begin a German translation of the Bible. This translation was of transcendent importance in all of Europe because it was the first common language translation not based on Jerome’s Latin Vulgate. Gradually new forms of worship and doctrinal innovations advocated by Luther were introduced in many of the German states. When it was evident the Catholic church would not reform, Luther’s followers founded the
Lutheran church. Lutheranism became the religion of many of the northern and central German states but never succeeded in winning Bavaria and the states to the east. The faith spread northward, however, into Scandinavia and from there into Iceland. While it cannot be said that Luther brought
religious freedom to Europe, the strength of his movement at least assured a pluralistic society where other religious groups could work for toleration. Although Luther was the most famous of the Reformers, he was not the first. A century and a half earlier, in the 1300s, John Wycliffe in England denounced the corruption and abuses of the Catholic church and condemned the pope as anti-Christ. He translated the scriptures and circulated them among the common people. He was strongly condemned by the church, but his teachings were widely accepted among his
countrymen. Thus, when Luther and other continental reformers began their work, many Englishmen sympathized with them.
The Reformation in England was different than in other countries. King Henry VIII, who disapproved of Luther, insisted that the pope did not have the authority to deny Henry a divorce from his wife. A quarrel ensued in which the king rejected the pope’s authority, and in 1533 the pope excommunicated the king. Henry then established the Church of England. The two major reformers in Switzerland were Ulrich Zwingli and John
Calvin. Zwingli convinced the citizens of Zurich that the Bible should be the only standard of religious truth. Using this standard Zwingli rejected life in a monastery, celibacy, the mass, and other Catholic practices. John Calvin was even more influential. At Geneva, he attempted to create a holy city around the biblical models. Gradually Calvinism became predominant in many parts of Switzerland, and from there it spread to France, England, Scotland, Holland, and in a lesser degree to Germany. John Knox, an early convert to Calvinism, helped refine and expand its teachings.
The Pilgrims and Puritans, two strict Calvinist groups who came to the New World, greatly influenced American values. For example, basic tenets of Calvinism prominent in early America included the absolute sovereignty of God, the election of man to grace, the idea that saved church members were to be instruments in God’s hand in redeeming others, and the concept
that the church was to be “a light on the hill” to influence the affairs of men in this world.
The work of all these reformers was in preparation for the restoration of the gospel. President Joseph Fielding Smith has written: “In preparation for this restoration the Lord raised up noble men, such as Luther, Calvin, Knox, and others whom we call reformers, and gave them power to break the shackles which bound the people and denied them the sacred right to worship God according to the dictates of conscience. . . .
“Latter-day Saints pay all honor to these great and fearless reformers, who shattered the fetters which bound the religious world. The Lord was their Protector in this mission, which was fraught with many perils. In that day, however, the time had not come for the restoration of the fulness of
the gospel. The work of the reformers was of great importance, but it was a preparatory work.”5

D I S C O V E R Y A N D C O L O N I Z A T I O N O F A M E R I C A
Another important preparation for the restoration of the gospel was the discovery and colonization of America. It had been preserved as a choice land from which the gospel would go to the nations of the earth in the last days. Moroni, an ancient American prophet, wrote: “Behold, this is a choice land, and whatsoever nation shall possess it shall be free from bondage, and from captivity, and from all other nations under heaven, if they will but serve the God of the land, who is Jesus Christ, who hath been manifested by the things which we have written” (Ether 2:12).
The arrival of Christopher Columbus was seen in vision by Nephi, also an ancient American prophet, over two thousand years before Columbus was born. “And I looked and beheld a man among the Gentiles, who was separated from the seed of my brethren [descendants of Lehi], by the many waters; and I beheld the Spirit of God, that it came down and wrought upon the man; and he went forth upon the many waters, even unto the seed of
my brethren, who were in the promised land” (1 Nephi 13:12). Columbus himself confirmed in his writings that he felt inspired in his ventures as a mariner and in establishing religion among the Indians.6 Nephi continued his prophecy: “And it came to pass that I beheld the Spirit of God, that it wrought upon other Gentiles; and they went forth out of captivity, upon the many waters” (1 Nephi 13:13). Many people who settled the promised land were led there by the hand of God (see 2 Nephi 1:6).
Nephi foresaw many other events in America. He saw that the
Lamanites would be scattered throughout the land by the Gentiles, and that the Gentiles would humble themselves and call upon the Lord, and the Lord would be with them. Nephi beheld that the Gentiles who had settled in North and South America would war against their “mother Gentiles” and would be delivered by the hand of the Lord (see 1 Nephi 13:14–19). President Joseph Fielding Smith said, “The discovery [of America] was
one of the most important factors in bringing to pass the purpose of the Almighty in the restoration of his Gospel in its fulness for the salvation of men in the latter days.”7

R E L I G I O U S F R E E D O M I N A M E R I C A
While many historians today insist that most early colonists came to America for economic reasons, many colonists were also seeking religious liberty. Among these were the Puritans, who established a powerful religious commonwealth in New England. They believed that they possessed the true faith and consequently did not tolerate any other religion.8 This intolerance had to be overcome before there could be a restoration of Christ’s church. Certain dissenters among the Puritans, Roger Williams chief among them, argued that there ought to be a clear distinction between church and
state and that no particular religion ought to be imposed upon the citizens. He also taught that all churches had fallen away from the true apostolic succession. Williams was banished from Massachusetts in 1635, and within a few years, he and others with similar ideas succeeded in obtaining a charter to establish the colony of Rhode Island, which allowed total toleration of all religions.
A courageous woman, Anne Hutchinson, who went to Massachusetts in 1634, disagreed with the local leaders on two theological issues: the role of good works in salvation and whether or not an individual may receive inspiration from the Holy Spirit. Mrs. Hutchinson was likewise banished from Massachusetts, and she sought refuge in Rhode Island in 1638. Despite the efforts of Roger Williams, Anne Hutchinson, and others, religious toleration was not achieved in New England for another century and a half. Meanwhile, various religiously motivated groups established settlements throughout the rest of the American colonies. Each in its way contributed to the religious environment of America. Roman Catholics who
settled Maryland passed the first toleration act in American history. Quakers in Pennsylvania also promoted religious tolerance and separation of church and state. The various colonists were of so many different faiths that it was impossible for any one denomination to predominate. This
religious pluralism was a major reason for the religious liberties that became a unique feature of the United States.
Even though there were many different churches in America, most
colonists did not claim membership in any particular denomination. An important movement in American religious history was the Great Awakening, which began about 1739 and continued for almost two decades. This first widespread revival in early American history was a fervent effort to restore righteousness and religious zeal. The Great Awakening swept
throughout the length and breadth of the thirteen colonies. Evangelists and itinerant preachers held services in informal settings, including homes, barns, and even pastures. The Great Awakening kindled a religious commitment that had not been felt in America for years, and it promoted greater participation by both laymen and ministers in the affairs of organized religion. It also aroused within the colonial Americans a desire to
unite in a democratic order.9 In spite of this zeal, complete religious freedom was not achieved in America until the American Revolution enhanced the climate for religious
freedom. As colonists united against the British, they discovered that their religious differences were really not important to their cause and that they could agree on the essentials of their religious beliefs.10 Furthermore, Thomas Jefferson (1743–1826) wanted to be remembered for three things in his long and illustrious career as one of America’s finest statesmen. He wanted to be known as the author of the Declaration of American Independence, the founding father of the
University of Virginia, and the author of the statute of Virginia for religious freedom, which was adopted in 1785.

P R E L U D E T O T H E R E S TO R AT I O N
11
Thomas Jefferson was a fierce opponent of undue pressures upon
government by organized religion. The Declaration of Independence, which he wrote, stated that man was capable of discovering correct political institutions for himself.
With the new feeling of freedom that followed the Revolutionary War, several states sought to protect basic human rights, including religious liberty. Virginia was one of the first in 1785 when it adopted Jefferson’s Bill for Establishing Religious Freedom, which guaranteed that no person could
be forced to attend or support any church or be discriminated against because of his religious preference.11
After a few years as an unsuccessful confederation of states, the United States drafted a new constitution in 1787 that was ratified in 1789. This document, which was formed “by the hands of wise men whom [the Lord] raised up unto this very purpose” (D&C 101:80), embodied both the democratic impulse for freedom and the fundamental need for order. Freedom of religion was guaranteed in the first amendment to the Constitution.
The Prophet Joseph Smith stated that “the Constitution of the United States is a glorious standard; it is founded in the wisdom of God. It is a heavenly banner; it is to all those who are privileged with the sweets of liberty, like the cooling shades and refreshing waters of a great rock in a thirsty and
weary land.”12 One reason this was true was because “under the Constitution the Lord could restore the gospel and reestablish his church. . . . Both were part of a greater whole. Both fit into his pattern for the latter days.”13 Concurrent with the American Revolution and the establishment of the
Constitution was a Second Awakening that brought about a reorientation of Christian thinking. Several new religious societies grew in strength and held a variety of beliefs: Unitarians, Universalists, Methodists, Baptists, and
Disciples of Christ. Many beliefs were introduced in the new nation, including the idea that there was a need for the restoration of New Testament Christianity. Those searching for this restoration were popularly known as seekers. Many of them were ripe for the divine Restoration and became its early converts.14 Almost concurrently with the Second Great Awakening, there arose a spirit of revivalism. Itinerant preachers held spirited camp meetings among new settlers in frontier areas of the growing United States. Lonely settlers from farms and villages gathered in huge crowds to enjoy the camp
meetings. Noisy but gifted preachers lent a festive air to these religious gatherings while trying to win converts to their faith.15 The Second Great Awakening also influenced the formation of voluntary associations to promote missionary work, education, moral reform, and humanitarianism. Revivals brought religious emotions to a fever pitch and aided the growth of the popular denominations, particularly the Methodists and Baptists.16 This religious awakening lasted for at least forty years, including the time of Joseph Smith’s first vision.
The restoration of the gospel and of the Lord’s true Church could not have taken place amidst the religious intolerance in Europe and early America. It was only possible in the setting of religious liberty, reevaluation of Christian thinking, and spiritual awakening that had developed in early nineteenth-century America. The Lord’s hand was evident in directing that
the Restoration take place exactly when it did. According to one historian, there was a special timing to when the
Restoration took place: “Its timing in 1830 was providential. It appeared at precisely the right moment in American history; much earlier or later and the Church might not have taken hold. The Book of Mormon would probably not have been published in the eighteenth century, in that still largely oral world of folk
beliefs prior to the great democratic revolution that underlay the religious tumult of the early Republic. In the eighteenth century, Mormonism might have been too easily stifled and dismissed by the dominant enlightened gentry culture as just another enthusiastic folk superstition. Yet if Mormonism had emerged later, after the consolidation of authority and the
spread of science in the middle decades of the nineteenth century, it might have had problems of verifying its texts and revelations.”17 God knows the end from the beginning and is the author of the grand design of human history. He directed the affairs of history so that America was appropriately fertile soil for the seed of the restored gospel to be planted and tended by his chosen seer, Joseph Smith.

Whoo...sorry so long...

With respect, none of these posts have answered my questions. You have simply pasted more Biblical prophecies that you believe are true.

It does answer your questions from my perspective.....

Although not what you want to hear.

I started posting this, Linda, before sending the other. I can't really answer this other than pertains to my own experience. Prophecy IS revelation.....

I personally believe that people through the dark ages could still be in touch with Heaven if they were open to it. Joan of Arc is another example. I don't know about Nostradamus. People are entitled to inspiration and there are psychics out there, too. What we believe about actual prophecy, though, is that it has to pertain to a person's sphere of responsiblity. For instance, the president of our church, only, has the keys to guide our church (the world...) but those serving over smaller organizations can receive revelation pertaining to that organization they run. I have been in presidencies, before, where we would pray for who to put in callings, ie., as teachers, etc. The presidency acts together to have a checks and balances type system, but ultimately its the president's decision. When in both Primary and Young Woman presidencies, I experienced that guidance...and we all did together. (We got the same answers). There was one instance where I didn't feel good about someone, he was put in anyway, but it turned out he was having an affair (and was married to the Bishop's daughter - it was my opinion the Bishop pushed for him because of his being his son-in-law thinking it would be good for him which I couldn't argue with, but after the fact, the truth came out. We had to release him....

I've had revelations in order to guide my own family. Sometimes we don't realize the Holy Ghost is actually talking to us or teaching us but they WANT to. We just have to be willing to listen. (And pray!!!!)

That is why this is a hard thing to argue. You have to hone spiritual listening, though. The still, small, voice. I really don't know what Catholics learn and I'm likely taking it for granted that you know some of the things I'm referring to or talking about, but may not.

I sometimes seem to say unrelated things to people in person, too. Even my husband gets frustrated cause he will be saying something and I'll know what he's getting at so try and interject before he's finished. May not sound like it in saying that, but I'm a good listener. Just jump ahead some times.

My thoughts are flitting around a lot, too, and I should be more deliberate before posting...

One more thing - did you read the thing I *think* I sent in about God seeing all things at once - past, present and future? He is looking at us on the basis of time but viewing from eternity. I guess you could call it kind of a dimensional thing....

Thanks for at least being able to entertain the subject...

willing, not able. Sheesh - I need to proofread better. i'm acting like this is instant messaging, too. I'll try and be more careful. Even though i don't believe in using astrology there does seem to be something to the zodiac signs which makes me a pisces/aries cusp with 5 capricorns, scorpio, aquarius, pisces in Venus (makes me a sap but I'm also practical, etc. etc. Sorry - I'll shut up now : ) I feel like garbage so only want to sit here, but really need to get something accomplished.... I think you're a good person LindaLou. it has been interesting.

(The point to being aries is the tendency to be a little impulsive as I am on sending posts.....

Just wanted to verify that you were indeed talking recap.

I did not make unfounded statements. The thread is available for anyone who cares to view it.

Linda, the bible prophecies are there in every bible, quote and verse is the same. I cannot possibly put them in my own words, since it's from God's biblical word (not mine). In order to spell out enough of them to you, to back up the 100% (so far) track record, it requires many more than one prophecy to do this and would be very easily ridiculed by you if that were the case.

It makes little sense for me to sit here and read the entire bible to collect each prophetic quote (I simply cannot do so, nor have the time or energy), and considering the job has already been done by passionate Christian people, it makes no logical sense to sit and do so. The internet in this regard is ideal. A wonderful tool.

Even without the comments associated from those far more studied than I, one can simply go by quote and verse and look them up and read if they wish. Or pick and and choose just a few if one wants. Nobody can complain not enough was given or too much was given, because it's easy for anybody to read and go check what they wish out of it.

Please quit wasting people's time on here with your antibiblical venom, and searching for ongoing excuses to spit and deny. Your post responses were predicted well in advance and you played them out perfectly. Very typical and expected.

Let other people who do not have such anger issues, delight and rejoice in discovering God's word as truth and may they get something out of the posts.

And thank you Abishag for your kind acknowledgement! Though I am not a great student of the bible . However, many people are and have kindly and painstakingly listed each quote and verse themselves, which would take quite sometime to get listed if one is to prove that there are many of them, rather than "just a few".

See, if only a few had been given, Linda might well have taken the opposite stance and scoffed at that instead "is that all?" hahahahahahaha (would not surprise me). Doesn't really matter what you present, you'll find criticism in anything. This is frequently employed by her on this forum, experienced by the others also.

Sorry CTD, but common embrionic development is not recapitulation of phylogeny ...

... it does not mean that human embryos go through all the stages of fish embryos, just that they share stages of development with closely related organisms, the closer the relationship the more the developmental stages are shared. The more distantly related organisms diverge in development sooner.

Are you, for example contesting that human embryos have tails in their early stages?

Enjoy.

Just a note to readers, we have actually been through this before. Another example of old arguments being renewed and acted like they were never addressed, which is why those interested would do themselves (and us) a big favour in going back and reading old posts, because it's relied upon that you won't!

At any rate, this is an evolutionary tale of a "tail". Basic biology/anatomy knows the coccyx is a very important bone in the body, as it is required for support of posture and defecation (and other things)...

Evolutionists like to find traits and fit them in with us ascending from lower animals. But is this "tale/tail" honest? Consider this:

As the baby is developing in the womb, some areas are unfolding first for good reason. The spine will indeed stick out to be much more noticeable, as it then stimulates the muscles and limbs to develop/surround/envelop. Consider all the nerves/brain/eye centres in connection with the spine. The need for first frame/foundation should be no real mystery to anybody who puts some thoughts into this and why the rest of the growth relies upon it.

After further growth of surrounding areas, the coccyx winds up inside the body. Just another example of the miracle of the developing human being.

I just don't see how Biblical prophecies can be considered as concrete proof of the inerrancy of the Bible by anyone other than the fundamentalists who see them as such.

No one, for example, has commented on the article I linked to which raises questions about prophecies being written after the fact, coincidences, interpretations of wording, etc. And there are Biblical prophecies which were not fulfilled.

Some other problems are outlined here.

Also, no one has explained why Biblical prophecies are true while other religious prophecies, such as those of Hinduism, are not.

It is of course your choice to read Biblical prophecies as proof for whatever you like. Offering them as "proof" for other Biblical claims, such as literal creation, is more problematic, though I don't see that anyone has explicitly attempted to do so here (yet).

What was that you said in the other thread about Christian tenets? Maybe you should take your own advice? But then again if you do it it's okay, correct? But if someone else does it, it's not okay, correct?

And what does bible prophecy have to do with flat earth? I guess as much as mystics have to do with evolution, and pink unicorns with creation?

Please point out where I am insulting the Christian religion in my post. I am questioning belief in the inerrancy of Biblical prophecies as proof of Biblical inerrancy, and also asking why the same standards aren't applied to other religious and non-religious prophecies. It would be refreshing if you could simply answer my questions, thanks. Please bear in mind that the kinds of questions I've raised have also been raised by Christians, and not all Christians view Biblical prophecies in the same way.

Still not flat earth.

Biblical inerrancy = flat earth?

Bible prophecy = flat earth?

Maybe we start discusing the birth and death of Jesus too? Maybe the flood? Job, The apostles? Why not throw a little judgement too? It's all fair game as long as you approve, right?

Please answer my questions. Thanks.

In a nutshell: How can Biblical prophecies be used to show the inerrancy of the Bible (and by implication, a literal creation) when not all Christians agree on their interpretation or whether they have all come to pass? And why is the same standard of inerrancy not applied to other religious and non-religious prophecies? In other words, what is your system for determining that the prophecies of the Bible are the Truth and not others? Hindus claim that their prophecies are divine and have been, or will be, fulfilled, so who is right? Can you claim that it is anything other than a matter of personal belief?

LL: were not fulfilled. Jeanie: Actually I know of none that have not been fulfilled and some still have to do with future events not yet happening which you can see a trend toward happening!

LL: Some other problems are outlined here.

Also, no one has explained why Biblical prophecies are true while other religious prophecies, such as those of Hinduism, are not.

Jeanie: As I said, I can't answer to who has been truly inspired and who has not. But the big big...article (actually from a manual) I sent in explains through history exactly how things went down with religion. But i also believe in modern day revelation.....(and there have been prophesies which HAVE come to pass there, too, as I sent in).

Hi, folks!

I've been watching this thread with avid interest for a bit now and thought I'd chime in with my own two cents on the matter.

First off. Regarding religion. I have no intention of jumping in here and saying someone's choice in religion is wrong or off. And I'm just saying that so it's been said.

As far as prophecies, themselves, go. Well. That's a different matter I find. I don't know of anyone who has become Christian simply because of something that's written in the bible. In my experience, it's because their heart told them. And that's totally fair enough.

What I don't agree with, or really just see as a logical fallacy, is citing that because a prophecy came to fruition it is therefore evidence of the existence of a creator - namely, God. Arguably speaking the words of prophecy could have been written by the devil or some other malicious being. How do you know it's from God? Just because some words say X will happen and it later does happen does not verify who the alleged author of the writing is. If I found a slip of paper on the street which said 'In exactly two days from now xxx is going to take place across the world. Signed, Guenivere' I have no way of knowing that someone named Guenivere really wrote it. I just know that someone accurately predicted something and claims to be someone.

Then there's the question of prophecy vs. good guesswork. I could very well predict what the state of human affairs will be like in 1,000 years hence and I'm certainly no divine being! If a prophecy talks about rebellion, war, or destruction those words will come true sooner or later. This isn't the work of a sibyl or a prescient, it's not prophecy. It's forecasting! This begs the question, how does one decide when a prophecy is the actual work of prescience and when it's a good guess?

So religious beliefs aside, I guess I see prophecy as a very questionable affair. As Bex or one of the other posters indicated, there are lots of old scriptures (Buddhist, Christian, Muslim and so on) with their own prophecies. Who's to say which one is "the right one"! It's something I like to think about and mull over, though have no expectations of coming up with an answer, heh. Call it food for thought.

Anyway. All the best, everyone!

Thanks for chiming in, and it's nice to hear a new voice. I hope you'll decide to stick around and share more of your opinions, the more the merrier

Since when is truth determined by vote? Either someone had foreknowledge or they didn't. The method of testing this is both obvious and scientific.

Applied by whom? Nobody's stopping you from applying it, are they?

Your first. What is your system?

It is a matter of investigation. Anyone can investigate any such claims they encounter.

If one chooses to follow the procedures recommended in the bible, a single miss is all it takes to falsify a claim that an individual is/was a prophet. This is parallel to the scientific rule which falsifies an hypothesis if it fails even once.

But how do we determine whether they had foreknowledge? And how do we determine what is actually being predicted? Many prophecies I've read tend to be vague or ambiguous in their wording, which leaves people free to read what they want into them.

I linked to this page earlier but I will link to it again here:

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CH/CH110.html

Because it does highlight several reasons why an objective reader of the Bible might not immediately believe that the prophecies therein are all unfailingly true.

Would you like to tell us what your own scientific method of investigating the prophecies is?



So all prophecies across the world are true too? No? Just the Biblical ones? If that is what you claim, then why, unless you have also investigated all these other prophecies too?



See above. Mordred made some good points too, such as guesswork and inevitability, just a few posts ago.



Studying a prophecy isn't the same as studying a rock. You don't think someone might get this prediction business wrong once in a while? Maybe the hotline to the source of the prediction wasn't working too well that day?

I'd also be interested in a clarification of whether you think the alleged inerrancy of Biblical prophecies is an indicator of the inerrancy of the Bible, including the literal Genesis creation. If you don't, then there's not much point in pursuing this discussion here.

Well, I guess that Ezekiel was not a prophet since Tyre is still here and the Nile never dried up and Egypt has not ever been abandoned for 7 years.

Thanks for the heads up.

LL: Would you like to tell us what your own scientific method of investigating the prophecies is?

Jeanie: Personally I do not have the capability or understanding nor the background in ancient history enough to even understand many of the older prophecies. We have an LDS version of the King James Version of the Bible that our leaders who ARE well qualified (either by virtue of their backgrounds or their callings) which is annotated with footnotes all throughout scripture with cross references to help with how to understand these things as far as when they happened or what they are pertaining to. But for humble me - my scientific method is to PRAY...because the spirit tells you what you need to know which applies to your own life. I don't personally feel the need to prove the Bible is true. I am most interested in the scriptures which pertain to our day and to the future. And by the way, any scripture which has said anything about wars in MY books, (literally) have been QUITE specific. Note the ones I sent in that Joseph Smith (Yes a PROPHET) said about the civil war.

I imagine, Linear, that the prophecy in Ezekial you refer to came to pass a long time ago unless it is still going to happen in the future. Ezekial did speak for our day...

No one responded to my statement about prophecies vs. guesswork and the fact that many religions the world over have prophecies of their own

I really want to discuss this point, folks!

Awww....that sad face... How could I not respond to that?


Mordred: What I don't agree with, or really just see as a logical fallacy, is citing that because a prophecy came to fruition it is therefore evidence of the existence of a creator - namely, God. Arguably speaking the words of prophecy could have been written by the devil or some other malicious being. How do you know it's from God? Just because some words say X will happen and it later does happen does not verify who the alleged author of the writing is. If I found a slip of paper on the street which said 'In exactly two days from now xxx is going to take place across the world. Signed, Guenivere' I have no way of knowing that someone named Guenivere really wrote it. I just know that someone accurately predicted something and claims to be someone.

Jeanie: Those are good points. I don't think every prophecy even is of God. But not needing to prove to myself His existence, I do take what we have been warned about for literally decades to heart. Within our own church we have been given warning (for over 100 years) to prepare for times of economic unrest and to learn to produce our own food, store it, etc. etc. We are in a very cool and even elite period of the earth's life now when things are getting and going to get much tougher in a lot of ways. The reason I said elite is because believing we existed before we came here as spirits, the strongest were kept for this time to come to earth. My stance is that the same God who spoke to the ancient prophets (Biblical or other spiritual leaders? We also believe there were prophets here on the American continent during certain times, at least, and use the Book of Mormon as a companoin to the Bible so not as strict on that one) also speaks to us today!! The Book of Mormon was actually written for our day and didn't come forth till the early 1800's and its wording has not been changed aside from its translation from reformed egyptian to English (and very other language out there just about). I feel God in my every day life.... When I don't I am the one who has drawn from him not the other way around. My belief system as I personally call it answers all my questions. Concerning the creation, we do have more detail on that from the Books of Moses and Abraham which are not in the Bible. And regarding evolution....we know from inspiration that it was quite literal. As far as how long it took to happen, that is another story. We are told we will know at some point, but it is not important to our salvation whether you accept the earth as young, or that creation took 6,000 years or even longer. Personally my thoughts are that it likely fell somewhere in between 6,000 to longer. Actually I incline more toward older...I guess its called old earth creationism. I do believe, though, that Adam came as a man as he was and had no need to evolve. In fact - humans have DEVOLVED since Adam. He was quite the specimen.....He lived to be almost 1000 years old.