A man lays dying of cancer in the hospital. A new age believer tries to deny what he wants, and justify what he did by making him think that he can make his own reality and sin atonement for killing an innocent person for a crime that he later finds out he did not commit. So basically, the guy who is dying in the video is looking for sin atonement for killing an innocent person before he dies himself. The video has a strong message.



Added: So what would you think of a Judge (God) who did not punish for sin or crime? Would not He would also be as guilty as the one who committed the crime because not punishing for the crime would make Him an accessory after the fact, right? So if someone thinks that God allows everyone to be judged the same. And you yourself think that some how you will skate by and all will be okay. Then you are saying that God is not a just judge because allowing some to skate by makes Him a respector of persons. And any judge that becomes a respecter of "any" type person is one that will also turn a blind eye to crime or sin regardless of what it is.

acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

So those of you who think salvation is a ticket to sin. Or that regardless of what you do you can never lose your salvation. You make God into a Judge that respects people which in turn makes Him unjust.

You can read about a new doctrine of judgement I have come up with that shows that all will have to be judged under the same rules. And that no one gets respected more than another. And no one gets put into hell that did not deserve to be there. And every bit of this doctrine is backable by the word of God.

http://herballure.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=39044#Post#39086

It's the second post in the thread.....

Absolutely!!! There are some who believe that "I am saved" therefore "I can do as I wish". One of the most heretical lies I've heard yet and one of the most dangerous. Many buy into it though because it makes them feel good...To me it's playing games with salvation, games with Christ's offering and games with ones soul. Yes some really do think this is a one-way ticket straight to Heaven which is completely wrong. Yes, christ's blood was shed for all and those who would accept His offering for their sins, would be saved. Does this mean we can then live in sin? NO. Christ warned against those who profess with the mouth, but live in sin.

Repent and change your lives! Be perfect, as your Father in Heaven is perfect, Christ told us. Nobody can be perfect on their own, but with the Holy Spirit? The sinner decreases and Christ in us, INCREASES. Therefore it is Christ who makes us holy and it is possible for any human being to be a Saint because of this. This is a lifelong struggle for many of us and we will fall many times over, as Christ fell under HIs cross, but He's given us the means to get back up. His forgiveness is ongoing, but again, not a game! Thankfully we do have an understanding and merciful God, but also a Just one (which we should not forget either).

I'm not sure what this has to do with evolution and creationism, can you clarify? Or is this simply an attempt to ridicule me, since you have labelled me as a "new ager" (which is not how I describe myself)?

"New Age" is not a religion, and it encompasses a very disperate number of ideas. Would you like to define what you think it is?

The stereotyping never stops with you does it? Yet you vehemently complain about this very thing being done to creationists. I don't think I'm too keen to bite the bait this time, especially since this is just another disctraction from relevant issues under discussion elsewhere.

Upon further reflection, this appears to be a discussion of Christian tenets, with the odd label of "I do not like new age beliefs." Maybe you'd like to take further comments to the Bible forum.

I guess those pink umicorns have come back to haunt you.



god is in everything is what I remember you saying. Which by the way has nothing to do with evolution, or does it?



Like I said before, the pink unicorns have come back to haunt you.

And by the way, discussing subjects in the middle of a debate that have nothing to even do with science is an attempt to throw of the thread subject. Pm messaging is used for that. But you knew that now didn't you? So I dished up a little of your own medicine. Find it hard to swallow do we?

Yeah, you would like it removed from this section. Don't need reminders of what you do to others and approval of others also do it, but complain when it's done unto you.

Personally, I find "Do unto others as you perceive they have done unto you" a bit unBiblical. Maybe my interpretation is wrong.

Matthew 5:43-48

Romans 12:14 and Romans 12:17-21

Also, I think this is the wrong forum for this thread unless you can show how the Theory of Evolution requires "New Age" theology.

Hey Linda, what section was it that you brought up that you were a mystic, and what did that have to do with any debate?



So you have a degree in theology now? Or was this the usual evolutionist attempt to make the Christian feel guilty? I wonder though what make a evolutionist fell guilty? Nothing I guess, have not seen a moral code that could be quoted back to them when they mess up. Must be because they never had one.

Linda didn't write the stuff in the quote below.

Do I need a degree in theology to see that Christ said to love your enemies and that you should treat others in the manner that you wish to be treated? Maybe you could enlighten me as to the deeper meaning in the Golden Rule and Matt 5:43-48 that I am failing to see.

Perhaps Christ only meant that to apply to your enemies who also follow Christ.


I had modified my behavior in response to your pointing out that you did not like the insinuations of the evolutionists on this board. I thought your starting threads that insulted evolutionists was your way of showing us our poor behavior and you would go back to meaningful debate. I even asked you to point out when I have insulted you. Is pointing out when you stray from your own belief system now considered an insult?

Here you state openly that all evolutionists follow no moral code. If you don't consider that an insult to evolutionists, then I grieve for your lack of empathy and inability to allow the Holy Spirit to guide your actions.

I wonder which is worse, not having a moral code or saying you have one and choosing to ignore it?

Regarding the OP: The opposite of this would be if one posted a thread titled, "Why I don't agree with Christian teachings," and a video link to someone who justifies immoral acts with the Bible (as has happened many times in history with large groups of people). The accompanying implicit assumptions:

-- That this person's version of Christianity is the one and only true one;
-- That therefore Christianity is immoral and so are all its adherents;
-- That this video and accompanying comments are going to show them the error of their ways;
-- That this has got anything at all to do with evolution or creationism.

I don't follow the logic and I doubt if any others here will either.

Actually, Ikester, I'm waiting for you to come back to your "Questions evolutionists can't answer" thread and address the questions that three evolutionists have answered, rather than hang out in threads like this making yet more ad hominem comments.

Bex, I know this is off topic but just want to say you put this beautifully. I know of some religions here that really do teach that....that as long as you are "saved" its ok. There is something to grace, but there is more to it than that.

I'm waiting for you to start acting like an adult. But we all know that's impossible.

Well, ikester,

Perhaps you could show us what you mean.

Enjoy.

The part in bold certainly pertains to this area of the forum. The entire false dichotomy preached by evolutionists & their diest/theist allies hinges on one's capacity to make one's own reality. There can be no conflict between scripture and science unless persons are in fact capable of creating their own realities.

* I haven't had a chance to watch the video yet.

Hi there, CTD.

I just wanted to throw out there that I'm more or less an evolutionist and I don't believe these things. It makes me angry that any evolutionist would think in the above way but I can assure you: I'm definitely not one of them

The problem I have with this is that God has only one requirement for innocence...Believe that Christ died for your sins and confess with your mouth that He is Lord. So if Hitler, Stalin or Pol Pot confessed and truly believed just before they died then they would be standing next to Paul and Peter in Heaven. However, a Jewish man could have followed every commandment and law to the letter all his life, but be put in Hell because he didn't believe that Christ is God's son. In fact some of those people that Hitler had killed could be judged and condemned, while Hitler looks on as he happily enters the gates of Heaven.

From a secularist point of view that is rather unjust.

Obviously, the patient in the show didn't know that he could ask for forgiveness through Christ and receive it from God.

Linear: The problem I have with this is that God has only one requirement for innocence...Believe that Christ died for your sins and confess with your mouth that He is Lord.

Jeanie: I would argue that point. I believe Bex would, too. It isn't that simple. The goal is to at least be progressing to being worthy to live in God and Jesus' presence. It requires repentance... I actually researched the murder issue, too, and its not so easy to be forgiven for that. My husband was once in a band with a guy who killed his wife after tanking up on whiskey and valium when he found out she had gone out on him. He shot her down right in the middle of a street in broad daylight. He claims no memory. Could be - and I am certainly not his judge, but I looked into the issue. Someone who has committed such a sin would have to do some serious repenting.... And there is more to it than that.

But we have a different twist on the whole hell issue, too. We believe there are 3 degrees of glory as it is spoken of in 1st Corinthians...the glory of the sun (Celestial), moon (Terrestrial) and stars (tellestial).

telestial (spelled wrong)

Pretty interesting observation there! It reminds me of The Return of the Jedi when Luke speaks to his dying father who says that Luke had saved him. It almost seemed to suggest that Vader (Annakin?) has been redeemed for his years of pulverizing planets and decimating millions of people throughout his lifetime.

I'm sure whatever afterlife awaits us, if one does, its justice system would have to take into account all the many variables. It can't be as simple as confess and you're in but don't confess yet live a good life and too bad for you!

Though I get what you're saying about the general idea of confession being hypocritical. I wasn't baptized or raised religious but most Christians I know though don't see it as simple as that.

It could always be worse though. Anubis could be weighing our heart to see if it's heavier than a feather. And if that's the case, then we're all up lake Acheron without a paddle, aren't we

Sounds like works-righteousness, to me.

I have no problem with you or Bex countering what I say. I would appreciate some Bible references to support your contention that all your sins are not forgiven when you accept Christ's Lordship in your life.

I can support my position with a simple trot down the old Roman Road.

The Hindus have got it solved with karma and reincarnation. Amass bad karma in this life, and you'll come back as an ant that gets stepped on . . . or a fly that gets swatted . . . or a spider that gets washed down the plughole . . . something along those lines.

Nope Linear - we believe in grace, too. But its both. You know, though, with the attitude on here right now I tend to agree with Bex that this is a waste of my time. No one on here seems to want to truly understand. That's on you. I've got things to do. I honestly care about you guys... But I'm not going to spend all this time making my carpal tunnel get sore just to have these smart-[censored] comments made back.

Sorry.....I feel better mentally (now) - but I really feel like ****. Makes me short tempered, but get over things quick.. I took a break.

Linear: I have no problem with you or Bex countering what I say. I would appreciate some Bible references to support your contention that all your sins are not forgiven when you accept Christ's Lordship in your life.

Jeanie: I found a good article which has scriptural references and puts it in perspective much better than I could...

Our Destiny
Elder L. Aldin Porter
Of the Presidency of the Seventy


L. Aldin Porter, “Our Destiny,” Ensign, Nov 1999, 65

Some months ago, following a session of stake conference, a lovely young lady in her late teens spoke with me expressing concern over some aspects of the proclamation on the family. Her attitude was not one of rejection but of a sincere desire to understand. I have given her concern a great deal of thought.

The God of creation spoke to Moses in an effort to help him understand the destiny of this world: “And worlds without number have I created; and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten” (Moses 1:33).

Note the Lord’s words: “I created them for mine own purpose.” The Lord had a purpose in establishing worlds, and in just a few verses, He explained what it was: “For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man” (Moses 1:39).

It is clear that the Lord had a plan laid out for the accomplishment of His purposes. In the scriptures we read of the many names of the plan: “the great plan of happiness,” “the plan of redemption,” “the merciful plan of the great Creator,” “the plan of salvation,” “the plan of justice,” and “the great plan of the Eternal God.”

Each name emphasizes one aspect or another of the plan. But in reality there is only one plan called by many names through which God means to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

Think of an airplane leaving the airport with the complete journey mapped out. The pilots and crew know where they are going, and they won’t get off course and fail to reach their destination once in 50,000 times, unless weather or mechanical troubles interfere. Now, imagine another airplane with a captain and crew but no flight plan. The engines are started, and the plane moves down the runway. Yet as it begins to climb, the crew doesn’t know whether to turn east or to turn west. If you are on that airplane, you will have almost no chance of arriving at your destination. It is clear to each of us that an airplane crew needs a flight plan.

So it is with our lives. One cannot make wise long-range decisions unless one understands that there is purpose here and recognizes that he must understand at least some aspects of the merciful plan of the great Creator.

The Lord has given us instructions and commandments to help us fulfill the destiny which He envisions for us. Commandments are best understood after one knows something of the plan. Alma taught this principle when he said, “Therefore God gave unto them commandments, after having made known unto them the plan of redemption, that they should not do evil, the penalty thereof being a second death, which was an everlasting death as to things pertaining unto righteousness; for on such the plan of redemption could have no power, for the works of justice could not be destroyed, according to the supreme goodness of God” (Alma 12:32; emphasis added).

A very important part of the plan is the right of personal choice. The Lord calls it moral agency. We may choose as we desire, but we may not avoid the consequences of our choices. Think on that. We are permitted to make our choices in life, but we ought not then call the plan unfair because we must accept the results of our choices.

The center of the plan is the Lord Jesus Christ. Reject or ignore Him, and the great plan of happiness cannot function in your behalf. His life was dedicated in His premortal existence, through mortality, and even on into the eternal worlds to establishing the Father’s plan to our blessing and benefit. The cost to the Master was monumental. Think of the pain of Gethsemane and of His suffering on Calvary. This should give us some concept of the enormous importance of the plan of redemption.

Pride, pursuing the vain things of the world, unchastity, misunderstanding gender roles, greed, and a disregard for the sacredness of human life are just a few of the obstacles in mortality. They can hinder us or prevent us from reaching our destination. The plan allows for repentance, but it does not allow for acceptance of self-destructive behavior.

“For I the Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance;

“Nevertheless, he that repents and does the commandments of the Lord shall be forgiven” (D&C 1:31–32).

Understanding the plan can give us great consolation in the severe tests that come to humankind. Further, that understanding will strengthen our faith. One of the most difficult tests is separation from loved ones through death. The plan is a great comfort if we understand the following words of scripture:

“For as death hath passed upon all men, to fulfil the merciful plan of the great Creator, there must needs be a power of resurrection, and the resurrection must needs come unto man by reason of the fall; and the fall came by reason of transgression; and because man became fallen they were cut off from the presence of the Lord” (2 Ne. 9:6).

We are literally sons and daughters of God. That reality should permeate every fiber of our beings. Knowing this one truth will greatly influence the decisions of life that can bring us either great joy or bitter regret.

Many who design the philosophies of men know little or nothing of the purposes of God. Their secular concepts are often woefully inadequate for eternal purposes. If, for instance, one believes that man’s existence on earth is an accident of nature—one’s judgment will be flawed. These modern-day philosophers do not know of the premortal life of mankind, nor are they aware of the eternal destiny of man. How could they possibly build principles that will endure the tests of centuries?

President Gordon B. Hinckley announced the proclamation on the family, saying: “With so much of sophistry that is passed off as truth, with so much of deception concerning standards and values, with so much of allurement and enticement to take on the slow stain of the world, we have felt to warn and forewarn. In furtherance of this we of the First Presidency and the Council of the Twelve Apostles now issue a proclamation to the Church and to the world as a declaration and reaffirmation of standards, doctrines, and practices relative to the family which the prophets, seers, and revelators of this church have repeatedly stated throughout its history” (“Stand Strong against the Wiles of the World,” Ensign, Nov. 1995, 100).

Some complain that when the prophets speak with clarity and firmness that they are taking our agency away. We are still free to choose. But we must accept the consequences of those decisions. The prophets do not take away our agency. They simply warn us of what the consequences of our choices will be. How foolish to fault the prophets for their warnings.

Develop faith in the prophets and their admonitions. Seek the confirmation of the Spirit that they are inspired. Then when they speak and you respond positively to their counsel, you will find comfort, peace, and even joy.

Alma, an ancient prophet, felt very strong feelings of concern for his fellowmen when he said, “Yea, I would declare unto every soul, as with the voice of thunder, repentance and the plan of redemption, that they should repent and come unto our God, that there might not be more sorrow upon all the face of the earth” (Alma 29:2).

When we understand the great plan of the Eternal God, the proclamation on the family brings peace and certainty. The very work bears witness of itself, for the Spirit of God attends it.

The message of the proclamation will comfort parents who may be questioning their roles in the home. It will bring security to children as they are raised by parents who love them and understand their divine destiny. And it will bring lasting happiness to the young woman who spoke to me as she understands and fulfills the role designed for her by an all-wise and loving Father in Heaven. In the name of Jesus Christ, amen

Like Bex said in so many words, you don't just "accept Jesus Christ as your Savior" and then live like you want to.

We all have conscience....but we also believe that the Gospel is preached beyond the grave for those who didn't have a chance in this life. Only the Lord can judge hearts as far as who really didn't understand or hear, perhaps, the whole truth.

If you "really" want to understand check out www.mormon.org

For Linear: This may answer some of you previous questions about the fairness concerning those who die in "innocence" as it was put.....

Physical death is the separation of the spirit from the mortal body. The Fall of Adam brought physical death into the world (see Moses 6:48). Because of the Atonement and Resurrection of Jesus Christ, all mankind will be resurrected and redeemed from physical death.

Death is an essential part of Heavenly Father's plan of salvation (see 2 Nephi 9:6). In order to become like our Eternal Father, we must experience death and later receive perfect, resurrected bodies.

When the physical body dies, the spirit continues to live. In the spirit world, the spirits of the righteous "are received into a state of happiness, which is called paradise, a state of rest, a state of peace, where they shall rest from all their troubles and from all care, and sorrow" (Alma 40:12). A place called spirit prison is reserved for "those who [have] died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, or in transgression, having rejected the prophets" (D&C 138:32). The spirits in prison are "taught faith in God, repentance from sin, vicarious baptism for the remission of sins, the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands, and all other principles of the gospel that [are] necessary for them to know" (D&C 138:33–34). If they accept the principles of the gospel, repent of their sins, and accept ordinances performed in their behalf in temples, they will be welcomed into paradise.

Because of the Atonement and Resurrection of Jesus Christ, physical death is only temporary: "As in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive" (1 Corinthians 15:22). Everyone will be resurrected, meaning that every person's spirit will be reunited with his or her body—"restored to their proper and perfect frame" and no longer subject to death (Alma 40:23; see also Alma 11:44-45

From www.lds.org

You can actually read from the Book of Mormon online. Third Nephi is a great book - about the coming of Christ to
America. It isn't as hard to read or digest as the O.T. and in story form... Teaches all the same principals and doctrine as the Bible but is the "plainness of the Gospel." More clear.

http://scriptures.lds.org/bm/contents

Sorry about losing patience earlier. I felt kind of picked on. I had a clove of raw garlic and feel much better. I think you are a sweet guy.... It was actually LINDA LOU's comments who got to me more. And I didn't think you were sincere. I do, though....