So what is the creation science explanation CTD?

Originally Posted by CTD
Originally Posted by RAZD
Sadly CTD this does not answer the question. The issue is whether or not any creationist has used the biblical flood as a cause for the formation of the Grand Canyon, not how many articles you can present that don't discuss this.
No. It's not about any creationist. It's about creation science. I've never claimed no creationist exists who isn't well-educated on every topic.
Sadly, what LindaLou and I have been talking about is that creationists have used - and continue to use - the flood as the cause of the Grand Canyon, and you do not get to redefine what we were talking about to suit your argument.

I'll take this as agreement that some creationists have used the flood as the cause of the Grand Canyon. I'll also agree that this may be due to a lack of education on some of the finer points.

Note that we also have repeatedly asked for your explanation, so the lack of information "about creation science" and how it explains the process is not our failure. When people go to AiG and see articles like the one quoted it is not their fault if the information is wrong is it?

If you want to move the goal posts you need to define the new location.

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The article clearly does not say the flood carved the canyon. How many articles can you supply that support what I say? Quite a few, I expect.
This is just playing semantic word games, that it wasn't the flood but the drainage of the flood waters -- they are still saying that without the flood the canyon would not be like it is. This is like saying that it wasn't the dog that broke the vase, it was the wagging tail of the dog that broke the vase.

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Sad part is: that was written by a layman, and it's still not what RAZD needs. Shoot, he may have the uplift part right. I wish I could remember it better.
No, the sad parts (two) are:

(1) this concept is invalidated by the topography north and south of the Grand Canyon:

[Linked Image]

and (2) that this "dam bursting" concept does describe how the scablands were formed:

http://www.nps.gov/iceagefloods/d.htm
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In recent geological history, portions of the United States have been the site of several massive flooding events caused by the abrupt drainage of glacial lakes. The most dramatic of these events are the Ice Age Floods that covered parts of Montana, Idaho, Washington, and Oregon. For a better understanding of the Floods, perhaps a good place to start is to first look at the geological and climatic changes that led up to these cataclysmic floods.

At the end of the last Ice Age, a finger of the Cordilleran ice sheet crept southward into the Idaho panhandle, forming a large ice dam that blocked the mouth of the Clark Fork River, creating a massive lake 2000 feet deep and containing more than 500 cubic miles of water. Glacial Lake Missoula stretched eastward for some 200 miles and contained more water than Lake Erie and Lake Ontario combined. When the highest of these ice dams failed, lake water burst through, shooting out at a rate 10 times the combined flow of all the rivers of the world.

This towering mass of water and ice literally shook the ground as it thundered toward the Pacific Ocean, stripping away hundreds of feet of soil and cutting deep canyons—”coulees”—into the underlying bedrock. With flood speeds approaching 65 miles per hour, the lake would have drained in as little as 48 hours.

Over time the Cordilleran ice sheet continued moving south and blocked the Clark Fork River again and again, recreating Glacial Lake Missoula. Over approximately 2,500 years, the lake, ice dam and flooding sequence was repeated dozens of times, leaving a lasting mark on the landscape.

Today we can see how the floods impacted the landscape. They carved out more than 50 cubic miles of earth, piled mountains of gravel 30 stories high, created giant ripple marks the height of three-story buildings, and scattered 200-ton boulders from the Rockies to the Willamette Valley. Grand Coulee, Dry Falls, Palouse Falls—all were created by these flood waters, as were the Missoula and Spokane ground-water resources, numerous wetlands and the fertile Willamette Valley and Quincy Basin.
And, as we have seen, the scablands do not look like the Grand Canyon. At all.

Note that there are no (not one) sinuous meander in all of the scablend flood flow formations. Note that there is evidence of water flowing around obstacles. There are also several areas of braided flow patterns.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Braided_river
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A braided river is one of a number of channel types and has a channel that consists of a network of small channels separated by small and often temporary islands called braid bars or, in British usage, aits or eyots. Braided streams occur in rivers with high slope and/or large sediment load (Schumm and Kahn 1972). Braided channels are also typical of environments that dramatically decrease channel depth, and consequently channel velocity, such as river deltas, alluvial fans and peneplains.

Braided rivers, as distinct from meandering rivers, occur when a threshold level of sediment load or slope is reached. Geologically speaking an increase in sediment load will over time increase the slope of the river, so these two conditions can be considered synonymous and consequently a variation of slope can model a variation in sediment load. A threshold slope was experimentally determined to be 0.016 (ft/ft) for a 0.15 CFS stream with poorly sorted coarse sand (Schumm and Kahn 1972). Any slope over this threshold created a braided stream, and under the threshold created a meandering stream or for very low slopes a straight channel.
So high flow (steep energy gradient) and lots of sediment creates braided rivers and low flow (flat energy gradient) and little sediment creates meandering rivers.

Enjoy.