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#37290 07/10/08 05:44 PM
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Bex
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I believe that it is murder because it is a growing baby, a human life. The human life starts at conception. If the Mother wishes to abort herself (suicide), that then becomes choice. However, does anybody have the "right" to murder the person growing inside their womb? we are talking about someone else's body here.

The child is not responsible for when or how it was conceived and should not be punished by the horrific act of abortion. If it is the Mother's right, how does that right suddenly stop when the child is born? Though we all know that partial birth abortions have indeed happened and still do. Basically the baby is murdered as it's being born. But how does one ok the act simply because it's covered by a womb?

At any stage of the pregnancy, the act of abortion (termination of human life) is murder. Plain and simple.

Most abortions are not done because the Mother is in danger of losing her own life. There are difficult and extreme cases out there. But they are done mostly out of inconvenience. Proponents of abortion will often use the more extreme cases to condone abortion and push the burden of 'guilt" on the pro lifers. E.g. "How dare you take away a woman's right" (notice they never mention or care about the rights of an innocent child). Or "what about rape" (which is worse I ask? Rape or murder of an innocent? Why kill the baby and not the rapist?). Or they'll ask "what about if the Mother's own life is in danger from going through with the pregnancy". etc etc. They will use extreme scenarios to justify the act of abortion, ignoring the fact most abortions are done daily and routinely by women who simply didn't want to get pregnant and wish to "terminate" the pregnancy. There are nice clinical sounding words for an atrocious act.

The use of the rarer and more extreme scenarios are the attempts at shifting the burden of guilt where it doesn't belong. Positive terms are also used for pro abortionists "pro-choice" and those who are sticking up for the baby's life "anti-choice". Or the use of clinical and clean sounding words "termination" "abortion" for an atrocious act of taking human life at its most vulnerable.

How is it a person can be charged for a double murder if they kill a pregnant woman? Yet, suddenly it's no longer murder but "termination" when someone in a white coat with plastic gloves does the job instead? Isn't it interesting how the baby suddenly becomes human in one case, but not in the other? Suddenly then the Mother's consent cancels out the baby's humanity and right to life.

The Mothers are not shown the realities of the growing child, or what takes place during the abortion, because it would "upset her" or possibly change her mind (which it has done in places where they have given the women the right to find out what REALLY happen through being fully informed). This was brought up on the creation/evolution forum. Pictures and an idea of the procedures that take place, plus many quotes by abortionists or "ex abortionists" etc that are DAMNING statements. The finance is involved for those that keep the business going and how angry they are at the organisations that offer free councilling and services to the distressed pregnant women, giving her every means to make an informed decision.

It seems odd to me that some people who claim to hate bloodshed and violence, condone the act of murdering and pulling apart a human baby at its most vulnerable stages of life. I have even heard a person compare the value of an unborn child to that of vermin. Sounds much like Hitler's view of the Jews!

The option of adoption is always there for parents out there who cannot even HAVE children! I do not judge individuals, because I do not know the circumstances, or the conscience, or their knowledge and awareness. I am simply judging the ACT of abortion and how horrific it is. There are many women who have regretted bitterly their decision to abort their child later in life and live in guilt. And as a Christian, I can pass on that Christ offers forgiveness to ALL of us. Everybody has sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. He can heal all wounds, even those of abortion.


Bex #37319 07/11/08 12:31 AM
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Very nicely said (as usual).

I would also add that a very small percentage of abortions are done under threatening circumstances, even though difficult circumstances do not justify the violent murder of another person, namely, a baby.

We had a saying while studying law, and that was that hard cases make bad law. In other words, you don't make laws for the purpose for serving only the most fringe possibilities of human experiences. Those are the ones that should be judged in court.

The real agenda behind abortion (at the highest levels) is population control of a special kind. The founder of Planned Parenthood is a very "special" person with a "unique" background and an agenda that people need to know about. I'm sure Bex will do a more eloquent job of explaining that than I.

Also, I have heard countless women say that they are so glad that they did not abort their baby. Once the baby was born, many or most of them exclaim that it was the best thing they ever did (having the baby).

If you're reading this forum post and in distress, feel free to contact someone here (there are many very nice people here) and they will put you in touch with someone who can get you the help you need.

For those in distress, there is help. Don't cause more distress by making decisions that you may regret later (many do). Seek help for yourself and your baby and you will find it.



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Russ #37592 07/18/08 03:21 PM
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AMEN! This is all totally scriptural. Thank you, Bex and Russ for addressing this serious matter, that has caused the USA to fall into deep sin.
We read in Isaiah 44:2 "Thus saith the LORD that made thee, and formed thee from the womb, which will help thee:...."
And again in Isaiah 44:24 "Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;..."
Yes, Bex, abortion is murder, to take a human life. May the Lord richly bless those that 'stand firm' on His word, the Bible. God forgive the USA!....then we can say, "God Bless America!" Blessings to all, Abishag <><


Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." [John 14:6]
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Thank you for the compliment Russ and for providing the means on here to get this information out. Thanks for your comments too Abishag and the wonderful biblical quotes. Was there not one quote also that mentioned God knitting us together in our Mother's womb? And you know something, when the angel Gabriel spoke to Mary, He did not say "Thou art with fetus", he said "thou art with child" (yet the child had only just been conceived).

Yes, it is hard to stomach "God bless America" when there are so many babies being murdered in the womb daily. My country is no exception and is one of the highest. I'm ashamed!

The founding "mother" of abortion - Margaret Sanger and her racist agenda. As I do not know enough about her in detail, I would like instead to submit what I think says it much better http://www.nrlc.org/news/2004/NRL07/margaret_sanger_and_planned_pare.htm

Quote
Margaret Sanger and Planned Parenthood:
The Eugenics Connection
By Angela Franks


Pro-lifers have frequently made the case that the Planned Parenthood Federation of America (PPFA), the nation's largest abortion provider, has a tainted past, but it can be difficult to find the hard information to bolster these claims. Let's examine a little of PPFA's history and the current activities of this organization in order to arm ourselves for the fight against this force of the culture of death. In this article, we'll focus on its founder's fascination with eugenics and whether Margaret Sanger can be fairly labeled a racist.

Margaret Sanger and Eugenics

Planned Parenthood dates its founding from 1916. To understand Planned Parenthood, one must understand the ideology of Margaret Sanger.

While Planned Parenthood adamantly insists otherwise, it is clear that Sanger (1879-1966) was a eugenicist. She believed that birth control served a great eugenic purpose by stopping those she described as the genetically "unfit" from reproducing.

In her 1920 book, Woman and the New Race, Sanger explicitly called her work "nothing more or less than the facilitation of the process of weeding out the unfit, of preventing the birth of defectives or those who will become defectives." As she wrote in The Birth Control Review, "the most urgent problem today is how to limit and discourage the overfertility of the mentally and physically defective."

Sanger did not rule out coercion if the "wrong" people had children. She wrote, "Possibly drastic and Spartan methods may be forced upon society if it continues complacently to encourage the chance and chaotic breeding that has resulted from our stupidly cruel sentimentalism." "Choice," indeed.

Planned Parenthood's History of Eugenics

Sanger was not the only eugenicist involved with Planned Parenthood. Alan Guttmacher, president of Planned Parenthood from 1962-1974, once told a Planned Parenthood gathering, "The mentally retarded and the mentally defective . . . insidiously are replacing the people of normal mentality."

Guttmacher, Sanger, and others in Planned Parenthood actively courted the involvement of eugenicists. In the 1920s, the "National Council" of her American Birth Control League had at least 23 persons involved at a prominent level in eugenics-nearly one-half the entire council!

The American Eugenic Society (AES) officially endorsed her group in 1932, and Sanger was a dues-paying member of the AES through the 1960s. Among those on her council was Lothrop Stoddard, a prominent racist who wrote The Rising Tide of Color Against White Supremacy and who also published eugenic articles in Sanger's magazine.

Was Margaret Sanger a Racist?

So, was Sanger also a racist, like Lothrop Stoddard? Sometimes pro-lifers quote editions of the magazine she founded, The Birth Control Review, in which officials from Nazi Germany were published. Others point to ominous-sounding quotes from her letters, including a letter written to Clarence J. Gamble, M.D., in which she wrote that "we don't want word to go out that we want to exterminate the Negro population. . . ."

But Sanger did not edit the Review during the time the Nazi articles appeared, and she frequently expressed disgust at German Fascism. The quote from the Gamble letter is also not definitive proof Sanger was a racist.

From the context, it appears as though she was (rather sloppily) explaining a misconception, not advocating racial cleansing. Moreover, she did not evince racist attitudes in other letters and speeches.

So it seems as though Sanger was a eugenicist, who wanted to restrict the "unfit" (the poor, those of supposedly lesser intelligence, or those with disabilties, etc.) from having children, but not a racist, because she did not consider members of other races "unfit" on account of their race.

So does she get off scot-free on the racism charge? Well, not quite. As we saw with the example of Lothrop Stoddard, Sanger worked with racists and did not make a move to check their racist thinking. More seriously, she also promoted a eugenic ideology that led in the end to the gas chambers. Once society starts judging who is "fit" and "unfit" and determining on that basis who should not reproduce, the inalienable value of every human being is quickly denied.

Implicit Eugenics

Of course, few if any current members of Planned Parenthood are likely to know the history just described or would agree with such bald eugenic claims. Nevertheless, the organization in fact advances the eugenic agenda, even if often unconsciously.

For example, Planned Parenthood has never ceased to target the poor and disabled, Sanger's favorite examples of the so-called "unfit." In the year 2000, almost 75% of PPFA clients had incomes at or below 150% of the poverty line. In 1997, PPFA's Plan of Action asserted that its "core clients" are "young women, low-income women, and women of color." Accordingly, although African-American women tend to be more pro-life than white women, they nonetheless have abortions at triple the rate of white women.

Similarly, those with disabilities feel the old eugenic bias of Planned Parenthood. A former employee of PPFA, who herself had disabilities, complained that her colleagues believed in the "need" to abort fetuses diagnosed with disabilities. "There was a feeling that they were bad babies," she told the New York Times. "There was a strong eugenics mentality that exhibited disdain, discomfort, and ignorance toward disabled babies."

That mentality is what drives the acceptance by PPFA of "search and destroy" abortions, in which amniocentesis is used to target unborn children who have disabilities. If you are an unborn baby near a Planned Parenthood clinic, any disability could be life-threatening.

That brings us back to where we began, to abortion. In 2002, PPFA performed 227,385 abortions, an increase of about 7% over 2001, during a time in which the total number of abortions in America decreased steadily. Planned Parenthood is the most successful abortion franchise in the country. A conservative estimate of the amount of revenue generated by these abortions would total over $79 million.

Pro-Lifers Say, "No Thanks"

So can pro-lifers fight such a behemoth? Yes, fortunately, through a lot of hard work. The Target department-store chain recently pledged to stop funding PPFA, in part because of pressure put on it by pro-life shareholders. City councils have often been successful in zoning out PPFA's clinics. States have passed laws to defund the organization and fought important political battles in this regard. Recently in Austin, Texas, PPFA could not find a contractor to build its new clinic, because a pro-life contractor organized a boycott.

Whatever weapon is used against Planned Parenthood, pro-lifers must not grow tired or discouraged. For we must be very clear in understanding this: we stand in the breach. The unborn, the disabled, the poor - - all depend on us for our action.

Angela Franks's book, Margaret Sanger's Eugenic Legacy: The Control of Female Fertility, will be published by McFarland in the fall. Visit www.mcfarlandpub.com for more information.



Isn't it ironic that those in favour of abortion have already been born? One wonders would their "pro abortion" stance change if they were faced with going back in time to the womb wink Particularly as the baby does indeed feel pain and the procedure itself would cause a grown man to tremble if he were faced with such a death.

Bex #37843 07/22/08 07:01 PM
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Blessings Everyone!
It is very important for the person who has already had an abortion to know that: WE SERVE A GOD OF LOVE!
If you (the one reading this), has already had an abortion, there is still hope for forgiveness of this sin. We serve a God of LOVE and forgiveness. (Please read today's 'post' under the Bible Heading/ A God of Love)
In the LORD's Word we read in 1 John 1:9 "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins, and purify (cleanse) us from all unrighteouness." There is no sin that can be committed that if confessed and repented of, the Lord will not forgive. Simply say a prayer of confession and repentance and ask that our Lord Jesus forgive you, and He DOES! You are forgiven! By the blood of Jesus all our sins are forgiven, just as if we've never sinned. (remember the thief on the cross). JESUS LOVES SINNERS! Matt.9:13 "I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." Abishag <><


Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." [John 14:6]
Joined: Jun 2008
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Blessings Everyone!
It is very important for the person who has already had an abortion to know that: WE SERVE A GOD OF LOVE!
If you (the one reading this), has already had an abortion, there is still hope for forgiveness of this sin. We serve a God of LOVE and forgiveness. (Please read today's 'post' under the Bible Heading/ A God of Love)
In the LORD's Word we read in 1 John 1:9 "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins, and purify (cleanse) us from all unrighteouness." There is no sin that can be committed that if confessed and repented of, the Lord will not forgive. Simply say a prayer of confession and repentance and ask that our Lord Jesus forgive you, and He DOES! You are forgiven! By the blood of Jesus all our sins are forgiven, just as if we've never sinned. (remember the thief on the cross). JESUS LOVES SINNERS! Matt.9:13 "I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." Abishag <>< bible


Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." [John 14:6]
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I agree....but the horror of what was commited would be hard to forgive yourself for. You would have to live with that. I just read the quotes Bex sent in and wanted to throw up. The medical field doing this is more liable than some mothers who don't fully realize what they are doing. They KNOW...


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Hello Jeanie!
Thank you for your 'post'...yes, it must be very hard on the person who had an abortion to forgive herself. As you read from my previous posts, I agree with Bex. Yet, we must remind ourselves of the scriptures in Romans: Chapter 3:10 "As it is written, there is none righteous, no not one.." Chapter 3:23 "For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God." Chapter 5:8 "But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." We are to be Jesus' hands and feet, until He returns to claim His church (believers). The Holy Spirit is the 'convicter of sins'. Please be blessed by the below poem by Annie Johnson Flint:
HE GIVETH MORE GRACE ~
He giveth more grace when the burdens grow greater,
He sendeth more strength when the labors increase;
To added affliction He addeth His mercy
To multiplied trials, His multiplied peace.

His love has no limit; His grace has no measure;
His power no boundary known unto men;
For out of His infinite riches in Jesus
He giveth and giveth and giveth again. <><
roseinbloomBlessings, Abishag


Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." [John 14:6]
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I agree with Bex, too, that abortion is wrong...period. Just saying I'm not the judge and jury. I don't think it is ever justified beyond the first trimester past where it could have a heart beat (like very early on)even in extreme cases, but can understand the black and whiteness of that with y'alls perspectives. I just think women really don't always fully understand what they're doing or are in distress sometimes and in their emotional states... That only God can judge. We can judge that its wrong, but only He can judge hearts. We shouldn't be their judge and jury... It shouldn't be legal. I can't believe it is. I was really almost physically ill reading through the accounts Bex copied of what abortionists do. My remedy is to use sex for what it is meant to be used for...to strengthen bonds of MARRIAGE and procreate.... My 19 year old just married as a virgin as was her spouse. I wasn't, technically, (was raped, remember as well as experimenting a bit at a young stupid age but had very minimal experience - pretty much was a virgin for all intents and purposes. My kids didn't date till they were 16) but knew my now husband 2.5 years before we got married and we did wait. He, though frustrated, appreciated that he knew he could trust me. My other 17 year old is a virgin...and intends to remain one till she marries. It can be done...

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Not meaning to judgmental on that issue either but in an ideal world... I'm not a prude either. Just think things are healthier that way all the way around.

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I just found this website on abortion. It has disturbing pictures actually showing babies who were aborted. Unbelievable..... I'm not sure I even comprehended before how widespread this is. I was horrified when I learned what partial birth abortion was, but didn't realize people were doing this past the beginning of pregnancy. I really does make you sick. On the following website they have some beautiful things, too, like a picture of a baby's hand coming out grasping the finger of a surgeon who was saving its life doing an intrauterine surgery for spina bifida. I saw something similar on an episode of House either Season 3 or 4, I think. I didn't know it really had happened.. I cried and cried during that episode. (Was given DVDs as a gift when I had neck surgery). Worth checking out.
http://bibleprobe.com/abortion.htm

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I agree with Bex, too, that abortion is wrong...period. Just saying I'm not the judge and jury. I don't think it is ever justified beyond the first trimester past where it could have a heart beat (like very early on)even in extreme cases, but can understand the black and whiteness of that with y'alls perspectives. I just think women really don't always fully understand what they're doing or are in distress sometimes and in their emotional states... That only God can judge. We can judge that its wrong, but only He can judge hearts. We shouldn't be their judge and jury... It shouldn't be legal. I can't believe it is. I was really almost physically ill reading through the accounts Bex copied of what abortionists do. My remedy is to use sex for what it is meant to be used for...to strengthen bonds of MARRIAGE and procreate.... My 19 year old just married as a virgin as was her spouse. I wasn't, technically, (was raped, remember as well as experimenting a bit at a young stupid age but had very minimal experience - pretty much was a virgin for all intents and purposes. My kids didn't date till they were 16) but knew my now husband 2.5 years before we got married and we did wait. He, though frustrated, appreciated that he knew he could trust me. My other 17 year old is a virgin...and intends to remain one till she marries. It can be done...


If the definition of a "prude" is respecting God's gift of sex as part of His intent/plan shared between husband and wife that God gave us all to enjoy in that context, then we should not be embarrassed/ashamed of the word at all. Sex is sacred, God created it. Just as you said, both for procreation and strengthening bonds and was intended to be pleasurable too.

It was not intended by God to be thrown around or used as recreational sport misused/abused etc. And Christ is very clear on the dangers of misusing this gift and what consequences there are. Thank goodness we have a patient and merciful God, but He is most definitely not mocked! Justice must also exist.

I believe it has been proven that the full information/genetic code is there at the very beginning of all life at conception! Therefore, I believe that it is wrong to remove that life at any stage. Just my view Jeanie and what I believe is contained in the bible also.

Nobody is judging a person's heart on here, just the act itself. And as Abishag has quoted - Romans: Chapter 3:10 "As it is written, there is none righteous, no not one.." Chapter 3:23 "For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God." So God help me if I put myself in position of judge on a person's eternal salvation or state of soul. But it is very tough to look at the act of abortion and not become angry and disgusted at such an "allowance". Surely this says more about us as a society, as much as the act itself?

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I just found this website on abortion. It has disturbing pictures actually showing babies who were aborted. Unbelievable..... I'm not sure I even comprehended before how widespread this is. I was horrified when I learned what partial birth abortion was, but didn't realize people were doing this past the beginning of pregnancy. I really does make you sick. On the following website they have some beautiful things, too, like a picture of a baby's hand coming out grasping the finger of a surgeon who was saving its life doing an intrauterine surgery for spina bifida. I saw something similar on an episode of House either Season 3 or 4, I think. I didn't know it really had happened.. I cried and cried during that episode. (Was given DVDs as a gift when I had neck surgery). Worth checking out.
http://bibleprobe.com/abortion.htm


Thanks so much for providing this link. It is horrific and I wonder if Russ would get this up just as it is? Pictures/comments and all. It deserves to be presented directly without censoring. This is very difficult to view, but I believe necessary.

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Yes - it's graphic. I am not good at posting or may've but wasn't sure if it was my place to do so. I agree, Bex. We need to understand what is happening. I feel for the women who have aborted their babies. I feel horrible if I'm impatient with my kids or do anything unbecoming of a mother. That is a sacred trust and there is more power in motherhood (and fatherhood!!) than any other calling in my opinion. I am happy I/we invested what we did with our girls. Now they go out and do their part to make the world a better place. That is what you are trying to do and it is right to have such strong feelings. I can barely stomach it... It breaks my heart. The medical people will pay for this eternally with their consciences and that, too, is sad but to do it for profit is unconscienable. Their souls must be very scarred. On a brighter note, though, as with the autistic kids Lynn has and all travesties as I've mentioned before, I think the Lord will heal and still give those babies all missed opportunities. They will ultimately be ok. As also in the cases of children who have been kidnapped and all manner of evil committed on them. There is a lot of suffering out there. A lot of sick people. Depraved people. I guess that is what you are talking about with regards to good. I think we all have it in us but sometimes evil wholly takes over.

We, too, will have whole perfect bodies in the resurrection. That is a comfort to me. I know I have a certain amount of influence over my cells and bodily functions (go Sunshine!) but we are mortals....

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Thanks so much for providing this link. It is horrific and I wonder if Russ would get this up just as it is? Pictures/comments and all.


I provided a link to the website you suggested in the "Welcome" post for this forum.

Thanks for the suggestion.


The Captian
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Hi Russ, I copied and pasted and put up all the pictures/comments from that link Jeanie gave on another thread, just as they are, so a person doesn't need to click on any link to see them, they are right here "in your face". I realise they are graphic, but if this can make a difference to a person's feelings on abortion for the good, it's worth it.

Cheers.

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Wow...OK, Nice work.


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Thanks Russ! But just a question, the second part to it for some reason has a really wide left margin. What could be the cause of that? I can't figure out what happened.


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