The Awesome Universe.....

With that on my mind....
I read this....

The Miracles That Occur Every Day Feel Natural....

The difference between a miracle and a natural event is only it's frequency."
In other words, a natural occurrence is merely a repeated miracle that we have become familiar with.
It is a phenomenon that consistently duplicates itself, following a pattern...
When it becomes a " stale miracle" we call it " natural."

The riseing of the sun every morning is no less miracles then was the splitting of the Red Sea as the Jewish people left Egypt..
For if the sea were to split every day at noon, we would call it a natural phenomenon.
And conversely, if the sun were to have risen once in world history, we would dub it a miracle...

Here is the articule in whole...
By Raleigh Resnick

The Miracles That Occur Every Day Feel Natural..

We treasure miracles. On a personal and communal level, we cherish thoses moments during which we feel some form of divine intervention..
in fact most of the holidays on the Jewish calendar celebrate a historical and miraculous occurance..
Weither it is the Israelite's extraordinary journey out of slavery in Egypt or the wonderous triumphant victory of a few Jewish Maccabee fighters..
over an oppressive Greek Empire--
a miracle certainly is a reason to celebrate..

Let us take a step back and analyze the phenomena we term a "miracle."
An interesting episode is recounted in the Talmud..
( a 60- volume compilation of Jewish thought and law)
that will " illuminate" the matter...
The first- century sage Rabbi Chanina was a renowned miracle worker.
Shortly after sunset one Friday evening, he noticed his daughter sobbing.
Upon asking her the reason for her distress, she explained that she had mistakeingly lit the Sabbath candles with vinegar instead of oil.
Rabbi Chanina comforted his daughter: " Do not be troubled, my dear.
The One who commanded oil to burn will command vinegar to burn.
" Needless to say, the candles did not go out..
In fact they burned untill the following night....
This story is so striking and unique because Chanina didn't respond by saying " Wanna see something amazing?
Watch this miracle!"
Rather, in the eyes of this holy sage, vinegar burning was no spectacular then oil burning..
Both phenomena were equally as godly. How so ?
The 17th century Rabbi Israel Baal Shem Tov once put it thus:
" The difference between a miracle and a natural event is only it's frequency."
In other words, a natural occurance is merely a repeated miracle that we have become familiar with.
It is a phenomenon that consistently duplicates itself, following a set pattern...
When it becomes a "stale miracle" we call it " natural".
The rising of the sun every morning is no less miraculous
than was the splitting of the Red Sea as the Jewish people
left Egypt..

For if the sea where to split every day at noon, we would call it a natural phenomenon.
And conversely, if the sun were to have risen once in world history, we would dub it a miracle..
Haveing this frame of mind can change our perspective on so
many of life's routines.
Instead of viewing our daily schedules as a state from which we
try to escape to a " fantasy" and " miraculous" world,
we begin to appreciate every nuance of the " natural "
and day-to-day life as a genuine gift and miracle ...

So if we cherish and pray for divine intervention..
If we truely cherish miracles, then we ought to value every moment of our lives--
for God is intimately involved in every nuance of our existence..
He's present at this very moment, even as you conclude reading this column..

By Raleigh Resnick

" The secret that allows spiders to cling to walls and ceilings has been revealed by Scientists , " says The Time of London.
A spider has eight feet.
At the end of every one is a clump of minute hairs, each of which is covered with even smaller hairs called setules.
The adhesive force on the tips of the spider's 624,000 setules is so strong that a spider can carry about 170 times
it's own body weight while clinging to a wall or a ceiling.

Useing a scanning electron microscope , researchers in Germany and Switzerland studied the foot of the jumping spider.
The findings , explains The Times , suggest that..
" It should be possible to use similar techniques to make new,
super - strong adhesives and glues " that " would not be affected by moisture . "

The research team leader , Professor Antonia Kesel , added:
" You could also imagine astronauts useing spacesuits that help them stick to the walls of a spacecraft."

Learning From A Whales Flippers..

What can aircraft designers learn from the humpback whale ?
A great deal it seems.
An animal humpback weighs about 30 tons-- as much as a loaded truck and has a relatively stiff body with large winglike flippers.

This 40- foot - long animal is remarkable agile under water.
For example , when feeding , a humpback may swim in upward spiraling circles beneath a prospective meal of crustaceans or fish ,
all the while blowing a stream of bubbles.
This bubble net , as small as five feet in diameter , corrals the creatures at the surface. The whale then snaps up it's tidy meal.
What particularly intriged researchers was how this stiff -bodied creature turns in what seem to be impossibly tight circles.

They discovered that the shape of the whales flippers holds the secret..The leading edge of it's flippers is not smooth ,
like an aircraft's wing,
but serrated , with a row of protruding bumps called tubercles.
As the whale slicies through the water, theses tubercles increase lift and reduce drag. How ?

The journal Natural History explains that tubercles make the water accelerates over the flipper in the organized rotating flow ,
even when the whale is rising at very steep angles.
If the flipper had a smooth leading edge,
the whale would be unable to make such tight rising turns because the water would churn and eddy behind the flipper and cease to lift.
What practical applications does this discovery promise ?

Aircraft wings based on the design would evidently need fewer wing flaps or other mechanical devices to alter airflow.
Such wings would be safer and easier to maintain.
Biomechanics expert John Long believes that someday soon
" we may see every single jetliner with bumps of humpback whale flippers. "

Mimicking Seagull's Wings

Of course, aircraft wings allready mimic the shape of birds ' wings.
However , engineers have recently taken this mimicry to new heights.
" Researchers at the University of Florida, " reports New Scientist,
" have built a prototype remote-controlled drone with a seagull's
ability to hover, dive and climb rapidly."

Seagulls perform their remarable aerobatic maneuvers by flexing their wings at the elbow and shoulder joints.
Copying this flexible wing design,
" the 24- inch prototype drone uses a small motor to control a series of metal rods that move the wings says the magazine.

Theses clever engineered wings enable the small aircraft to hover and dive between between tall buildings.
The U.S. Air Force is keen to develop such a highly maneuverable craft for use in searching for chemical or biological weapons in big cities.

The Wonder Of Instinctive Wisdom..
" Migration is probably the most awe- inspiring natural phenomenon."
---Collins Atlas Of Bird Migration...

Who planted that instinctive ability?
Some 3,500 years ago. God posed the following question to the righteous man Job:
" Is it owing to your understanding that the falcon soars up, that it spreads it's wings to the south wind?
Or is it at your order that an eagle flies upward and that it builds it's nest high up?

In his reply Job praised God for the amazing abilities of birds and other animals.. --- Job 39:26,27;42:2...

Superior to Instinct..
Humans, the crowing achievements of God's creation,
are not governed primarily by instinct..
Instead, we are free moral agents with a conscience and the capacity for love...
--- Genesis 1:27; 1 John 4:8....

As a result of all theses gifts, we can make just and moral decisions,that sometimes reflect extraordinary love and self-sacrifice...

The Power That Made The Body Heals The Body..
Wonderfull concepts for sure...
The amazing potential.... Involved...
In this process of life....

Design Shown In The Works Of God ?

Isaiah 40:12
Who has measured in His palm the waters and the heavens by a span
meted out;
and enclosed in the measure the dust of the earth,
and weighed in the balance the mountains in the scales ?

And this kind of sounds like Job here..
In the divine question...

13: Who has meted out the Spirit of Jehovah, or a man his counsel taught Him ?
14: With whom did he take counsel, and who trained Him and taught Him
in the path of justice; and taught Him knowledge,
and made known to Him the way of discerment ?

21: Have you not known ? Have you not heard ?
Was it not told to you from the beginning ?
Did you not discern from the foundations of the earth ?
22: He who sits on the circle of the earth,
even it's dwellers are like grasshoppers;
He who stretches the heavens like a curtain,
and spreads them like a tent to live in,
who give potentates into nothing.....

And.....
What does make us Human ???
And why do so many believe in a designer of the earth and heavens...
and a designer in nature as well....
And many do believe just that....

Design Shown In The Works Of God ?

The hydrological cycle... in Job 36:22

22: Behold, God is exalted in his power.. Who is a teacher like Him ?
27: For he draws up the drops of water; they distill rain into mist..
28: Which the clouds drip down , and drop upon men plentifully..
29: Also can any understand the spreading of the clouds,
the crashing of His canopy ?
30: Behold He spreads the light about Him ,
and he covers the bottom of the sea..
31: For He judges the people by them , He gives plenty of food..
32: He covers His hands with the lightning,
and commands it to strike it's mark;
33: it's thunder tells about Him; also the cattle, as to what is comeing.

And that is so true in the way...
Animals usually feel whats comeing first....
Like an earthquake is comeing and they will run and hide first..
Before anybody else senses it or feels it..
They will stop what they are doing and look up...
They seem to have a unique ability to feel and know theses things..
Interesting...
But we can also learn so much by observing what I see as..
Gods amazing creation.. The planets the heavens and nature...
It's a teacher for sure..
We learn so much by observing just that...
Awesome indeed....

Also besides Job....
Solomon described the hydrological cycle as well....
In... Ecclesiates 1:7...
But first the sun and the wind.. Before Rivers..

5: The sun also rises , and the sun goes hurrying to it's place;
it arises there again.
6:The wind goes toward the south, and turning around to the north;
the wind is going around and around, And the wind returns on it's circuits...
7: All the rivers are going to the sea, yet the sea is not full...
To the place where the rivers are going, there they are returning again....

But my favorite of Solomon... Of course...
Ecclesiates 1:4:
A generation passes away , and another generation comes,
but the earth stands forever....

As 2 Peter 3:13...
But according to His promise , we look for new heavens and a new earth,
in which righteousness dwells...

The earth is forever yet before that...
A cleaning 2 Peter : 3:12 -
Looking for and hastening the comeing of the Day of God,
through which ( the ) heavens haveing been set afire will
be dissolved ; and burning (the ) elements will melt...

And as Solomon said as generations pass away..
Ecclesiastes 1:2 - Vanity of vanities , says the Preacher,
vanities of vanities !
3: What is the profit to a man in all his labor which he labors
under the sun?

As 2 Peter 3:11 said : Then all theses being ( about ) to be dissolved,
what sort ought you to be in holy behavior and godliness...

It does fit the vanities of vanities theme..
The Bible is a very interesting ancient book for sure....
At least I think so..... So do many others as well....

Plus... There is much wisdom to be seen in nature as well..
Animals are smart and the flowers & tree's and plants know what to do..
It's just awesome , life is...
Like in the beginning there was information.. Wisdom..

Proverbs 3:19:
Jehovah founded the earth by wisdom;
He founded the heavens by understanding.
20: the depths were broken by His knowledge;
and the clouds dropped down the dew....

Air has weight..
Air is not weighless like many believed it to be..
The book of Job says... 28:23..
God knows it's way, and He knows it's place.
24: For He looks to the ends of the earth,
and sees under all the heavens;
25 : makeing a weight for the winds,
and measuring out the waters by measure..
26: When He made a decree for the rain,
and a way for the flash , the thunderclap,
27: then He saw it and declared it,
He prepared it and He also searched it out.
28: And to man He said, behold the fear of the Lord,
that it is wisdom !
And to turn from evil is understanding.

Plus...
Time, space and matter had a beginning..
The Bibles first word's are... In the beginning....
There is confirmation by Science that time had a beginning....

Plus.. God makes things grow....
Even though we can pour the water on the plant..
Seed the clouds. Who delivers the water to us....
For use.. Who makes it rain ????

1 Corinthians 3:5..
What then is Paul ?
And what (is) Apollos, but ministers through whom you believed, and to each as the Lord gave ?
6: I planted, Apollos watered, but God made to grow.
7: So as neither the (one) planting is anything,
nor the (one) watering, but God made to grow.
8: So the (one) planting and the (one) watering are one,
and each one will recieve ( his) own reward according to
(his) own labor.

---------
That is so true.. That we can only plant it and water it..
and according to how well we take care of it...
Our labor should have it's own reward...
But we didn't make it grow...
We didn't provide the information inside the plant....
For that to happen...

And also.. What about the laws of thermodynamics..
The first and second law of..

But first...
Can nature teach us ?
What does nature teach us ?
Can we learn from just observeing the world around us ?

In the book of Job it says:
Job 12:7..
But now please ask the animals and they will teach you;
and the birds of the heavens and they will tell you.
8: or speak to the earth and it will teach you;
and the fish of the sea will recount to you;
9: who of all thoses does not know that Jehovah's hand has done this ?
10: In whose hand is the soul of every liveing thing,
and the breath of all flesh of man?
11: Does the ear not try words ? And the mouth taste food for itself ?
12: With the aged is wisdom ,and understanding in the length of days
13: With Him is wisdom and strength, He has forethought and understanding.

Our Amazing Universe...
Allready organized but we observe and record...
And reorganize...
And take amazing pictures of it all..
---------------------
Help sought to organize the galazies..
Associated Press.

London-
Scientists need help sorting through an unusual digital photo album; pictures of about 1 million galaxies..
They are asking volunteers on the internet to help classify the galaxies as either elliptical or spiral and note, where possibile ,
In which direction they rotate..
It would be the largest galactic census ever compiled,
something scientists say would provide new insite into the structure of the universe..

We're into the golden era of astronomy," said Bob Nichol,
an astronomer at the University of Portsmouth in southern England.
" We have more data then we can assimilate,
and we need help.

Astronomers say computer programs have been unable to reliably
classify the star systems.
Without volunteers, researchers would need years to wade through the photographs,
which were taken automatically by a massive digital camera
mounted onto a telescope at the Apache Point Observatory near Sunspot,
N.M., Nichol said.

With 10,000 to 20,000 people working to classify the galaxies,
the process could take as little as a month.
Volunteers would sign onto the Web site,
complete a brief tutorial and pick through one galaxy after another..
The galaxies would be identified by several people to guard against error's and pranks , and scientists would rule any disputes..
---------------------------------------------------------

I would love to see thoses pictures..
Isn't the universe so majestic and beautifull..
I bet astronomers think so..
Thats why they probably enjoy what they do....

Can nature teach us ?
What does nature teach us ?
Can we learn from just observeing the world around us ?
Design Shown In The Works Of God ?
A continuation from above on..
What about the laws of thermodynamics..
The first and second law of...
The first being..
The law of conservation of energy indicates that matter and energy can neither be created nor destroyed ( just converted )
There are many bibical references to God's completion..
( that is, there was no more creation )

And the second commonly known as entropy, this law states that all things progress from a state of order to a state of disorder..
( within a closed system) without a purposeful input of energy..
Common illustrations; things decay , springs unwind, stars burn out, heat dissipates , and materials become mixed over time.
There are many references to the principle of entrophy in the Bible..

But first...

Man Copies the Creator's Design..

How is it that paper-thin electric lighbulbs can withstand strong pressure when pushed or screwed into a lightsocket ?
According to the book How in The World ?,
the answer lies mainly with in the bulbs shape,
which is based on the " eggshell principle."

Even though eggshells are very thin,
the eggs are not crushed by the weight of the female bird when she sits on the nest to incubate them.
This is because the shape of the egg provides structural strength that withstands the pressure.
( Thicker shells might not allow the check to peck it's way out. )
Copying the Creator's design, lightbulbs have a rounded profile so that when gripped ,
the force is " transmitted in all directions away from the point of contact by the curve of the glass."

Thus , as with the egg, excessive stress is not placed on any one point, and the bulb does not break.
Man has learned so much from studying creation !

God and Humankind....

Humans are unique..
The book of Genesis reveals that God personally formed the first man " of the dust of the ground ,
and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life
( Genesis 2:7 , New King James throughout )

And significantly , God created man and women ,
" in his own image "
( Genesis 1:27 )

Only humans were made in the image of God...

Thus from the beginning , the Bible shows that man and women were
designed to have the capacity to have a special relationship with God.
This capacity sets humans apart from the rest of creation...

From a purely physical stand point , human life is no different from that of animals..
( Ecclesiastes 3:19-20 )

Humans and animals have a transient biochemical existence..
But in humans there is a significant added dimensions..

God endowed human beings with minds..
That makes us unique almong all creatures...
That's why we need and yearn for a relationship with God...

" Junk " DNA ?

Many researchers approach the study of biology, genetics, and related fields from the standpoint of the theory of evolution.
Often , this view has lead them to false conclusions.

For example , early Darwinists classified certain organs ,
such as the appendix , the pituitary gland, and tonsils ,
as vestigial.
They consider them to be evolutionary leftovers because theses organs seemed no longer to have any function.
In time, however, the important role of theses organs came to light.
Evolutionists, therefore, had to discard their earlier views.

A similar development recently occured in the field of genetics..
Early research suggested that about 98 percent of the DNA in humans and other organisms had no function..
Hence, many were influenced by the theory of evolution assumed that this DNA was " evolutionary junk "-- a view that quickly became orthodox..
Once again , however,
an assumption rooted in Darwinism proved to be false..
Recently , scientists have discovered that " junk" DNA..
plays a vital role in the body by yielding special forms of RNA
( ribonucleic acid ) that are vital for life.

John S. Mattick , director of the Institute for Molecular Bioscience at the University of Queensland in Australia,
feels that the hasty acceptance of the " junk DNA theory is "
a classic story of orthodoxy derailing objective analysis of
the facts,
in this case for a quarter of a century.."
This failure , he adds,
" may well go down as one of the biggest mistakes in the history of molecular biology."

Is it not much wiser to view DNA as haveing an intelligent Designer ?
People with such a viewpoint realize...
that in time the reasons for puzzling aspects of God's handiwork..
usually come to light.
And instead of disillusioning them , such findings fill them with even greater awe...
{ Proverbs 1:7 } { Ecclesiastes 3:11 }

Yes.. The wisdom to be found in nature and the awesome universe..
And the laws of thermodynamics .. the many references to the
principle of entropy in the Bible... I'll get back to that later...

But first.. As...I just saw on TV recently that a high percentage of people..
I'm not sure what the source was because I didn't catch all of it..
Do believe in a designer , creator, God...
I do think they said about 80 percent and I remember thinking WOW..
I didn't know that....
But why not....
Life is such an amazing thing...
Also I read...
In the US, for example , a survey conducted by Newsweek magazine..
In 2005 found that 80 percent of people "
believe that God created the universe...
Not man- made god, but God- made man...
and also on watching the recent series on God and religion on CNN...
CNN also reported later as well that.
A high percentage of people do believe...
that God created the universe as well..
Alot of people do and they may not all tell another person they believe that..
Because of the reaction they may get from others because of
their beliefs in that...
But it's true that alot of people in this world as well as in the USA..... believe in just that.....
It's a fact that they just do..
So people that believe in that way...
What do we think ????
And why do they feel this way ???
Interesting subject...

So.. On the subject of...
What Motivates You To Serve God ?
What Motivates You To Believe In A Creator...
A Creation ???
I do believe that believeing in God is a Dedication And A
Freedom Of Choice...
" For such freedom Christ set us free."
{ Galatians 5:1 }
Is their a moral " Compass ??
Is their Guidence That Surpasses Instinct...
" If personal morality comes down to nothing more then the exercise of free choice ,
with no principles available for moral judgement of the quality of thoses choices ,
then law will inevitably be used to fill the resulting moral vacuum."
Dr Daniel Callahan

Is the earth God's gift to us ?
" The heavens are declaring the glory of God ;
and of the work of his hands the expanse is telling. "
{ Psalm 19:1 }

If God is in control of the universe..
Can God also take away that gift , change that gift , reform that gift..
As : look for new heavens and a new earth...
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth..
as written in 2 Peter 3:13 and Revelation 21:1.
Can we be seeing the beginning of any earth changes now ???

Can their be a design without a designer ?
In the awesome universe.. ' Something Is Missing -- What ?
Why we believe in a Creator..
Whom should you believe ?????
And does it Matter what you believe ?
See how you entire life is effected...
Interesting articule that reflects on just thoses questions..
For thoses who enjoy reading such interesting articules..
Enjoy.. This is for you....

Whom Should You Believe ?

" Of course , every house is constructed by someone , but he that
constructs all things is God. "--- Hebrews 3:4

Do you agree with the logic of this Bible writer ?
Mankind has expirenced some 2,000 years of scientific advancement
since that verse was penned.
Does anyone still think that the design evident in nature requires belief in a Designer , a Creator --- God ?

Even in industrialized countries many people would say yes..
In the United States , for example , a survey conducted by
Newsweek Magazine in 2005 found that 80 percent of people
" believe that God created the universe."

Is this belief due to a lack of education ?
Well , do any scientists believe in God ?
The science journel Nature reported in 1997 that almost 40 percent of biologists , physicists , and mathematicians,
surveyed believed in a God who not only exists but also listens to and answers prayers.

However , other scientists strongly disagree.
Dr . Herbert A. Hauptman , a Noble laureate ,
recently told a scientific conference that belief in the supernatural, expecially belief in God ,
is incompatable with good science.
" This kind of belief , "
he said is damaging to the well- being of the human race..

Even scientists who believe in God are reluctant to teach that the design evidence in plants and animals require a Designer.
Why ?

Identifying one reason , Douglas H. Erwin , a paleobiologist at the Smithsonian Institute , says:
" One of the rules of science is , no miracles allowed."

You can let others tell you what you are allowed to think and believe...
Or you may wish to investigate some of the evidence yourself
and reach your own conclusion..

As you read about recent discoveries of science presented
written about above and on the following pages , ask yourself ,
' Is it logical to conclude that there is a Creator ?

But first... Learning from the forces of nature...
Through observation of this amazing planet...
Learning from the gecko..
New ways to leviate objects discovered...
Comeing out in the August Journel of Physics..
Though they cannot leviate humans of yet...
Possible for small objects though..
What secrets nature can unfold....
Even a small gecko is unique...
In what it can do....

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/08/070806091137.htm

What Does Nature Teach ?

" Ask , please , the domestic animals, and they will instruct you; also the winged creatures of the heavens ,
and they will tell you.
Or show your concern to the earth , and it will instruct you;
and the fishes of the sea will declare it to you." -- Job 12:7, 8

In recent years scientists and engineers have, in a very literal way, allowed plants and animals to instruct them.
They are studying and mimicking the design features of various creatures- a field known as biomimetic--
in an effort to create new products and improve the performance of existing machines.

As you consider the following examples you have read about above, ask yourself,
' Who really deserves the credit for theses designs ?'

If the copy requires an intelligent designer , what about the original ?
Who is natures patent holder ?
How did nature come up with so many good ideas ?
Who deserves the credit ...

Is what's writen in the book of Job as relevant today as it was back then??
To us.. It seems so...

" Ask , please , the domestic animals, and they will instruct you; also the winged creatures of the heavens , and they will tell you.

Or show your concern to the earth , and it will instruct you;
and the fishes of the sea will declare it to you." -- Job 12:7,8

Copying the Gecko's Feet

Land animals also have much to teach.
For example ,
the small lizard known as a gecko has the ability to climb walls and cling upside down on ceilings.
Even in Bible times , this creature was known for this
amazing capability. { Proverbs 30:28 }

What is the secret of the gecko's ability to defy gravity?

The gecko's ability to stick even to the glass - smooth surfaces comes from the tiny hair - like structures,
called setae , that cover it's feet.
The feet do not excude glue.
Rather they exploit a minute molecular force.
The molecules on the two surfaces bond to one another
because of very week attractive forces known as van der Waals forces.
Normally gravity easily overpowers these forces , which is why you cannot climb a wall simply by placeing your hands flat against it.
However the gecko's tiny setae increase the surface area in contact with the wall.
Van der Waals forces, when mutiplyed across the thousands of setae on the gecko's feet , produce enough attraction to hold the tiny lizard's weight.

What use may this discovery have ?
Synthetic materials made to imitate the gecko's feet could be used as an alternative to Velcro-- another idea borrowed from nature.*
* Velcro is a hook- and- loop fastening system based on the design found in the seeds of the burdock plant *

The journel The Economist quotes one researcher as saying that a material made from " gecko tape "
could be particularly usefull "in medical applications where chemical adhesives cannot be used."

Who Deserves The Credit ?

Meanwhile ,
the National Aeronautics and Space Administration is developing a multilegged robot that walks like a scorpion ,
and engineers in Finland have allready developed a six-legged tractor that can climb over obstacles the way a giant insect would.

Other researchers have designed fabric with small flaps that imitate the way pinecones open and close.
A car manufacturer is developing a vehicle the imitates the surprising low-drag design of the boxfish.
And other researchers are probing the shock-absorbing properties of abalone shells, with the intention of makeing lighter , stronger body armor.

So many good idea have come from nature that researchers have
established a database that allready catalogs thousands of different biological systems.

Scientists can search their database to find "natural solutions to their design problems, " says The Economist,
The natural systems held in this database are Known as..
" biological patents."
Normally, a patient holder is the person or company that legally registers a new idea or machine.

Discussing this biological patent database,
The Economist says: " By calling biomimetic tricks "
biological patents,"
the researchers are just emphasising that nature is, in effect , the patent holder."

Who is natures patent holder ?
How did nature come up with all theses brillant ideas ?
Many researchers would attribute that seemingly ingenious design evident in nature to millions of years of evolutionary trail and error..
Other researchers , though , arrive at a different conclusion...
Microbiologist Michael Behe wrote in The New York Times in 2005:
" The strong appearance of design [ in nature ] allows a disarming simple argument: if it looks , walks and quacks like a duck ,
then, absent compelling evidence to the contrary ,
we have warrant to conclude it's a duck.."

His conclusion ?
" Design should not be overlooked because it's so obvious.."
Surely , the engineer who designs a safer, more efficent aircraft wing would deserve to recieve credit for his design.
Likewise, the inventor who devises a more versatile bandage--
or a more comfortable clothing material or a more efficent motor vehicle-- deserves credit for his or her design.
In fact , a maufacturer who copies someone else's design
but fails to acknowledge or credit the designer may be viewed as
a criminal...

Does it seem logical to you , then,
for highly trained researchers who crudely mimic systems in nature to solve difficult engineering problems..
to attribute the genius of devising the orginal idea to unintelligent evolution ?

If the copy requires an intellegent designer , what about the original ?
Really, who deserves more credit , the master artist or the student who imitates his technique ?

A Logical Conclusion but first...
Some Instinctively Wise Navigators..
Many creatures are " instinctively wise " in the way they find their way around planet Earth.
( Proverbs 30:24,25 )

Ant Traffic Control..
How do foraging ants find their way back to the nests ?
Researchers in the United Kingdom discovered that in addition to leaving scent markers ,
some ants use geometry to build trails that make finding home easy.
For example , pharaoh ants " lay trails radiating out from the
nest that fork at an angle of 50 to 60 degrees," says New Scientist.

What is remarkable about this pattern ?

When an ant is returning to the nest and reaches a fork in the trail,
it instinctively takes the path that deviates least, which inevitably leads home..

" The geometry of the forking path, " says the articule,
" optimises the flow of ants through the network of trails,
especially when ants are walking along them in two directions,
and minimises the amount of energy individuals waste by going
in the wrong direction. "

Bird Compasses..

Many birds navigate with pinpoint accuracy over long distances
and in all types of weather. How ?

Researchers have discovered that birds can sense the earths magnetic field.
However, the earth's " magnetic field lines vary from place to place and don't allways point toward true north,
" states the journel Science.

What prevents migrating birds from veering off course ?

Birds apparently calibrate their compass to the settling sun each evening.
Since the postion of the sunset changes with latitude and season,
researchers think that theses birds must be able to compensate for the changes by means of " a biological clock ,
that tells them the time of year," says Science.

Who programmed the ant with an understanding of geometry ?
Who provided birds with a compass, a biological clock , and a brain capable of interpreting the information theses instruments provide ?

Unintelligent evolution ?
Or an intelligent Creator ?

Did God Use Evolution to Create Life ?
Revelation 4:11
Lord , You are worthy to recieve the glory and the honor and the power, because You created all things ,
and through Your will they exist and were created.

What Is Evolution ?
One definition of " evolution " is:
" A process of change in a certain direction.
" However the term is used in several ways. For example,
it is used to describe big changes in inanimate things----
the development of the universe.
In addition , the term is used to describe small changes in liveing things- the way plants and animals adapt to their environment.
The word is most commonly used , though, to describe the theory that life arose from inaniment chemicals, formed into self-replicating cells,
and slowly developed into more complex creatures , with man being the most intelligent of it's productions.
This third notion is what is meant by the term " evolution"
as used in this articule.

Gosh, I thought this place was for discussing the Bible. I was wondering who'd made so many posts here so I thought I'd have a look.

It appears to have become one person's unchallenged blog about creationism.

Did you know there is a forum here for discussing these issues? Would you like to join us there and explain your views? You might like to have a read of the threads there first because they contain a lot of information about real science, backed up with evidence, links and illustrations. Why not start with "Evolution Theory Explains Diversity." There you will find definitions of evolution that real scientists use.

By the way,
is a separate theory called abiogenesis, which has its own thread.

If you'd rather not join us, then I will join you here if you like and we can chat about some of the claims you have made.

Cheers,
Linda.

Hi Linda Lou, ((( Smiles )))

How are you ?
So we are talking about theories now..
Everyone has there own opinion on it and what is science today
may be reinterpreted tommorrow..
And fraud and decepetion abounds and it can take decades before being exposed as so..
So I don't believe in the theory of real science..
I think it's a distraction when people don't agree on
the interpretations or the findings or think it may be outright fraud.. It leads me back to a subject I was searching about on
Autism and Mitochondrail dysfuction.. See I believe they are linked in many ways yet..
I was distracted on another board at that time by people who wanted to debate/ argue about something I didn't agree with.. And lots of others as well..
Nothing to do with the Bible as thats still all there..
I've been through this before..
So I only posted the M link I found within my post..
Well of course people broke off into two different camps on different things as even with all that..
people had their own expirences and way of seeing things ect..
There own data theories by others ect to follow..
so it ended up being a big waste of time for me..
And because of that distraction..
In that link I swear it said that one of the toxins that can cause mitochondrial dysfunction was heavy metals and it was written about it there..
Instead of copying and pasteing that because of the time distraction/disagreement that lead nowhere..
I went back to the link I posted and it was gone.. Not there..

I believe someone must of read the web and saw that under an autism thread and decided to remove that sentence..
That important sentence as I believe I saw it on the main Mitochondrail site and I am pretty positive it was there..
But gone now...
So..
There are lots of people who do not believe in evolution as written but do believe in creation as the answer to the creativity seen in nature ect.. on this planet..
You can believe what you want to believe and "who "
you want to believe..
That is your right.. This is my right..
Lots of people have already made up their minds anyway..
And I believe that in time..
The whole world will believe in the supernatural..
Weither Agnostic or Athestic..
And it will be up to you at that time to interperate it
anyway you want too..
As we are all given the gift of free will..
Time is on my side and untill then...
If you believe life arose from inaniment chemicals and cells..
I believe that God created all cells and chemicals anyway..
And anything found from atoms to quarks..
God created them first so naturally you will find them there..
So how they arose as you call it..
We will never agree on it and it will go around in circles..
And even if we did agree we will never agree on the information part. Or intelligence and anyway even if we did...
We will never agree on where that intelligence came from..
As my truth and what you see as truth is different..
This is my truth and not only mine..
Lots of people in the world see it like this..
Or dare to question..
But there's alot or people out there that do just that..
Read all the new theories comeing out and debate it...
What falls short but I'm not into that as...
We will never agree on the truth anyway...
I have shared many articules on many different subjects over
the years and this is nothing new...
I could lead you too a website where you could see just that..
That this has nothing to do with you...
Nobody is going to shake my belief or faith in God..
If thats what you feel you must do...
Your goal in life..
My goal is to minister to the sick...
To prepare people for whats to come which you don't believe
is going happen anyway but I do...
So we are very far apart in that train of thought...
But even with the naysayers and distractions...
It will all work out in the end anyway..
But we all have an inborn desire to live..
Where that inborn desire comes from we can debate argue
whatever you want to call it about...
But I believe God has planted eternity in mens hearts..
{ Ecclesiastes 3:11... }
But of course you would see it differently so there is where
we disagree.. I have not read all the threads on this board..
But I have read some and I have read about Russ beliefs on this and they pretty much fall in line with mine..
So it would be a waste of time for me to debate something I
don't agree with.. That we will never agree on..
I've seen this happen on boards before and people rarely change there minds anyway..
I believe in the enormity of human potential..
Thats what creation to me is all about..
All chemicals and cells come form God..
In the beginning was information..
The information is allready there.....
In the cells ...
So it just goes back to that and the interpertation being reinterprated or misinterprated or out right fraud by others..
We both see it as that..
Don't we..
You can be what I see as disruptive if you like..
Thats your choice..
But there are others here I'm sure that see it differently
then you do.. And see it like the others see it..
Who don't agree.. Of your interpretation or data of the world..
As you see it or " want " to see it...
Do what you must but I also have children to take care of too.. And it's summer...
Either you enjoy the articules and other facts of nature..
Or you don't..
What we see as or interpret as facts are quite different..
I'm sure of that...
It's a beautifull day out and God created the sun..
Whatever chemicals or formula God decided to use to do this.
He created them all so God can do what he wants..
And being summer I have only so much time to devote to what
I see as non fruitfull ..
Between cooking lunch, makeing supplements, finding a shirt
and getting a protease chewable and writting this post..
Do you care for disabled children????
I have helped people over the years and juggled time..
and people have thanked me for that imagining how hard that to be for me..
And there are people who will never except that mercury or
vaccinations are the cause of autism or any other illness we
see on this planet either..
And they have there own guru's/ scientists facts and data to support them.. As well as I have mine..
So there we go again..
We just agree to disagree as we will never agree on the source of ones facts..
Thats the way of the world at this time..
Until the changes come about..
Thats the world I live in..
As a parent of autistic children and one that does believe
in God..
I'm use to it...
The world being against me..
Thats just the way it is at this time...


You Take Care Linda Lou
Lynn

Hello Ladies!
Speaking of 'miracles' and of 'discussing the Bible', Consider this: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through Him all things were made; without Him nothing was made that has been made. In Him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it...He was in the world, and though the world was made through Him, the world did not recognize Him. He came to that which was His own, but His own did not receive Him. Yet to all who received Him, to those who believed in His name, he gave the right to become children of God--children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God......The Word became flesh and made His dwelling among us. We have seen His glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth...From the fullness of His grace we have all received one blessing after another. ..grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only who is at the Father's side, has made him known."
That seems pretty clear to me. "Without faith it is impossible to please God...Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God...Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."
Have a blessed Summertime. :rainbow:Abishag

I just want to say that even though I do not believe in the
Science on the other side of the vaccination issue or the
mercury issue as I do believe someday that will change but
then they will call it the environment instead of not totally true..
Like they have been doing for along time now..
But I won't really believe it... No matter what they say..
Nothing I can do about that..
Just keep on keeping on and hopeing someday that things will turn around..
With what I believe to be the real truth...
No matter how hard it gets..

Also I do not believe all the theories and whats called
science on the other side of the issue either on evolution..
Nothing goes unchallenged you will find disagreement on both subjects all over the web with just plain disagreement...
I'm not into censorship and do believe that people will make
up their own mind what they believe to be true or not..
As weither it comes to that issue or this one..
I allready have..
But if you have any disagreement...
Of course you can add it anywhere you like..
Nobody has to agree with you though...
People can agree to disagree on any subject
And sometimes thats where it stays..
As alot of people in this world believe in what I tryed to express to you above...

And there are billions of people in this world that do believe that God created the Universe and all people within..
There are billions of people in this world that believe in Genesis..
And within that population...
A high percentage don't believe in evolution because God said ..
Romans 1:22...
Professing to be wise they became foolish and changed the glory of the incorruptible God in [to ] a likeness of an image of corruptible man, and of birds,
and four-footed animals and creeping things.
Because of this, God gave them up to impurity in the lusts of
[ their ] hearts , their bodies to be dishonored among themselves ,
who changed the truth of God into the lie,
and worshiped and served the creature rather then the Creator,
who is blessed forever...

The interperations of the earth are just that in their eyes..
And as all thoses that stood strong in the midst of misinterpretation, mistakes or deception or downright fraud
in history.. And thoses that didn't.. Folded..
So you have your right to tell your truth as much as I have
a right to tell mine.. Weither you agree with me or not..
Or think I'm just ignorant..
Doesn't mean I have to agree with your definition of real scientist's..
I have explained my views in many ways..
You just don't accept them as your truth..
But thats O.K. because billions of other do..
That believe that God created the earth and all life within..
And all minerals and cells ect too...
So I have alot of company there I guess.
You have been a long time member and a well respected one
of this board too I see ..
And I'm sure lots of people like you...
And thats good.. I'm glad...
This has nothing to do with you...
This has to do with me and how I see the world...
And what I believe to be true.. As well as others..
Yet we all live in the same world don't we..
And see reality differently...
Though I do believe someday that we will all see it the same..
So until that day comes...
Theres this..

You Take Care Linda Lou..
Lynn

I just want to say I really enjoy and appreciate your meanderings here, Lynn.

You are a very well thought out thoughtful person. Your posts are very interesting, you have experienced much. I really love reading your posts.. your thoughts...

Have a blessed summertime you too, Abishag.

Hi Lynn, and thanks for the chat.



Science is a method by which we learn about the world around us. We make hypotheses based on available evidence, test those hypotheses, replicate those tests, and refine the hypotheses as necessary. It's a way for different people to study the same reality and come to the same conclusions based on that shared reality, though this process usually involves disagreement and debate (as it should) until this can be agreed upon with a reasonable degree of certainty. Is it the ONLY way to knowledge and wisdom? No. Does it eliminate the need for spirituality? No. But it does avoid the problems inherent in people choosing their own versions of reality to believe in. How do you verify those? If someone told me that the earth was flat and aliens were invading us, how would I choose whether or not to believe it unless I had some way of measuring those claims against an objective reality? I'd look at the available evidence and form the hypothesis that it was extremely unlikely.

In the creation and evolution forum, we're looking at evidence for both. So far the creationists have presented very little for their position, despite being sincerely encouraged to do so many times over. On the other hand, there is concrete evidence for evolution and an old earth which comes from the fossil record, the geological column, dating methods, and genetics. I'm not sure how these are "distractions." And no, scientists don't always agree, but that is how science works and how we learn. As new evidence comes to light, ideas are changed or superseded, as was the case when relativity added to Newtonian physics.

If you are discussing autism, mercury poisoning, or a number of other health subjects, you are getting into realms where interpretation of the evidence is much more of a key component. The interpretations are often based on studies which can be inherently flawed because they are based on faulty premises, or because they have been misinterpreted. I'm with you on the possible causes of autism which are generally not accepted by the medical community. I've also had my amalgams removed, have chelated, and make a lot of use of herbs and vitamins. But I do these things because I've seen evidence that they do work. What we are facing is a prevailing paradigm that diagnose-and-prescribe is the right way to health, and doctors are in thrall to the pharmaceutical industry. The evidence is actually there, but most people are simply unaware of it.

The fossil record, and different methods of dating rocks, are rather more straightforward and concrete. Fossils are sorted in the same order in strata all over the world. You find trilobites toward the bottom of the geological record, dinosaurs in layers well above those, and humans in layers well above those. never mixed. This is either a piece of evidence that evolution happens, or an indicator that God had some mysterious reason for making it appear that evolution happens. Why would he do this? Why would he also make the earth appear to be old, and dates from radiometric samples of rocks, tree rings, varves and ice cores to correlate? Is he trying to fool us somehow?

So yes, people have different ways of seeing things, but surely our ways of seeing things need to be based in reality in some way. I personally have a problem with ignoring the evidence above. I also have a problem with a science teacher at school teaching my child to ignore it or misinterpret it in order to push "intelligent design," which is what some people would like to happen. Again, this is why I am uncomfortable with people believing whatever they want to believe -- if they want it taught in schools as legitimate science, then they need to make a case for it being legitimate science. Again, no one in the creation-evolution forum has been able to do that, though I'm still waiting for someone to make a good stab at it.



What would be your definition of the supernatural?
Lots of people are religious, and many are theists. Almost half of scientists throughout the world are theists and believe that God created the universe.
I'm spiritual in my own way too. I just don't belong to a religion.
I wouldn't personally use the word "supernatural." I think that everything is natural.



Please link me to any info you have, I'd be interested.



Me too, most definitely. I also share your admiration for nature. It's just that I can see how evolution explains its diversity without any trouble. The thread I suggested you look at explains how; it was written for people who aren't sure how evolution is scientifically defined, or how it can account for the diversity of life and its adaptations to different environments.



Yes there are many theists in the world. A little over 2 billion are Christian. Last time I looked, the largest percentage of people in the world were Hindus.



Creationism is a largely American phenomenon. American Christians make up less than 10% of the world Christian population, and a little over half fall into the evangelical/fundamentalist category.

What's more, church attendance in the US is four times higher than in the UK, and the percedntage of people who take the Bible literally is five times higher. As I said, creationism is a largely American phenomenon. It has to be said that while my daughter learns about Noah's ark at school, does a nativity play and sings some Bible songs (which I'm fine with -- they learn about different religions there), at least I can rest easy that no one is going to try to teach her that the world is only 6000 years old or that evolution is nonsense.



With respect, I hope not. Variety is the spice of life as they say. I also believe that we can learn a lot from our differences with other people.

Cheers,
Linda.

Oh.. ((( Smiles )))

Thank You very much..
I'm glad you like my posts...
my shareing.....
And I know..
Not everybody will appreciate or enjoy reading or agree with
what I share with others..
Or what I believe to be true which millions billions of people
do share in this world as truth as well..
Everybody knows by now how I view the world..
And I've read alot of interesting articules and things over
the years... I've had alot to think about because of the expirences I've been through and also being unwell..
for so long because of the T and H and then also haveing
twins with autism and yet still going through all that...
and still retaining my faith and belief and even then through all that..
feeling a deeper connection because of that expirence..
And wanting to learn and grow even more in the word..
Of what I and others believe to be true..

And tonight I turned on TLN The Power Of Positive Television..
http://www.tln.com/BetterWorseKeeps/

And not this but another show was on and it was about being strong..
Even when one feels like there being run over by a truck..
There words not mine but..
But that God says He will strengthen you...
And somehow even through all I have been through..
I heve been weakend but somehow came out of it stronger..

2 Corinthians 12:9 (King James Version)

9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness.
Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

And then I think about 2 Chronicles
7 Be ye strong therefore, and let not your hands be weak: for your work shall be rewarded.

And the endurance and the patience of Job..
And the soul searching of Jonah...
Of what we perceive as being fair in life..
Has all carried me through...
Life can be so hard at times and but without this..
Without my faith and belief in God to carry me through it all..
And I know there are others that feel this way as well..
I just could not imagine a world without God in it..
I just wouldn't want to live in one..
And thats why I look so forward to that day of comfort..
Of no more pain or sickness or death because the former
things have passed away..

I just think of.. Isaiah 40:31..
Jehovah gives to the tired one power..

" Those who are hopeing in Jehovah will regain power.
They will mount up their wings like eagles "

This universe is so awesome indeed....
Just all the promises and Jesus sacrifice and words..
Are awesome.. How could I not appreciate that gift..
How could I not care..
And I still think of this...
No matter if someone else doesn't believe as I do..
Of what I can and I cannot do..

And I still believe ..
" And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and
with all your mind and with all your strength "
This is the First Commandment { Deut 6:4, 5 }
And I can't break God's Commandment no matter how much I may
like somebody to make them feel better..
Thats just asking to much from someone who truely believes in their faith..
Instead of looking for affirmation from someone who cannot give it in that form...
A person has to stop searching from without..
And start searching within...
When a person finds that strong faith or belief inside..
That's the security within themselves..
They stop searching for what they cannot get from another..
And live their lives and let go...
Without the battle but with more understanding of another..
And more tolerance for that person..
No matter if they don't like the way that person vote's or think's or believe's..
Under the live and let live concept..
Or love they neighbor as thyself concept...
As...
It is impossible for someone at war with God to find that peace..
To truely find that peace within..
A person does not look for afirmation from others..
For what they will never get..
But only what they can get...
From others....

And thats where I'm at..
Thank You So Much..
So many nice people here who have been very nice to me..
I truely Thank You for that... (((( Smiles ))))

Take Care
Lynn

It's hard to get through long periods of being ill and maintain some hope that there's maybe a reason, or at least a way through. I can understand why some people would use their religious beliefs as their strength. I think, though, that it's worth keeping in mind that many people can reconcile belief in God with scientific reality, it's not a matter of choosing one or the other.

I think "millions of billions" of people is a slight hyperbole as well, in light of the statistics in my post above. What about Hindus who believe that the world was created by Brahman, is that OK with you?

I enjoy living in a multicultural city which celebrates Diwali and Eid as well as Christmas and Easter. I enjoy learning about other religions and I'm glad my daughter can learn about them in school. What I find a bit disturbing is when adherents of any religion find it necessary to deny reality for some reason. And what I will vocally object to is someone trying to teach my daughter that the earth is young and that evolution didn't happen, when there is a great deal of evidence to the contrary. As I said, I'm glad I don't have to worry about it here.

For the record, I dislike the other extreme as well, advocated by people like Richard Dawkins, who insist that atheism is the only reality, science is the only way to that reality, and that religion is dangerous self-delusion. That isn't always the case, and the vast majority of the religious people I've known have been kind and peacable souls. Though I did work in a school with some fundamentalist Muslim students and found them to have been largely devoid of creativity and individual ideas; there was no "spark" in their eyes. Endless hours in the mosque repeating Koran verses seemed to have sucked it out of them.

If you'd like to have a dialogue about the issues raised in my previous post, feel free. Otherwise I'll have a second closer look at previous posts here and address some of the questions you yourself have asked.

Cheers,
Linda.

Yea me too.

There have been so many days when I couldn't manage... even the slightest little thing... and He picks me up and He says 'Let's do it' and it gets done, He does it, through me, with me, somehow. And He is such a pleasure to be with, such comfort, such strength, such wisdom, that I can forget all my troubles, my pain, my weakness, my failures and start again a brand new day, through Him, with Him, somehow.

I just could not imagine a world without God in it..
I just wouldn't want to live in one..

No, not ever.

Hello LindaLou,
You typed, "some people use their religious beliefs as their strength".... Excuse me, but it doesn't seem like you are reading the previous posts by Lynn accurately, nor the one above by SoSick, nor several others. SoSick has 'HIM' in her heart. You see, we do not have a 'religious beleif', we have a PERSON, JESUS CHRIST. May the Lord bless SoSick with His presence.
Also, LindaLou, if you'd at least search your heart and have a little compassion on Lynn, she did tell you that both of her children are home (summertime), one moderate autism and the other severe autism... and that alone takes most of her time.
I do not think this is the 'place' to address your 'beliefs' in answering any questions she may have typed.
Let's all have a little thoughtfulness in our hearts, and get back to 'our own corners' of this small world and not bicker on this website, where Russ has been so kind to allow our thoughts.
JESUS IS LORD....and one day, 'every knee shall bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord'.....then they all will be judged at the Judgement Seat of Christ. Yes, Lynn is right on! "One day we will all see it (HIM) the same".
Have a nice day everyone. Thank you Russ for putting up with us. You are most kind, indeed. Lynn is trying her best to help others on this website with several of her posts on another website, before they are deleted (bringing them over here). Let's see it as such...."HELPING OTHERS"..Thank you, Blessings, Abishag <><

I'm addressing what Lynn wrote about science and evolution in this particular thread. She asked a number of questions, which would seem to suggest that she's OK with having them answered by anyone who so desires. As far as I'm aware, under forum guidelines, we are all free to express our views here. I don't intend to get into arguments, but if there are misunderstandings about science or scientific definitions, I would like to set the record straight, if not for you and her then for others who will read here.

I'd also like to ask you a question. If I were misrepresenting creationism in my posts, and you decided to tell me so, would it then be OK for me to claim that you were doing nothing but heartlessly picking fights -- because I was ill, because I knew the truth anyway and you didn't despite anything you said, and because I just didn't have the time to talk about it with you (despite the fact that I'd already filled one whole area of the forum with my own lengthy posts)?

If you disagree with anything I say, you are welcome to chime in as long as you are willing to give reasons or evidence for your views, rather than religious lectures.

Cheers,
Linda.

I don't think, LindaLou, that Lynn is literally asking questions. She phrases her "meanderings" as SoSick called them that way, but she has her answers.

For the record, I, as you know, am not a pure "new world," as I think its called, creationist. I don't even classify myself as a creationist. I just believe God (along with Jesus Christ) created this earth however it happened and don't believe humans derived from bacteria. I think Adam was literally the first human roughly 6000 years ago but that the earth itself existed long before that. I do not personally feel that its right to teach evolution as "evolutionists" believe as absolute truth to kids either. I home schooled my girls during their more formative years partly because of that. But I haven't kept them in a bubble. I talked to them (my kids) about the threories cause I knew they'd run into them, but they are THEORIES. No one knows how it went down precisely and we won't till our creator tells us.... Some of us believe He HAS told us, but don't think He has filled most of us in on the fine details. I don't think any of us are ignoring facts or evidence. We simply don't accept all scientist's interpretations as accurate or absolute truth. I don't build my life, religion or beliefs around this the way y'all seem to either. But I agree with Lynn that we all have free will and can choose to believe whatever we want. Truth is truth, though. Sometimes truth can be stranger than fiction, too : ) Not sure why you feel the need to "prove" your evidence. Seems to me you are trying to convince yourself as much as anything. You are welcome to post on here, too, but no one on here is interested in debating I don't think or they would do it on that forum. Lynn was politely trying to tell you she was not up to it. Not sure where you are with mercury, but most of us are dealing with those issues.

Anyway - I'm going to take a nap. I'm sure you mean well LindaLou. I have nothing against you either. I'm intrigued by you UK folks, in fact, and curious about the culture there. I'd love to visit Europe! I can see that you are obviously intelligent and somewhat open minded, but perhaps so entrenched in the debate you're losing some perspetive. I totally agree that religion and "science" do not have to clash. I happen to think of religion as very scientific... But I don't check my religious beliefs against the science of the day.... Rather I do it the other way around.

SoSick has 'HIM' in her heart. You see, we do not have a 'religious beleif', we have a PERSON, JESUS CHRIST.

Nicely put Abishag!

That's quite clear. However, she has also given some scientific misinformation here, which as I said I would like to clear up for the record. I'm sure you all here would do the same if you found someone misrepresenting creationist views, as I mentioned in my previous post. I'm not after debate in this thread as such, but we've had scientists called liars here, and we've had some erroneous scientific information. Is it not OK for me to highlight these things? Presumably people here are interested in accuracy and truthfulness?



This is making the assumption that evolution is a religion like creationism is, something to be believed in. I've explained before that it holds about as much emotional or spirital impact for me as "believing in" gravity. What I see is that there is a great deal of evidence for it, simple enough. And science is not taken by scientists as absolute truth, because there should always be room for change when new evidence comes to light. Have creationists brought forward this new evidence, which they would like to overturn evolution? No. In the thread about the Grand Canyon and the flood in the creation/evolution forum, no creationist has presented a shred of scientific evidence that the Grand Canyon was carved in any way other than that accepted by geologists.



Theories are not just ideas. They have gone through the scientific process of "passing" many tests, which have not shown them to be invalid, which is why they still exist as theories. Again, gravity is a "theory," but do we ever say such a thing, as if we really think it might be possible for it to suddenly fail one day?

There is a lot of evidence for evolution and an old earth, if one is interested in learning about it, which is what should happen at school. And those who teach it need to first understand it. With all due respect, as I recall, you yourself were not aware that humans did not evolve from apes; in actuality, humans and apes have a common ancestor. There's also genetic evidence (as well as archaeological) that the human race is rather older than Adam, but we can go into that in the designated forum perhaps.



So your personal beliefs are the true ones? Again, what is your method for validating this? If people are free to construct their own ideas of reality, how do we know what is real? If someone tells me that the earth is flat and that we are being invaded by aliens, then how do I falsify that if there's no way to objectively measure or study reality, and science is just relegated to another set of someone's beliefs which we may or may not accept according to personal preference?

How would we learn anything about the world that way? How would we ever have moved past thinking that lightning was from the gods (or God) and that eclipses were signs that the gods (or God) were angry?



It's a logical approach to a discussion. If you have a difference of opinion with someone else, you could argue about who's right all night, and possibly the most charismatic person would win, whether they were actually correct or not. Or, if you really want to get at the truth, you can try backing your statements up with evidence. For example, I say that some basic evidence that evolution occurs is the sorting of the fossil record, various ways of dating the earth, and genetics, and I can go into detail about each. Anyone wishing to tell me I'm wrong needs to address this evidence, they need to show why their alternative model explains it better.



There's little room for doubt that the earth is old and that evolution occurs. As I said, I've learned a lot from debating with creationists and having to do research myself. I've learned a lot more science than I did in school, and I've learned a lot from scientists and people with scientific knowledge. I love learning and I love that eureka moment of discovering something new.



Mercury is no longer an issue with me, but I am still quite ill, and have been for 4 years. I am brain-fogged among other things, and debating helps me try to keep my mind sharp. We can choose not to talk about these things if they are distressing or if we're just too "out of it." I'm a patient person at peace with things as a rule, but since I've been ill I have to check my annoyance at times, I can be irritable.



I'm not sure how that would work, maybe you can enlighten me.



And this is a major reason why creationism is not science. Creationism takes one specific view and decides that all evidence must fit it, however awkward that evidence may be. Science looks at the evidence first and foremost, and formulates hypotheses based on that evidence. When scientists become dogmatic about a paradigm (as some do, for example in believing that "paranormal" phenomena are impossible), they stray from science. Skepticism, a necessary part of the scientific method, is nothing more than an open-minded focus on evidence.

Thanks for your polite posts by the way. It's nice to have a civil discussion in which I am not called names and not told that I'm a God-hating heathen. I've heard it all before and it's dull. It's also nice sometimes to put these differences aside and focus on health issues in the mercury forum, where most of us have more in common.

Hi LindaLou, I don't know how to do those cool little quote boxes... It's nice to see how you look at things which is perfectly logical and quite open minded. I get cranky sometimes myself. That goes with the territory with mercury. (Did you chelate yours out??)

I do understand how science works, but theories are still not proven...just not disproved so I don't see that as conclusive. I guess its taken as the best explanation we've got for the time being but I don't think we have all the pieces of the puzzle so I take what we don't understand on faith I guess you could say. You know I also do not doubt that this is an old world and that the materials used were already in existence and organized for our use. Matter is eternal.... (It just changes form). I don't doubt, either, that in order to have the materials we need there was a long term plan somehow. I just happen to believe it was all very deliberate. I am a believer, though, which in its very essence denotes that I "believe" in things I can't touch or see. I have been taught and I believe that Adam was the first man. And I know he did not come from apes. I can see believing that man could have evolved and there IS something to evolution...men and all creatures do adapt to their environments, etc, but believing in a God who has power over the elements who can heal as Jesus Christ did as well as resurrect a dead person - why would there be a need for such a thing? (That he would have to evolve us to exist as we are. We were created in His image). There is an explanation for the bones found... I just don't think it is our "ancestors." The original human was intelligent. (Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't see neanderthal as percieved as intelligent??) I do think we are more progressed (in some ways...) than in Old Testament times - but even technology as we know it - at least in the civilizations we are sure about has only progressed as it has in the last 100 years or so. By the way - I stated on an early post on the evolution site that I saw 10,000 B.C and wasn't impressed, but when I really got into it it was actually quite good! I loved their explanation for how pyramids were built with Mammoths! (Have you seen that?) I don't know if that is how they were built or not. But man is pretty darn creative. How about those temples in South America?? Anyway, it is all interesting. I would gladly discuss privately, anything you want to talk about in a less debating or public domain any time as well.

I've never thought you were a God hating heathen... I think, though, that some things really can't be seen other than through spiritual eyes. And I believe we have both a spirit and a body - the spirit being composed of a much finer matter but there... Death is the separation of the two and we will be recombined, so to speak, when we are all resurrected. With your stance, how do you see death???

Guys, Linda has an entire forum to debate this 24/7 if she wishes and is on there often. Obviously her radar was set off by the mention of creation/evolution on here and she's come on to "set us straight". I say to anybody who wishes to see the engagements in this type of debate, move onto the forum Linda speaks about and read there and check out the information presented on both sides of the ongoing argument. Pictures/videos are also presented. You can make up your own mind. I came on here to get away from the other forum and the ongoing circular arguments and nastiness and to enjoy reading and sometimes even sharing regarding the bible, God and the glory of His creation (which is biblical - Genesis).

Again Linda, you have the other forum and anybody is free to go there if they wish. Surely that is more than enough? I'm happy with God's word, and it seems the others here are also and the discussion is about the bible. Yes, creation/evolution do come into it when the foundation of the bible is brought up, because it is, afterall, based on Genesis (the first moments of creation).

Linda, you don't have to like it, but please give it a break. You have one creationist to batter on the creation/evolution forum who is holding his own wonderfully well against 3-4 evos at once. Good on CTD, I don't have the stomach for it these days, possibly because I too am too caught up in other things to spend much of my time debating continually, which always, without fail, winds up getting nasty.

I thank Lynn, Abishag and the others on here for their ongoing sharing of the faith and being so totally loyal to God's word, without trying to twist, water down, or play games with. You guys are an inspiration to me and I would not like to see that ruined on here personally. Keep up the wonderful work and God bless both of you and I have no doubts He will, particularly in these times where the real battle is spiritual.

Is it any wonder Christ said when He returns, will He find faith on earth? The bible speaks how in the last days will come scoffers. It is most definitely an ongoing battle and test and those that remain loyal, no matter how much they are battered from piller to post, will be rewarded by Christ Himself....

Linda seems to think that anybody who leans on their faith for strength, somehow invalidates it.....when instead, it confirms it. I find no strength or power in the ways of man, nor in their "mind power" books, or "new age" spirituality and never did. I found strength in Christ who has won out everytime. My occult involvement did terrible things to my life and I was unable to find any way out of it until I turned to Christ and turned to Him seriously (not half heartedly). Nothing else worked. He resolved and dissolved the problems very quickly. That is the power of God over the weak promises of men. One can also check out many miraculous healings done in the name of Christ, defying medical explanations....

I am proud to lean upon my faith in Christ for strength, for when I cease to believe that it is He who sustains Me, but rather "myself" (whom am nothing without the one who designed me) I suffer from a worse sickness than the one I suffer now and am living in a state of delusion.

Bex - LindaLou was respectful. She just sees the beginning differently. You're pretty head strong yourself. I got blasted myself regarding abortion which I don't even believe in. You don't have the last word here. With all due respect. Show it to others, too, though.

Abiogenesis:

The "scientific" theory that rocks and water turn into intelligent, highly-complex, self-aware, self-replicating, symmetrical machines over time.

Simply amazing.

An enlightening look at the superior evidence for creation...

Our Solor System

Hi Bex,



As you know, yes I talk there. I came here because I was browsing the forum complex and was wondering who'd made so many posts here. There were not just a few, but quite a number of claims about evolution and creation here.

I've asked this question several times now and I'll put it to you again. let's imagine the shoe was on the other foot. I'd started writing a thread in which I claimed that creationists are frauds, and I'd gone on to make some unsupported assertions about creationism which were not entirely factual. What's more, if a creationist attempted to talk to me about it, I'd tell them to leave me alone because they were picking fights and were just being nasty. It was my right to say anything I wanted, regardless of factual accuracy, and no one was welcome to question, challenge, or comment unless they were there to agree with me.

That's more or less the attitude I've heard from some creationists on this thread, regarding my own posts. Interesting. I've always thought that if a person felt secure in their beliefs, they wouldn't mind having those beliefs questioned.

I also said I never intended to open a big debate here. I do intend to make some comments about what was written here previously, and I have not done so yet because I have been researching some science first. I feel it's important to understand what I'm talking about before I talk about it.



If a creationist posts there, I usually answer. It does seem to be the case at the moment that there are three evolutionists on that forum, and one creationist. I'd rather be talking to more people, yes. I don't enjoy talking to just one opponent in a debate, when all that opponent is able to do is call people names and ignore evidence put forward while giving none of his own. Good on him for stubbornly persisting in those evasion tactics, eh? I think he came here in the first place looking for support from creationists, because the evolutionists on EvC had shown him time and time again that he was talking nonsense, and he thought he could get away from them here.

Still maintaining that the only pure faith is that which denies scientific evidence in favour of a literal interpretation of the Bible? Or do I misunderstand you? What about the theistic evolutionists in the world?

Finally, I get the impression that some people are not reading what I've written here. It's difficult to have a proper discussion when all the points I've brought up so far seem to have disappeared into the ether as far as anyone is concerned. But back to the point -- I'll have a look at previoous posts here, make some comments, and presumably have done with it for now. Anyone who would like to talk evolution and creationism is welcome to join the forum.

Jeanie, if you click on FAQ on the menu, and then "What UBBCode can I use in my posts?", you will see how you create quote boxes and other things too.

I haven't seen "10,000 b.c." -- is it a film? Doesn't sound like a documentary to me, especially with mammoths building pyramids -- erm, good Hollywood maybe. Sure you'rw welcome to PM me if you want.



I'm not sure what you're asking here to be honest. Evolution is about the processes of life changing, not about how it first began, and not about what happens after it dies. The former is addressed by the theory of abiogenesis, and the latter is considered more of a religious or metaphysical issue. Though there is research being done on things such as near-death experiences.

My personal views about death have changed over time. But that isn't something I can back up with scientific evidence, and I'm as likely to be right or wrong as anyone else. What I can say for certain is that the fundamentalists here will disapprove and will be sure that I'm going to hell while they are saved in the rapture, so I think I'd prefer to discuss such things somewhere else where a variety of different open-minded opinions is on offer.

Russ, it looks like we need to refresh your memory. YOU started an abiogenesis thread in the creationism-evolution forum and had a discussion there with RAZD.



As has been pointed out to you, you are leaving out the intermediate steps in order to make a strawman argument, your hallmark "rocks turn into humans" claim. Quite a lot of information has been posted in that forum about abiogenesis. I wonder why you have come over here and have made your original claims all over again, with no evidence of having digested what has been said elsewhere.

As I said, I had not intended to bring the debate over here. Why don't you make your claims about abiogenesis in the designated thread, put your creationist-solar system vid in an appropriate thread there too, and I will watch it. Who is it, Hovind again?

Post #37819


Sure, we can learn a lot from nature. Why is this necessarily indicative of "design"?

Life has had billions of years to evolve, with natural selection working on it, so that organisms have become very well-adapted to their environments. When those environments have changed and life has not been able to adapt, it has gone exinct. The thread called "Evolution explains diversity" in the creationism-evolution forum goes into the evidence for this in more detail.

Why, in your opinion, is the first law of thermodynamics indicative of design?

What point are you making about the second law of thermodynamics? Remember that it refers to a closed system. Life is not a closed system. The sun provides more than enough energy to drive things. If a mature tomato plant can have more usable energy than the seed it grew from, why should anyone expect that the next generation of tomatoes can't have more usable energy still? Not only is life irrelevant to the 2nd law, but order from disorder is common in nonliving systems, too. Snowflakes, sand dunes, tornadoes, stalactites, graded river beds, and lightning are just a few examples of order coming from disorder in nature; none require an intelligent programme to achieve that order.

Post #37835


This comment is based on the mistaken notion that "vestigial" means "useless." The term "vestigial" is used in the sense of an organ no longer or not being used as it is in most other animals. Examples from biology include leg bones in snakes, eye remnants in blind cave fish, extra toe bones in horses, wing stubs on flightless birds and insects, and molars in vampire bats. Whether these organs have functions is irrelevant. They obviously do not have the function that we expect from such parts in other animals.

Another common (and frequently misunderstood) example, one which Lynn has given, is the appendix. In humans, the appendix has little apparent function, although it now appears that it may store some immune cells. However, the analogous organ in many other species does have obvious function. Moreover, the human appendix is positively disadvantageous in the sense that it is subject to nasty infections that can be fatal. The appendix is a vestigial organ since it does not serve a function like the homologous organs in other animals. So, the question becomes, why do humans have an appendix? (Or why does the human appendix not function like the homologous organ in other animals?) Evolution, the idea that we all have common ancestors, provides a meaningful answer. Creationism does not.



Again, some misunderstanding here. It is true that a large part of the human genome, and that of most genomes, appears to have no function. Scientists believe that over time, functions will be discovered for some of this DNA, as has been stated above. (Keep in mind that "junk DNA" refers to many different kinds of DNA, so saying that one use has been found for one kind does not mean that this applies to all junk DNA.) Anyone who wants to learn about what "junk DNA" really is and what we really know about it can have a look at Wikipedia.

What's more difficult to demonstrate is why a "designer" would design even a single strand of DNA that appears to have no useful function. This is not a problem for evolution, because it appears that at least some "junk DNA" has been maintained and copied over many generations even though it no longer has a useful function in the organism (though it may once have done). The energy involved in replicating this DNA is much less than that expended in moving a muscle, so it is possible that there is no mechanism for organisms with a large amount of "junk DNA" to be de-selected. My own feeling is that yes, some (though not all) of this DNA does have functions which are currently poorly, or not at all, understood.

Post #37837


I think you'll find that creationists comprise a rather smaller proportion than this, and this is also just looking at the US. Christian creationism is largely a US phenomenon.

Post #37840


This individual is trying to explain the scientific method. It goes something like this. We look at the available evidence, formulate a hypothesis based on that evidence, test the hypothesis, replicate the tests, and adjust the hypothesis as necessary. After a hypothesis has undergone many rigorous tests by different experts, and it has so far not been invalidated, it becomes a theory. If new evidence comes to light which contradicts the theory, the theory is altered or thrown out.

Science is one important way of learning how the world works. How would we learn about how the world works if we attribute the unexplained to miracles? As soon as we ascribe something to a miracle, there ends our investigation and our questioning. God did it. As I've asked before, how would we have learned what things like lightning and eclipses really are, if we'd carried on believing they were messages sent by the gods (or God)?

Post #37860


Evolution is not random for the reason that natural selection works on it, the end result being organisms which are well adapted to their environments.

Also, many theists believe that evolution is God's way of creating life. People can be thanking God for the wonders of nature and accept evolution at the same time.

Post #37863 -- definitions of evolution

From Evolution theory explains diversity:


Mechanisms by which evolution occurs include mutation and natural selection, gene flow, and genetic drift.

It's worth being precise about terms under discussion.

Cheers,
Linda.

Excuse me Jeanie. I am headstrong yes, but I am respectful as much as I can be given the topic and emotion involved. Consider also others behaviours on here too which can be a cause of defensiveness and strong attitudes.

Look, just because I don't mince words, don't misinterpret my posts as being "disrespectful". You say you got "blasted" by me? Do you feel abortion does not deserve a blast and a very strong one too? I made it clear to you it was not personal on that thread. I was aiming my posts at the act of abortion....Should I make apologies if someone is offended because my words maybe strong? The apology should be towards the unborn child.

I do NOT feel I should have the last word on here, I'm just as human as anybody however. Most people are pretty headstrong when it comes to their beliefs. So perhaps you ought to take this into account also? I seem to recall you got a real pounding on the creation/evolution forum, which was personal too.....so come on now, let's consider that a few of us have had the same on that forum. Is it any wonder that defensiveness and attitude can creep in?

At any rate, you're welcome to believe what you wish.

The reason there are not more creationists there is because of the ongoing circular arguments, unpleasant behaviours, false accusations, putting words in people's mouths and also the time aspect (for me). it's like doing assignments sometimes on there. It has constantly provoked me to anger and eventually I found myself becoming insulting and constantly on the defense on there (which I feel was often provoked) and I realised it was time to go.

If CTD wishes to continue on there? all power to him. One example is here already, you accuse him of calling people names, when he has not done so. He has responded no more offensively than the rest of you. And he has often been provoked with arrogant toned posts and veiled insults (and sometimes not so veiled) which none of you ever admit to doing, but you constantly accuse others.




To believe in a creator being who designed the universe does not conflict with science and why should it? I see the evidence of design all through nature....and I believe science is the manner to which God gives man to come to further knowledge (of His design also). Just because there are "theistic evolutionists" Linda, does not make evolution a fact and nor does it mean that I ought to believe in it, because there are some Christians who do. What you believe to be factual and what I believe to be factual are obviously polar opposites and what I see as pointing to design, you see as pointing to evolution. That's fine, I'm not here to force you to believe my view at all. I'm here to enjoy sharing with others about the bible and part of that is geneis (creation).



Not really Linda, I'm trying to avoid engaging in ongoing debates, but failing miserably right now as I type this. I feel that it's been done to death on the other forum and it's about to start here all over again. Others are free to engage you and bring up each point and debate it if they want. It's unfortunate, but as Jeanie said, yes I am headstrong. That's my nature, wish I could change it and be a little more like Lynn, Abishag and Russ. How I would love to be able to treat everybody with respect and a gentle spirit and sometimes I try, but inevitably, it flies out the window.

Thanks for the invitation to join the other forum, and perhaps more will. I hope some creationists who have as much passion as you do, will do so. It's a pity CTD is doing the battling on his own. I feel personally that I have let him down in a way, but I put my health and other aspects of my life first and certainly the evolution/creation forum can too easily take over and put a knot in my gut at the sametime. No thanks.

Bex, how do you define "personal" here? I don't even know Jeanie. I was debating with the ideas she presented in the other forum. In my own opinion, getting personal in such a setting means making inappropriate remarks to someone, usually insults, because one is getting emotional. You won't notice that happening to evolutionists there very often, though none of us are 100% immune.

As far as I'm concerned, I've added pertinent info here about the definition of the theory of evolution, the second law of thermodynamics, vestigial organs, and "junk" DNA, so that they are represented for what they really are as defined by scientists. If I were writing factual inaccuracies myself anywhere, I hope someone would let me know.

Bex, you try debating with someone to whom you offer well-researched scientific links, and all you get in return is simply "I don't believe it," "evodates are nonsense," "it's all lies," etc, with no explanation as to why. I'm not sure why you think these are admirable debate tactics but as you said, you're welcome to your own opinion.

CTD isn't as blatantly insulting as some others I've come across, but his attitude is consistently derisive and distasteful. It's "Talk Deceptions" (you'll notice that no evolutionists are using pet names for creationists or their websites) and evo this, evo that, along with the usual response to awkward evidence that we're all simply liars. I hope that whatever I say in response to people who post here, they don't feel personally insulted by me. I sometimes find levels of scientific ignorance on which claims are based frustrating, as well as continual evasive techniques, but I try to deal gracefully.

Linda, I was offended by the manner in which jeanie was treated on that forum when she began to make the first posts. Perhaps more by the "mob" response and an arrogance that was clearly picked up and not just by me either. It was offputting to say the least.

No, nobody is immune and the ongoing emotional responses by Linear (putting words in people's mouths etc etc), same as Pwcca ( ongoing sarcasm and false/unfair accusations towards others, whilst completely oblivious to their own). If that's not emotional? I don't know what is. I can understand how you may fail to see this, considering they're on your side of the fence. I guess that happens.

Linda, you've offered your depiction of evolution and have offered invitation to engage on the other forum right? So why keep going on about it? Yes I can see you are clearly frustrated by some "lack" of responses you feel you are receiving (not receiving), which is why I suggested finding a forum that has heavier traffic and more passionate involvement? Sorry, just a suggestion. But you are clearly unhappy here. I wish I could engage you again like I used to, but I feel I've lost my edge/passion for it and don't have the resilience and determination and as I said, it always reverts to insults and nobody is ever convinced by the other anyway.

Why am I still talking here? I guess because there's conversation at the moment. Maybe some others will pick up some points in the other forum. And I might have to carry through with my promise to Russ to sit through 10 minutes of creationist claims about the solar system.

I do hope that all discussions there can simply focus on the evidence, or lack thereof. I'd really like to meet a creationist, anywhere, who is willing to try to rebut scientific evidence with their own. If anything was going to make me lose interest, it's probably what is happening there now: only one creationist to talk with most of the time, who only seems to be there to stick a finger up, because he appears to be out of other options.

Things don't revert to insults with me. That tends to happen along with the above -- when someone feels they have no other options. Something along the lines of, "Yeah whatever, but you're just dumb anyway/you're going to hell/I know the truth no matter what you say." But definitely, if debating upsets you, then don't do it. There's certainly no obligation.

Do I think I'm going to convince anyone? Maybe the best I can hope for is that they at least become willing to examine their own position a little more deeply. And I enjoy learning from it and keeping my brain working. I read people's links and I research my own.

What it boils down to on this thread, for me, is a desire to accurately represent science here. If I see inaccuracies anywhere, I like to correct them if it can be done tactfully (and if there seems to be a need). Comes from years of teaching maybe, though I also just have a strong passion for getting at truth.

Wrong. Yes they do Linda and honesty is a good place to start, because veiled insults and arrogance has been commonplace. Please stop misrepresenting creationists on here by ongoing attempts at discrediting people who have long since moved on from wishing to engage in circular arguments by referring to us as "evasive" or "having no other options". Which you do constantly, forgetting how much was presented in past posts already. Whether you agree with it, or feel it was enough, or directly answered everything is another story. That is not my problem, that is up to the readers to decide for themslves and I very much doubt they require your commentary to convince them of your bias and often unfair evaluations. More ongoing attempts at discrediting the opposition. Surely if you felt this was so, why would you need to do this?

Would you please discontinue putting false words in mouths also? I don't recall calling someone dumb or telling them they are going to hell and you have done this before on the creation/evolution thread with Russ and others and you were caught out there too, too easily forgetting your own condescending and sometimes snide comments on Christianity.

I ask you please to quote me where I said these things? If so, I'd be ashamed of myself and I would also like to know what was said by the opposition also, because I'm well aware of the provocations that are ommitted by you guys continaully.

So no Linda, you're definitely a party to provoking others, you just do it so much more "eloquently", but the outcome is the same.

I have a lover named Jesus and he does provide for my every need.

Whether or not anyone else believes me I really don't give a flying frypan of fodder.

No no Bex, you've never said those things, and I wasn't claiming that you had.

I know there was one point in time when I was less than courteous about Hovind, and since then I've tried to avoid making those kinds of comments about creationist leaders, no matter how tempting. I would not talk that way directly to anyone on the forum, ever.

If I say something that upsets you, Bex, or if you think I'm being unfair to someone, please let me know, and be specific about your reasons for this. Maybe we should stop escalating the vague comments about arrogant attitudes etc -- anyone who disagrees with one's point of view and backs their own views up with evidence can seem arrogant. It may seem arrogant to a creationist that I came to this thread and addressed comments that Lynn made. Which is why I asked about what people here would do if I were misrepresenting creationism to my heart's content and then complaining that I'd been unfairly treated if a creationist had tried to tell me so.

At any rate, I don't feel we're getting far with this discussion. If anyone else wants to talk here about relevant issues, OK, otherwise . . . this is a Bible thread, so by all means, talk about the Bible and you can rest assured I won't be hanging about.

Bex, blasted was a strong word. I agree with what you posted about abortion in general...how can anyone not? After you sent in all your quotes I found a website where they show the aborted babies.... I knew partial birth aborion has happened which was why I would never vote for Hillary cause she believed it was a right - glad she's out.... but honestly had no idea it was so prevalant or that abortions could be done throughout a whole pregnancy now. Call me stupid....really had no idea all that was going on. I've been a little busy focusing on raising my OWN babies over the years. And you know what? I stood up for that. I was socializing with my husbands very rich friend who had dinner with Hillary and Bill cause he had done a favor for Bill's brother. (Can't make myself call him President). We actually went to the rehearsal for the Democratic convention back when Bill and Bush were running when our friend was in charge of the music for it. (Got to meet lots of famous folk - big whoop). Anyway - in their house - I told his our friend, no, we were not democrats. When asked later during dinner why while the wife of our friend rudely had on the tv with Hillary on there cheering her on (can you say Hollywood?) I said I couldn't vote for her cause I didn't agree with partial birth abortion. She winced and said she didn't like it either. (She grew up in TN in the south - very conservative but she got caught up in the Hollywood scene in my opinion and was proud to be hanging out with the president...who wouldn't be?) So ignorant or not - I stand up for what I believe.

I guess what I felt was personal was actually more subtle.... You obviously have a strong personality as do I and many of us on here. You have strong beliefs as do I and most of us on here. But we're ALL good people. And we aren't all going to agree on all things even concerning religious issues. I just think LindaLou who is, apparently, at least an old world creationist from what I gather has a right to talk on here.

On that note I am secure enough in what I believe and know to be true that the debate on the other side doesn't bother me. I took how you've acted toward me much more personally than how they did. I felt judged....

Hello All!
'just stopping by to see if Lynn's 'intentions' have been cleared up. Thank you Jeanie, Bex, and Russ.....
Now, I wonder from reading another sight several weeks ago: Which is worse having a 'tongue in cheek' accusation, or having 'a foot in the mouth'.???
If I read this correctly, this is suppose to be a Bible discussion forum . Some people prefer to debate than to share. I am a 'follower of the Lord Jesus Chirst'. It seems the term 'Christianity has taken on too many forms, other than to 'follow a Person'.
Thank you Jeanie, for explaining the intents of Lynn. She is not 'asking' anybody anything....she is simply stating her 'information, Biblical prophecy, science collections, etc, etc. Let's PLEASE 'GET BACK TO THE WORD OF GOD HERE. Thank you! Blessings, Abishag <><

Bex, I'm over it and sorry....I have PMS.

hmm.. I am not so good. maybe that's why He has to stick so close, give me so much attention.


But I do know I am not so good, in fact I am acutely aware of it. And I enjoy learning He has taught me so much.. I still struggle with it though, everyday.. I have to, I need the attention... everyday..

I'm just acknowledging that I've read your post Jeanie, but would like to respect Abishag/Lynn' and try and get back to the topic. Thanks for expressing this though. Sorry you felt judged, that was not my intention.

As for "all of us being good people", hmmmm, like sosick I have the same opinion. We are definitely not "good" if one compares themselves with Christ. We are flawed and tend towards rebellion and sin. Christ thankfully gave the remedy and only He can make us "good" in the eyes of the Father because each of us sin everyday. There are serious sins being committed daily amongst the members of our human race, some are unspeakable. So no, we are definitely not all good.

No worries Jeanie. You had every right to say something to me with or without PMS anyway. I am aware I express myself too harshly at times and that my annoyance towards the opposition is hardly a secret. It doesn't hurt me to consider the impact of that a bit more. Christ did say to love our enemies afterall. Ouch, He doesn't make it easy!

I am secure in my beliefs, but my passion and frustration still shows no matter what it is I'm standing up for. Most people are this way. It's a rare person who isn't!

Thanks Bex. I learned a lot about abortion. It is truly horrifying. There are a lot of women getting duped I fear but the idea they are doing it so far into the pregnancy is truly disturbing.

All of us on here are dealing with mercury (that I know of... many at least) and that causes some crankiness in one form or another. There were a lot of heated discussions on the forums for that I've been on. This one is nice cause its a rounded one and more an outlet to talk...

(And yet also learn and help each other...) But more supportive I guess.

I'm referring to folks on this site being good. Its a nice gathering. I do try and see good in all, though. All of us screw up at one time or another... We all have the light of Christ (consciences) but its a dark world and sometimes hard to find the light...We can lose track of what is right or wrong. If its the media teaching you...that is a real problem! I see a lot of lost kids nowdays....

I don't want to be judgmental of someone's heart, at least, cause only the Lord can judge that. Sometimes those who seem least deserving of love need it the most, too. The Lord himself hung out with Publicans and sinners.... I think that can only be done to a point before it can tear you down...but there is so much trauma out there. We all need love. I guess I'm also big on loving "the least of these." (Not calling LindaLou that, but she has been nice to me and I think she sincerely wants to understand - just very scientific.. I just don't put that much stock into it...(Sorry LindaLou if you read this, but no secret). At school when I'm there I'm always drawn to the ones who feel left out...who are struggling in some way.

Did someone compare themselves with Jesus? (Above statement you made?) I want to be like Him. I think as Christians that is out goal... He is our example. We are his followers...

I think we all have a spark of divinity in us... I certainly don't equate myself to Him, though. He is the "Only Begotten" Son of God. I think we are literally related as spirits, though, to God!!

Its good you stand up for what is right. You taught me a thing or two. But I'm not the enemy... And frankly I think any talk about Christianity is "Biblical." Before LindaLou came no one else was even posting other than Lynn, so there wasn't exactly a "discussion" on the Bible to even get back to. But thanks for your last response. I appreciate it. I'm letting it go.

There are a lot of good people here, yet, none of us are good.

Like Jeanie, I like to see the best in people, yet, I do not have a blind eye towards the selfishness and rebellion that we all hide somewhere. That's why knowing the value of what Christ did begins with knowing ourselves and understanding how we all have our share of "badness".

I have searched myself enough to know that I have a never-ending streak of selfishness. It takes a long time to find out just how deep that streak goes, but this process of knowing ourselves is part of our transformation. For the Bible says that a spiritual man purifies himself, and so we continue to exercise this process and uncover our own shortcomings so we can become better people and so we can understand how forgiving God is, for He knew all these bad things about us all along.

So seeing that I am continually discovering my own darkness while knowing that I have, by grace, become a temple of the Holy Spirit, I can safely say...

"If you find anything good in me, it's not me."

That is good! I totally agree. We all need to continually repent and be open to the need to do that. None of us are perfect.

Well.. This is definitely an interesting thread ..
Not the way I intended it to be ..
But if not the good then seeing the nice..
I see alot of nice people above that seems to understand
me or at least trys to and thats nice..
I really do appreciate that...
Well... (((( Smiles ))))
There is the Parable of the Good Samaritan and I see alot of that above.. Thats good right??
There is some doing good in this world today...
But yet nobody is good good as there is no perfect people
and we all do fall short..
In Gods eyes yet...
As God see's the perfection for us in the world to come..
Our potential of getting there..
And only the striveing and trying in this world right now..
In this world's fallen state as it is...
There is that and transformation and I'm only part of a group here..
And in the world to come if God allows me the precious gift
that God offers to us..
And I look so forward to that day myself..
As this world is so messed up in the state that it is in now..

And I think of what Jesus said about being good..
But I love the children part first so...

Mark:10:13..
And they brought children to Him , that He might touch them,
But the disciples rebucked the (ones) bringing (them). But seeing Jesus was indignant.
And He said to them , Permit the children to come to Me,
and do not stop them, For such is the Kingdom of God.
Truely I say to you, Whoever does not recieve the Kingdom of God as a child may not never enter into it.
And haveing taken them in ( His ) arms , laying hands on them, He blessed them..

------------------
And when I think of this I think of how not permitting and stopping someone who wants to come to Jesus..
Or has the oppertunity to come to Jesus..
By blocking there way to that door ....
That they may never enter in..
And Jesus was very angry and upset at that..
If I am describing the word correctly..
But also with such love..

-----------------------------

And He haveing gone out into (the) way running up and
kneeling down to Him, one questioned Him, Good Teacher,
what shall I do that I may inherit ever-lasting life?
But Jesus said to him, Why do you call Me good?
No one is good except One, God..
You know the commandments.
Do not commit adultery, do not commit murder, do not steal,
do not bear false witness, do not defraud, honor you mother
and father ( Ex 20:12-16)
And answering , he said to Him, Teacher I observed all theses from my youth. And looking at him, Jesus loved him , and said to him,
One (thing) is lacking to you. Go, sell what things you have , and give to the poor. And you will have treasure in Heaven.
And come follow me takeing up the cross. But being sad
at the word, he went away grieving, for he had many possesions..
-------
Thats a hard road to follow and we are not good good..
But with the question .. And who is able to be saved?
But looking at them , Jesus said, From men (it is) impossible,
but not from God, For all things are possible from God..

And I'm so glad about that too as who is able stand on that day??.. Revelations 6:17...

What a weekend it's been I'm tired I just need sleep..
Thats how I know I'm only so human..
I tire out..

Take Care Everybody
Lynn

O.K.. ((( Smiles )))

Jeanie commented on something above about the building of ancient building in history like lifting hugh massive boulders..
Some so huge that a normal human couldn't lift..
And as this thread is so long now I'm not going to search for
it but I remember reading it..
O.K.. This is my take on it..
I think lots of thoses cites were built or helped built..
By someone with super human strength.. Super big..
And who do I believe that to be..

The are written about in history from their definition at
the time or their personal expirence.. They were huge..
Not mentally hugh but super huge super strength.
Born to Raph /Rephaim..
They are written about in Deuteronomy 3..
About the giants their bedstead of iron..
nine cubits long and four cubits broad as the size of a man..
Would that be like 18 feet tall???

Or in Number 13:33..
All the people saw it .. they were men of stature..
and they saw the giants and they were like grasshoopers
in their eye.. they were big..
You will read about them more in scripture it says they
built lots of cities..
And did commerce with the people around them in thoses days..
There are records of cities being built by theses monsters..
And it's carved in stone..
When the most high gave each nation it's heritage..
It's from the world before..
What do you think the flood was about and God in scripture wanted them destroyed again...
Thats what they were trying to do back then..
Though God promised not to send another flood to do it like
that again..
God is a consuming fire now..
It will but just like the days of Noah were..
And how was that??
They were takeing and giving in marriage..
To who???
Another attack on humans..
And God will stop it once again...
I got this catalgue in the mail..
And their was a picture on it of ancient mysteries and the
great pyramid..
And I read it and talked about ancient knowledge and theses flying machines.. Spaceflight..
They will be back again you can just about bet on it..
Scripture say's so...
Are you prepared for the supernatural..
Natural yes but not human..
Super..
I believe they will be back in full force again..
It's not over till it's over...
The past will be the future once again...
What will be will be..
No matter what I say about it..

But thats who I believe helped built or helped build
thoses monuments for the future days to come..
Oh well...

Take Care
Lynn

I agree, there were giants.

There are ancient human bones in different areas of the world that are of gigantic proportions (compared to us anyway). Unfortunately when the Smithsonian institute gets word of it, they are usually "removed" and not seen again. One doesn't have to think too hard to figure out why this would be....

Some have been thankfully preserved, whether in reality and/or on film. I think a thigh bone, jaw bone and a thumb bone (or toe bone) have been preserved in a creation museum. Absolutely huge. The jawbone is of such immensity, that you could fit a modern human sized head inside of it. It is fully human by the way, NOT some half ape like creature and says alot about our past, that even the bible has already told us.

yes, there were giants in those days.