Does anybody know if the composite from Ivoclar Vivadent named Helioprogress has passed any fibroblast cellular reactivity test like for example DiamondLite form DRM Res. Labs? In oder words, is it cytotoxic or not?
Another thing regarding this composite, I have to replace my old fillings and looking at the current composites available I have seen that DiamondLite is X-Ray detectable according to its MSDS sheets while Helioprogress is completely metal free as the off-white version does not appear on the X-ray.
All these composites contains Bis-GMA materials, and these seem to be unavoidable in composites. Does anybody know if there is any composite without Bis-GMAs?
cut paste my reply from the other thread to here in case you miss it there, andrew...
Any info you can find or that that gets referred back to you by dentists would be very much appreciated Here, at least by myself, Andrew. I have a big big problem with plastics, especially the 2 part catalyzed resins such as the urethanes and epoxies, and of course the radioactive character of the x-ray detectable materials does not thrill me either. Essentially for now I have stopped searching due to the fact that in the past, having searched and found what I thought were suitable materials, I was then unable to locate dentists willing to use them. I also found dentists very unwilling to share or elaborate on specifics in composite materials, I got the impression either they did not know at all, or were simply unwilling to provide info because they couldn't guarantee their response was fully correct, so to avoid issues there.
One important things I know about the characters of the Bis-GMA resins is that they are not fully resistant to saliva even though they appear water resistant, but they actually decompose ever so slowly in your mouth. Which is exactly why crowns often fall off after only several years in someone's mouth, the resin adhesives, especially, become decrepit
From the search I did last year, finding newer materials that don't contain these volatile plastics is very difficult. If you find anything please let me know and thanks in advance!
Here is a brief description of dental Bis-GMA's for anyone who doesn't know what that refers to.
Interesting to note also... my then 10 year old daughter had a dental checkup at which the dentist sealed her teeth, telling me afterwards of course because I did not request that... but within a month or two she developed pimples and light acne rashes on her face, previously a flawless complexion, which she has been working very hard to get rid of the past couple years... almost gone but not quite... 5 years or so is the lifepsan of the sealant I believe.
HI Andrew, as you would know, there are undesirables in every dental material. No matter what you avoid, there is always something else to replace it that you may have issues with.
It is very difficult. You would be wise to have a serum test done. This has been mentioned already on this website. I put up all the information for somebody else to have this done. This will let you know whether it's showing an adverse response to your immune system or not. Everybody is different. I don't know if these tests are 100% accurate, or not, but they are "one" avenue you can go down and from there, you can always do further testing and find which materiasl come out best on most/all tests.
I know a dentist who uses the helio composite "heliomolar" and he feels so far it's been the least reactive on his patients and he is also trained in toxicity. He uses only two main materials - cerec porcelain, or heliomolar. I have Heliobond as my bonding agent, but I have cerec porcelain for the filling material. Because it's more-a-less permanent.
On my own serum test form "Helioprogress" has turned out "suitable". As have the other Helio products. all turned out suitable. But that may not mean it's ok for you. I am only giving you an example. It is said that it contains fluoride....but I had other materials that apparently did too "tetric ceram" and I had those replaced with something else and found it no better....if anything "worse". So I can't really tell you what is best.
You'll find a lot of contradiction out there too. I was going to get Heliomolar composites myself, until I decided to go to a local dentist here instead and pay extra for ceramics....Though your question is about helioprogress, I assume they are similar. They are made by the same company too.
Another thing you can do is get a hardened sample of the stuff and put it in your mouth for about a couple of hours or so eachday and see if you get any oral reaction or anything else that alarms you. Though bear in mind, it's more likely to react to this becaue it won't be bonded right into the tooth itself..... But it is one way of trying. And getting a sample and taking it to someone who uses an EAV (voll) testing. They can test that way too, aside from getting a serum test for yourself done.
I think they all have toxicity and it's just a matter of finding one that is probably least reactive to you personally. Also, with a mercury toxic body, you are far more likely to react to things than if you were not mercury toxic, so that's another issue and is why after amalgam removal, you really do need to be active in removing the mercury out of you. Also after amalgam removal many people get much worse due to the increased exposure of mercury from removals and the later stages of detox you go through when the body starts to dump the storage of mercury. Feels like re-poisoning and sometimes feels even worse than how you felt with amalgams. It's different for everybody.
Thank you for the information. If the composite is visible on X-ray for sure there is metal in it, otherwise it would not be detectable. Regarding Bis-GMA, I cannot find any direct composite that does not contain it. Do you know what DiamondLite from DRM Res. Labs contains for it to be X-ray detectable? Cadmium or Mercury? It just states FDA approved pigments on the MSDS sheet.
Do you know if any dentist willing to use DiamondLite as a composite?
reading the MSDS files from Helioprogress, you can see it does not mention containing any fluoride, while Tetra Ceram and others from Ivoclar Vivadent do. Where did you find out that also Helioprogress does? the website is www.ivoclarvivadent.com and you can see all the MSDS files there.
Diamondlite in its MSDS file mention that it tested for cytoxicity and was negative to fibroblast cellular reactivity test, even tough it mentions that it is X-ray detectable and that therefore contains metals. IS THERE SUCH A TEST AVAILABLE FOR EITHER HELIOPROGRESS or other composites or ceramics from ivoclar Vivadent?
A word about Ceramics, as far I know all ceramics to be such, are aluminum-based and even though it is not an heavy metal but more a light metal, it is still very toxic and proven to accumulate in the breasts and prostate gland and cause all sort of problems
Do you know what DiamondLite from DRM Res. Labs contains for it to be X-ray detectable? Cadmium or Mercury? It just states FDA approved pigments on the MSDS sheet.
I was told by a biological dentist, and another regular dentist, that dental composite manufacturers use a very small amount of radiactive something (thallium is a good search) to make the composite show up on x-ray. Neither cadmium or mercury are FDA approved pigments, if you meant to imply that. If they were manufacturers would use them in cherrios and candy.
Probably something along the lines of red#2 or so as those types of pigments are labeled. Dyes. Hopefully vegetable based, some animal based.
However, dental materials are not really subject to FDA approval because they are not a food. which is why mercury can be found in amalgam, cadmium in dentures, and titianium and nickel in implant prosthesis devices, etc.
Yes, Thallium is among them. I want to show u the MSDS files relevant to DiamondLite so u see what they mention about FDA approvals... As far I I know he FDA gets involved in everything now in the US, not only things that have to do with foodstuff and drugs...
Not that I know of... FDA means Food and Drug Administration and is relegated to that area specifically.
Just link the MSDS. I am quite familiar with them, I worked keeping a company in compliance with OSHA - MSDS for about a year in VA several years back. I know chemicals/materials etc quite well.
They may list an item as FDA approved within their specifications but that dios not mean they were required to have the product FDA approved, they simply chose to list that probably because it is an incentive for the aware sector of the public to use their products.
I didn't say that helioprogress contains fluoride, I would have no idea. I know that heliomolar apparently does. They are made by the same company, but they are still two different materials, similar name, possibly "similar" stuff contained, but they would have their differences or they would not have a different name. And perhaps fluoride (or lack of) is one of those differences between these two.
Apparently, there is NO such thing as a metal free dental material. I have spoken with Walter Clifford who runs the serum testing lab in the US> he is VERY familiar with dental materials and much of what is contained in them and said all without exception contain metals. The key is to find the material that is least reactive with your immune system. You could email them and ask Walter about this and whatever materials you'd like to ask him about, I'm sure he could give you a pretty accurate run down. Please check out this link and you can find the contact details of this lab and hopefully get hold of Walter personally - http://herballure.com/ubbthreads/sh...&sb=5&o=&fpart=1
As far as I know, the new style cerec porecelain is not quite like the old style porcelain. Any aluminium in it is apparently tightly bonded inside a crystalised base (something like that, not sure of exact wording) and does not come out. Cerec is supposed to be one of the most biocompatible materials to date and many biologic dentists are taking this onboard. It does nt tend to leach out its components and also lasts almost a lifetime. Some say cerec does not even contain aluminium, not sure what to believe. Apparently some contain zirconium and some contain aluminium oxide. aluminium is also contained in cheese, baking powder, even a salad. NOt sure how much more significant well bonded ceramics would be in comparison. Andy Cutler seems to think you'd get far more from your intake of foods and other materials, than you would with ceramics. Here is a link that I found interesting: http://www.vident.com/general.php?id_pages=205
I showed to be ok on my serum test with cerec porcelain, I hope it's true. I just paid out alot of money for them (thousands). So I really cannot afford to go through another removal, both financially OR further trauma to the tooth itself.
Also some of the problems people have with porcelains can be the old style ones due to the metal bases attached. Direct metals! So sometimes they can blame the porcelain, when it may not be that. Nothing worse than different direct metals in the same mouth creating the galvanic response.
Hi Bex, sorry I was away on a business trip and got not time to be on the forum. I communicated with DRM Labs from CT and they r the manufacturers of DiamondLite, DiamondBond and the whole Diamond family, and they gave me convincing evidence about their products, so I guess I will go with it. I just have to find a dentist willing to use it... if u want I can share it with u...
I am sure tetra Ceram is also a Biocompatible material as it's quite famous among biological dentists...
