Thanks for the post Russ and I must admit brain fog is a bit bad today, but I understand the meaning of the post. I can verify the changing of individuals behaviour by respect by the work I did. I spent years working in schools with children, who for a number of reasons, behaved in a very challenging way. They saw punishments as more of a challenge and fight and so the behaviour was almost fed. Along with another colleague we found that to change this mode of behaviour was to understand each individuals problems, build up confidence and self-esteem and show them that by changing and following a different path, they can take responsibility for changing their own lives. So this way can work, as long as there are still some rules and guidelines that have to be followed at the same time. Proof of this came to me when I left a school with a high ratio of ' problem' children and they had taken so much time and trouble to make me cards and individual letters of sincere thanks. Tracy