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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,315
Master Elite Member
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Genetics was unknown in Haeckel's time. Distraction. Nothing in the rest of the paragraph deals with genetics. Embryos do have similarities to each other, and human embryos do exhibit tails and pharyngeal arches (marks which look like, but are not, gill slits). And so do the fish, according to your pals.There are numerous other examples in which an organism's evolutionary history is represented temporarily in its development. Early in development, mammalian embryos temporarily have pharyngeal pouches, which are morphologically indistinguishable from aquatic vertebrate gill pouches (Gilbert 1997, pp. 380, 382). This evolutionary relic reflects the fact that mammalian ancestors were once aquatic gill-breathing vertebrates. The pharyngeal pouches of modern fish embryos eventually become perforated to form gills. Häckel would be proud. If you were genuinely curious about what science knows now, you would have seen the following paragraph at the end of the article I linked you to: Evolutionary theory is not founded on Haeckel's observations or theories. Haeckel's work was discredited in the 19 th century, and has not been relevant to biology since the rediscovery of Mendel's laws of genetics. That the biogenetic law is false has been the consensus of biologists for over 100 years, and developmental biologists have been working constructively to provide alternative explanations, which have so far all been evolutionary in nature.
The similarities between vertebrate embryos are real. We must distinguish between observations of those similarities and hypotheses about their causes. The similarities are not in doubt; there are worthwhile studies of the degree and timing of the similarities, but none that question their overall existence. What Wells has described is one hypothesis about the cause, Haeckel's biogenetic law, which failed early and spectacularly. He has not addressed any modern hypotheses, nor has he provided a better alternative.
Evidence for common descent lies in the unity of form and process. We do not use Haeckel's outmoded, invalid mechanism to argue for evolution. Instead, we look at the marvelous convergence of disparate organisms on common principles: all animals use the same genes to define regions of their bodies, all vertebrates build their faces by unlikely rearrangements of odd pharyngeal protrusions, and even tailless mammals like us have to start with tailed embryos. The best explanation for these phenomena is that they are a consequence of a common heritage. Denial - so what? Double talk - so what? I mean, it's not like it's even quality double-talk. For example, in the next-to-last sentence it says "...all vertebrates build their faces by unlikely rearrangements..." Just how unlikely could they be if they're common to all vertebrates? "Unlikely" could mean they aren't expected to succeed, but in so many cases they do... just doesn't fly. Can't waste too much time trying to figure it out: double-talk isn't supposed to make sense. All of this is just "homologous development", and it's no better to say it's the result of common ancestry than of a common designer. Pardon me for expressing this in one easy-to-understand sentence. I know doing so provides contrast, but I actually intend what I say to be understood. The article describes how hox genes are involved in "blueprinting" the way an organism develops. The remarkable similarity in how they work, in different species, is actually good evidence that they have a common ancestor. Homology, homology, homology. Boring... You can find here an extract from a biology textbook which explains hox genes, how they control embryological development, and how they fit with evolution. This quote may be of particular interest here: [quote]Hox genes evidently duplicated twice during the evolution of invertebrates into vertebrates, justas there were multiple duplications of the globin gene. Instead of one cluster of about 10 genes on 1 chromosome like the fruit fly, the mouse has 4 clusters of about 10 genes each, on 4 different chromo-somes. Hox genes in mice and humans are very similar in number and chromosomal arrangement. It isremarkable that only about 40 genes out of a total of about 100,000 control most of the development,architecture, and appearance of the body plan of complex mammalian species. Just as recap theory in the past claimed that similarities in development provide a clue to ancestry, so... it still does! Whoever could have guessed? Please can I ask you again to research these topics and try to gain some degree of understanding before you criticise them. You assume I've done no homework. I've seen my share of what talk talkdeceptions says. So far, here's my favorite part of the speil from your link * Wells downplays the similarities that exist to emphasize the differences. This is the same biased game that Haeckel played: the only difference is that he emphasized the similarities rather than the differences.
That last point requires further explanation. What modern developmental biology has been discovering is that these earliest stages in different vertebrate embryos are substantially similar. The differences are superficial, and in many cases a consequence of different amounts of maternal investment. Simply put: Häckel was biased for stressing similarities. Wells was biased for stressing differences. Talk deceptions corrects this by stressing similarities. Come on! "The differences are superficial" = Häckel has been vindicated. Don't you speak evolutionese? But this is trivial. This is just the start of the propaganda. In a gray box over to the right, surprise! surprise! they have a link "Ontogeny and Development of Organisms The part of 29+ Evidences for Macroevolution," Folks will have no trouble guessing where this leads."Ontogeny and developmental biology" is the oh-so-cleverly-disguised section containing arguments straight from Darwin, Häckel, and the rest of the biogenetic lawyers. Talkdeceptions is pushing exactly the same thing. They say they reject recap, and turn right around an push it. I have in the past had an evolutionist or two acknowledge that talkdeceptions does this, but history does not always repeat. Place is nasty, but good laughs are to be had as well. The "2.5" section ends: From a limited knowledge of species distributions, we predict that we should never find elephants on distant Pacific islands, even though they would survive well there. {snip} Is that bold or what?
Dark Matter + Dark Energy = Dark Truth"We find that such evidence demonstrates that the ID argument is dependent upon setting a scientifically unreasonable burden of proof for the theory of evolution." - Judge Jones Kitzmiller case http://www.talkreason.org/articles/Falsify.cfm"To Compel A Man To Furnish Funds For The Propagation Of Ideas He Disbelieves And Abhors Is Sinful And Tyrannical." - Thomas Jefferson "And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with his wrath?" - Thomas Jefferson
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