Thanks again Bex. We still have some communication problems it seems.
You've gone from saying that just because the unborn baby looks human - that doesn't mean it's fully human, to now saying that an empty birth sac means that there isn't life there yet....you're contradicting yourself.
You are conflating two different arguments. Lets focus on the first, the empty birth\pregnancy sac, where I said:
[color:"purple"]
... an empty pregnancy sac is clearly not a human life, yet your definition includes it. [/color]
From
Patient information: Miscarriage:
[color:"red"]As an example, in 1/3 of miscarriages occurring before 8 weeks, there is a pregnancy sac but no embryo inside. This means the egg was fertilized and the cells began to divide, but an embryo did not develop. [/color]
This developed from a fertilized egg, a zygote that implanted in the uterus wall and started dividing. It built the birth\pregnancy sac and a rudimentary placenta but no embryo, and all you have are parts that are normally discarded after birth, living cells that form a structure but that are not a human life.
This living cell structure began with conception, but it is not a human being. Never will be.
There is no embryo
or anything else there that can develop into a human being of any kind, no matter what heroic measures the medical people take. There is no organism to grow, no cell/s left to divide and develop into an organism.
The zygotes that only became placental sacs are not, could not become, human life.
. . . . <img src="http://herballure.com/ForumExtras/Images/wyjbammegu.jpg">
B does not equal A
A = B + {something else}
This conception does not equal human life, therefore
conception alone is not a sufficient definition of human life.
Human Life = Conception + {something else}
I said:
Quote: An egg on its own or sperm on its own does not produce a life.
You replied:
Quote: Nor does a zygote. 70% of them fail.
A zygote IS a life, regardless of "failure rate".
This is equivocating between life and human life. The sperm and the egg are also
life. The zygote is
a life a living cell, but it is not necessarily a
human life: you cannot say it is a human life when it can end up as a birth\pregnancy sac with a rudimentary placenta - a structure of living cells - but no embryo, no organism, no possible human being.
Incorrect. It doesn't "become" a human being during development in the womb. The information is there upon conception. The baby only requires enough time in the womb to grow and be ready to enter the outside world. No amount of you trying to subtract the humanity out of the child is valid.
Obviously false. You are now confusing (equivocating) the end product with beginning stage:
Conception + {time in the womb} is not just conception anymore.
It also is not necessarily human life when clearly not all beginning stage zygotes make it to the first week (55% fail) or to the 20th week (70% fail) naturally and under the best medical care.
In the case discussed above the information "there upon conception" was only sufficient to build a birth\pregnancy sac with a rudimentary placenta - a structure of living cells, of life - but no embryo, no organism, no human being in some cases. Likewise keeping a
dead fetus in the womb will not result in a human being no matter how long (3 years?) you keep it there. In these cases conception plus "time in the womb" is still not human life:
Human Life = Conception + {time in the womb} + {something else}
A full term fully developed and normal fetus ready to enter the outside world is one of the successful few (<30%) of the zygotes at the beginning, it is not the same as a zygote, and no amount of emotional appeals, false terminology, wishful thinking or equivocation will make it so.
<img src="http://herballure.com/ForumExtras/Images/lhsvdciwrb.jpg">
Every stage of development is a hurdle that the fetus must successfully pass to become a human life.
Enjoy.
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Note: my time is limited, so I only choose threads of particular interest to me and I cannot guarantee a reply to all responses (particularly if they do not discuss the issue/s),
and I expect other people to do the same. Thank you for your consideration.[/color]
