Hi Bex,
I'll try to keep this brief, since like you I'd just like to get on with discussing the ideas that this forum was presumably created for. And as you say, some of your comments have been addressed by me in other posts.
One of my comments you allude to needs to be seen in its proper context. I was firmly disagreeing with something SoSick said. She said in post 250608, in "Evolution: The Missing Link of Abortion" (which in itself is rather a dubious idea to have to quote):
God is not a respecter of persons, despite all of their 'tremendous' achievements. Our thoughts are not God's thoughts... and our tremendous achievements... well... if God were a man to compete with that might hold a drop of water. All of our tremendous achievements are nothing but dust in his eyes. A lot of really fithy dust too.
She then added the bit about God not caring about Ferraris, which I actually don't object to. I said in reply to this:
Tell me this: What matters more? That your worldly achievements include inventions that have helped people or even saved lives, that you'd led them to stand up for their rights, that you've touched individual lives by doing charity work or caring for friends and family in difficult times? Or that you've been kneeling in church and mouthing platitudes to a God who is apparently so narcissistic that all he cares about is how much he is worshipped? I think what we do here on earth, especially with/for other people, is worth a great deal. What else is the point in being here?
I hope you can see that I was being sarcastic. I am not actually an atheist. I believe in the divine in my own way. I was expressing the view that the way we act toward each other, and the things we achieve in life -- not materialistic goals but others -- matter very much. And that someone who thinks they are holy because they go to church and pray, though they may hypocritically be doing every nasty thing under the sun while outside of church, is not as in touch with the divine as they may like to believe.
I do not believe this is an insult to Christians. In fact I daresay you could hear a priest or minister saying this in church, urging people to act out their faith in their lives.
I grew up with a religion that told me exactly that: I am a sinning piece of dirt in constant need of God's forgiveness. This is why Catholics go to confession.
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No religions I know of, Catholicism included, preaches this. Show me where in the Catholic Catechism, or the bible where it tells you that? Who are the preacher/evangelists that have said this? And you say you've read the bible? Seems to me that misrepresentation/manipulation is part of your tactic.
This is what I genuinely experienced as a Catholic growing up. Some people half-jokingly call it the "Catholic guilt complex," though I have heard members of other sects express the philosophy that we are nothing in God's eyes but miserable sinners. If you do not believe this then in my opinion it's healthy for you. I know that not all Christians think this way but it was what I heard after going to church every Sunday for years. Do you have that much experience of being a Catholic? Is it honestly hard to accept that I am faithfully representing what happened to me?
Over and over what I am reading here is people making vague assertions, not bothering to back them up with evidence or even a citation from a website or a link or a study, and then telling me they are tired of me telling them they have not actually given any evidence or explained anything. As I said earlier, if there are no forthcoming answers to the set of questions I gave a few posts back, then I will assume no one here is capable of answering them. It's OK, the creationist leaders can't do it either and they're the supposed experts.
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Then when links and websites are provided, here is the response:
Bex, I've also made the point to Russ several times over that entire websites and links do not constitute proof. I do not go to the trouble of explaining in detail -- for example, the structure of the eye -- and be told in reply "look up this link." In a debate you provide evidence in your own words, showing that you understand it, can select it appopriately, and summarise it. This is why long quotes pasted from other websites don't count as evidence either.
Bex it took me an hour to find this but I knew I remembered it and for sure I wasn't going to say I couldn't find it. You said:
Certainly you have nothing to back up your claim of anybody stating that bad things happen to people because they deserve it. Another attempt at blackening their characters and no doubt Christianity, though you claim otherwise.
In post 241583 of "Does God Exist?" in the mercury forum, SoSick said:
Praise God I was looking for a good price on spirulina, thank you Jesus. Told 'ya he answers all my prayers, just have to ask.
I replied:
Wow, I wish I'd known that all I have to do is ask God for everything I want and if he really loves me he'll give it all to me. He must think Bill Gates and Rupert Murdoch are saints.
She said:
I have no idea what Bill Gates' and Rupert Murdoch's relationship with God are, maybe they are just really smart and at least don't do things that offend him. hard to say.
I said:
I take it that the people here who have been ill for years aren't very close to him either, including those who profess to be just as fervently Christian as you. You'd better go tell them what they're doing wrong and re-wire their hotlines to God because they seem to be malfunctioning.
She said:
However, insofar as thinking I am closer to God than others, or telling them that they need to rewire their connections with him.... no... I think you should tell them that because I never said it, in fact I never even thought it. I was speaking to you, not the whole room.
I said:
I was extrapolating . . . if you say that God will give you what you want if you have a good relationship with him, you do not mean that goes for me and me alone.
It also follows that the Christians here who are suffering terribly with their illnesses are not getting what they want/need despite their faith. I'm sorry I got a little bitter in responding to that, but I don't see a lot of logic here. You're telling me that Jesus took time out to help you get a bargain deal, but he is not helping someone like Jinx who is at the end of his tether? Strange indeed are the ways of the Lord eh? You're also telling me that "successful" people like Bill Gates and Rupert Murdoch must be on God's good books, or haven't done anything to anger him etc, hence their continued good fortune? Does that mean the people who died in Hurricane Katrina, for example, were being punished? That those who are impoverished, starving, etc, deserve to be, through divine will? What sort of nursery-school logic is this?
Bottom line, it sounds like you are saying that those of us who do not follow the Christian faith have brought our problems on our own heads.
She did not reply to this.
Did she say outright that bad things happen to people because they are not in God's good books? No, it's true she didn't.
Does the sort of logic she is following in these statements imply this? Yes I believe it does. She could have pursued this point with me but chose not to.
Finally, your points about Hovind. Please prove that he knows more about science than me. I keep asking people here to present evidence of his expertise but usually as a reply Russ directs me to his website, or a long video which I will not watch. I want to see specific evidence here that he actually does know what he's talking about.
And about public debates -- surely you realise that they are exercises in public speaking. While Hovind is a scientific ignoramus, I have to admit that he is a master of rhetoric. However, as we all know from salesmen, the gift of gab does not guarantee truth.
