In order to communicate effectively with each other, it seems to me that we do need to correctly absorb the information others present to us without always being offended by ideas that oppose our own. This sometimes seems to be a problem. Many people do believe that there is a problem with modern education and the ability of many to communicate and analyze information effectively. Education in different countries does also differ, so views of public education may not be pertinent to countries such as Poland, Japan or New Zealand etc, or they might, only people in those countries would know.


You may have seen this by now:

Miss Teen SC Answers a question
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQdhMSEqhfg

----

Or this:

Stupid in America
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfRUMmTs0ZA

----

This is helpful:

Request: British Education System Explained
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usq7h3n8GUw

---

And this is an excellent article:

The Other Crisis in American Education

http://catholiceducation.org/articles/education/ed0025.html

Best way to communicate is by not thinkin ya know it all and call people names like Pwcc, or pig.
Wake up, we're so sick of it.
Don't give a monkey's what ya say about me.

Well said, Elvis. Well said.


I don't think we have the communication problem here, SoSick - and the weight of my statement should be reinforced by the fact that everyone (with the exception of you) seems to agree. You simply need to be more polite, exercise some restraint and stop treating other people like rubbish. No one deserves to be called a pig and I know I don't deserve being told to shut up. It's not a misinterpretation of words. If you called someone a pig, you called them a pig. If you told someone to shut up, you told them to shut up. I even found an old post where you attributed another poster's excitement about a subject to little children learning how to use the toilet! This is absolutely uncalled for and the only reason I'm wasting the time to say any of this is because no administrator has seen fit to either give you a warning or simply ban you outright.

Now imagine if I called a girl a tramp and when she gets offended I have the audacity to tell her "Oh, no, not tramp like TRAMP, I'm talking about the 16th century use of the word which implies <insert bullshit excuse here>." This seems to be your strategy. It's called bait and switch. You lure someone in deliberately to offend them and then when they, obviously, get offended you try to come up with some absurd malarkey saying that they just don't understand what you mean. You should know full well in advance how being called a pig will be received by others - actually trying to explain your rationale (or lack thereof) is only adding insult to injury. It would've been better had you apologized or, at the very least, said nothing at all.

Flaming others is always unacceptable behavior, even if someone started by flaming you first (which nobody has done!)

I'm actually going to put a please before this, though I don't feel you deserve it. Please, I'm asking you. Stop insulting other people.

Guys, I suggest you reread the posts, and stop using my statements out of context. I have never once entered a thread here without the very best of intentions, only to be ridiculed for either being a Christian or presenting information contrary to misinformation being presented by others.

I do realize some of my responses have been rather crude. but they are only equitable responses to your attitudes already presented, which obviously you are either unaware of or choose to ignore. I am unable to count the number of times I have been called names such as ignorant and stupid and many others, and likewise implied regardless of how 'politely'.

If Pwcca's name offends you Elvis, I suggest you discuss it him or her and likewise discontinue your own nicknaming based on other people's usernames to show your sincerity.

Mostly guys, it's real apparent you do not like Christians and your daily battering of such does suggest to me that that is your primary purpose here.

I have no problem at all with moderate Christians. I've known some with deeply-held beliefs who seem to truly live the spirit of the Bible and Jesus, and do not have an unkind or intolerant bone in their bodies. If that's what genuine Christianity is then I'm all for it, they would make the world a better place.

I do have more trouble with fundamentalism in all its forms, especially when its unquestioning dogma clashes, in my opinion, with people's freedom to live their lives without fear of oppression or denial of their human rights. I feel that many fundamentalist beliefs violate those things. I'm not just talking about Christian fundamentalists. And as far as I am concerned they are free to do what they want to, until they start taking on the power to dictate to others as well. I very strongly oppose states forcing teachers to teach creationism in science classes. I firmly believe that children should be educated about the world, whether it is science or sex or whatever. They might feel that certain things are sinful or not, or their parents may feel that way, but for my part I will not leave them in the darkness of ignorance.

I'm happy to talk about these things if you can do it in a civilised way. You've frankly been rather rude and don't seem to think any kind of apology is called for, so I'm not holding my breath.

I can safely say that, nope, I don't have an issue with Christians specifically.

I have a problem with calling other people pigs and telling them to shut up, that they're ignorant and that they are not welcome to share their opinions on this discussion board and so on.

It doesn't really matter who's saying these things, be they Christian or Hare Krishna or atheist or Celtic Reconstructionist. I don't want to see these kinds of remarks from anyone.

Right, you already said that. But you are still out of context and don't seemed to have gleaned anything past personal offense from the post you are quoting. I put a link right here very conveniently:

The Other Crisis in American Education

http://catholiceducation.org/articles/education/ed0025.html

to hopefully help you resolve your problems with context and comprehension. I found it just the other evening for you, Elvis, and Linda. Amazingly, it is exactly what I have been telling you also. Almost perfectly exact.


great then visit some homosexual activist website forums and give them piece of your mind. You'll probably have fun with human secularists too.

I think Linda was suppose to give us a discussion about how humanism and Michalangelo's Cistene Chapel works are relevant to human secularism. But she may have been busy trying to figure out how wrangle an apology without having to also figure out how to enforce double standards.

Visit any activist website and you are likely to find extremist opinions not held by the mainstream.

I didn't say Michaelangelo was a human secularist (which would obviously be wrong), I said he was a humanist. That is the actual word you used yourself.

It would be a lot more pleasant to talk with you if you could refrain from taking pot-shots at people. Maybe you are upset about some things some people have said, but why not try to discuss them and give your own opinions without the constant offensive personal remarks. I do not require an apology. I do, however, wonder why I keep getting into discussions with someone so consistently insulting. All these discussions require is a basic respect for the humanity of the person sitting at the other keyboard.

You would like to hear my opinions about the article? OK. I graduated from a high school in Nebraska in the early 90s and went to a liberal arts college. I taught high school English in the UK for 5 years. The system is different in some key ways here. I would say that the English curriculum is more rigorous and demanding here, and by the time a student has passed their A-Levels, their skills in literary analysis are usually superior to those of many US college graduates. I am not exaggerating. However, there are problems with this too. British A-Levels force students to specialise at a very early age, assuming they can have a good idea of what career they want to pursue for the rest of their lives. They are very academic and the students are tested ad nauseam; there is huge pressure on teachers to teach to the tests, because people want to see "results," and they get put into school league tables which are used in political ping-pong. And guess what -- university professors here are also complaining that standards in written English have dropped. This is maybe partly to do with the fact that teaching explicit grammar went out of vogue for a whole generation -- mine -- and while I was teaching I found that many of my colleagues had not themselves been taught very basic grammatical knowedge. This has been changing for the past several years.

This article says that US students are struggling to get meaning out of a text and that thier writing skills are rather basic, though their grammar is OK. This seems pretty well in line with the sort of education I got in junior high and high school. Compared to the sort of textual analysis that is done with similarly-aged students here, all I can remember doing there is having a good talk about what we'd read. And occasionally writing the odd short story. I had some super teachers who really brought the texts to life, but we were not taught how to really examine and analyse what we read. Little of this went on even in college. Pretty unbelievable, but true.

Like many similar discussions with an element of nostalgia, this article talks about how parents and grandparents did so much better in US schools. I would like to see some statistics for how many people went to school earlier in the 20th century -- how many graduated from high school, how many went to college. College seems to be almost a minimum requirement now for anyone hoping for something better than a mcjob. Whether you are academically suited or not, it has become the necessary qualification. Even masters degrees are becoming a dime a dozen in many professions. Where do you stop? Just how much higher education does a person need in order to work in an office? In the past, if you were keen to go be a builder or a plumber, you left school and got apprenticed to someone. Nowadays you have to stay in school even if academics are not your forte. I think there is still very much an academic elitist attitude in US education, surpassed only by the elitist attitude toward sports. If you are good at either of these you are adulated. If you're not, you just become a little cog in a big system, more or less forgotten about. No matter that when you actually leave school, the fact that you got straight A's means nothing if you don't know that in order to get ahead in your job you've got to wear the right clothes and know the right people.

I think schools can go toward improving academic excellence for those whom it would benefit. They also need to offer more to people who can't cope with this, and there are many. I've taught them. We have a national curriculum here for many subjects. I have been forced to teach it, and the major academic high school test (called GCSE), to a small group of boys who had behaviour problems, who could barely read and write, and many of whom wanted to be a mechanic in a garage or just wanted to get out altogether, onto the streets if nothing else. I had to teach them Shakespeare. I had to make them write essays. They achieved a lot considering the circumstances, but it was also one of the most stressful periods of my life, and I had this class for 2 years. I will discuss this example in detail to anyone who advocates a blanket "academic excellence" emphasis in schools. Great for some, not for others.

It wasn't all that bad when I was in school. I read classics in junior high English (though not so much, strangely, in advanced placement high school Engish): A Tale of Two Cities, The Time Machine, Antigone, To Kill a Mockingbird, Romeo and Juliet. OK textual analysis was almost non-existent, but at least I enjoyed those books and we had some great discussions, which is why I still remember them today. A good teacher can go a long way toward making up for weaknesses in the curriculum.

And even though I would have been considered an academic, I do have to ask why people are so concerned that students consistently do well in so many disciplines. I did math through calculus. I found it interesting. But to be honest, how have I ever made use of that? It had never figured into what I've done in my day-to-day life or my career. I couldn't do an integral to save my life now because I've forgotten how. Yes let people take these classes, but I think a lot of debate needs to take place before we say that certain skills are important for everyone to have. And up to what level? That needs to be decided too.

I think US schools would greatly benefit from teaching logic, religious education, and life skills (called personal and social education here). Children need to learn how to manage finances, how to develop their social skills, and even how to care for babies and children. Schools need to prepare children for life, not just teach them academics. When I left school, entering the "real world" was a huge and painful slap in the face. That shouldn't be the case for anyone. All that praise for how clever I was, for getting good grades? It meant just about zero.

Just to touch on some other points here. This article really likes bashing the 60s and hippy/liberal values. I wouldn't mind reading similar articles with different underlying prejudices, see what common ground there is. A lot of people like to blame everything on the 60s. I like to blame lots of things on Thatcher and Reagan myself.

I'm also not keen on the simplistic analysis of ability-grouping here. The only factual thing that can be said is that there's controversy about it, and always has been. I'm aware of the problems in a mixed-ability classroom, I've taught in them. But when you group according to ability, you also get problems. The brightest students usually do well. The middle-ability students lack the examples and the contributions of the brighter students and can remain stuck in mediocrity, never aspiring for anything better. The bottom sets are hell. These are the sorts of things that make teachers quit their jobs. When you are put in a bottom set you know it. Many children in these groups have very little self-esteem. They reinforce each other's bad behaviour. They will often do anything to avoid the actual work. However, separate children like this, put them in a larger group of students who are more well behaved and willing to work, and you often find the problems disappear. As long as you put children into sets you get bottom sets. Sometimes these children really are lovely but more often they will collectively test the patience of the most experienced and skilled teachers, and make them wonder why they bring themselves in for more punishment day after day.

I have been selling some old books at local second-hand book shops without much success, because the shop owners are telling me that they don't sell so many books themselves anymore. People aren't reading as much. I suppose it stands to reason. We've got TV, ipods, MySpace, text messaging, any number of things that many people would rather do. People also have shorter attention spans for a variety of reasons. Is forcing more books on them in school the answer? You'd have a tough fight. I think you'd simply find that most of the students haven't done the reading. Parents vary in how much they can or will help their children with homework, whether or not they encourage them to do it.

Overall this is a well contructed article, but there needs to be a lot of debate. I think the idea of a national curriculum should be considered, but you have to beware of what's happened with it here. It is so prescriptive, at least in my subject, that teachers have little room for autonomy or decision-making in which texts to study. The best thing about it though? Whatever assessment grade you give can be understood across the country, and you can explain to a student how they got it and how they can improve. Better than a 'C' written in red on top of your paper with no comments isn't it?

I don't need to read some link to understand the "greater meaning" to your insults.

I'll say it one last time.

You called someone a pig and told others to shut up, that their opinions aren't welcome here.


This is exactly the problem I am talking about. Responses like these which are so filled with condescension and sarcasm. Discussions about homosexuality are welcome here so there's no need to send us elsewhere - that send, since you are not an administrator (thankfully) I don't see it as your place to tell us such things anyway.

SS, so nice of ya to "hopefully try an solve ( our ) prollems of comprehension and context."
Ah'd like to hopefully help ya solve your prollem of offendin everbody ya talk to. Which is why Ah am glad ya started this thread, Ah'm lookin at it like an invitation Ah can't refuse.
No matter how much ya try an worm your way out a the insults prollem through ludicrous justification, this here is an opportunity for ya to look yourself an how people percieve ya.
Quite a few folks left this forum after the attackin ya did on two threads in particular. Strangely ,these threads were on subjects that in fact, ya agree with an have knowledge on, yet ya subverted these threads for the sole purpose a spreadin bad feelin.( Or are ya a coadjutor? ) In fact ya created a circus of enmity. Outcome of which was, instead a people openin up to new ideas ya turned em all off. Was this your intention? Ya just want to be special an keep the knowledge for yourself alone?
Egon , way back, who had some interestin things to say , has disappeared after ya ridiculed him with the potty remarks ( an the rest), but a course, Ah think this all says much more about you.
The idea a someone behavin as y'all do suddenly feelin all sensitive about folks attitudes to Christianity is hogwash, the Christians hereabouts are the most cohesively well represented belief system on the forum. It's YOUR brand a Christianity, the world accordin to SS that folks can't stomach. Were ya sick on the days humility was taught?

An everwhere ya turn up, preachin the gospel yet talkin like the devil .

Ah think y'all should look at this like a wonderful opportunity to have a good look at yourself. Maybe the lord has led ya to this, certainly your own insultin an provacative behaviour has.

Did the lord tell ya to jettison all those psychology books when ya got to the parts about narcisism? (Not to mention projection!!)
Ah truly do wish ya luck on lookin at yourself, but ah course, Ah said it before, y'all think everbodys marchin outta step except you. One day this ain't gonna work no more , an for that day commin, y 'all have ma compassion, but for now, it's wasted on ya. Could be another lifetime away, though.

Hiya Elvis. My 4-year-old daughter was wondering why so many people on her CBeebies children's TV channel impersonate Elvis, so I showed her a few internet vids. So are ya doing all those sexy rockin' moves still, or going around in the cape and flares munching the burgers? LOL she seemed impressed anyway, nobody does it like the king.

You betcha!
No burgers, no cape, an the rockin moves nowadays are directed towards shakin-up the status quo, so nope, some things haven't changed.

So why are the opinions of these people so important if they are not held by the mainstream? If they are not held by the mainstream, which I would agree, why are their agendas influencing our culture so greatly?



Michelangelo would faint if you informed him that he was a humanist. He, along with other artists and craftsmen of his time and even a good few hundred years previous, are responsible for some of the greatest religious artworks known to mankind.


<img src="http://herballure.com/ForumExtras/Images/acapdnkvnl.jpg">
Eden


<img src="http://herballure.com/ForumExtras/Images/ptjhevcknj.jpg">
The Creation of Adam


Read the Humanist Manifesto, there are 3 parts to date, beginning in 1933. Human Secularism relies heavily on the ideologies of the humanist manifesto. Humanists would bulldoze the Cistene Chapel if given the opportunity, just as they have worked very hard to make works of this nature unavalable in the public sphere within our time.



Potshots?




What upsets me is the lack of information that you use to present your opinions. Your opinions by themselves do not upset me even in the least. When, however, you consistenly use misinformation to prop them up in ways that make you feel good about yourself and then continue to argue without actually researching your own credibilty, it is frustrating to say the least.




No, you truly do not, at least not from anyone else. You might however inquire as to the possibilty of an apology to yourself for not exploring the basis' of your own misleading ideas which you are very quick to hold to and to present and surely must cause you much embarrassment not only here but elsewhere.


Regarding education, it should concern you greatly. Especially in light of the fact that this problem does not simply affect you or I, but it is more than apparent in doctors and dentists under the age of 35 also. It does not apply to every single one of course, there are always those who will escape trends of this nature, but it does apply to a large majority unfortunately.

It has never been my intention to offend you. Yet you consistently take offense to views that oppose your own and to information presented in proper context that opposes your own misinformation.

My opinion is really not all that important which is why I do not offer it very often. I would rather hope you would be able to see that your own opinions are greatly influenced by a lack of information... a position which you seem to enjoy holding onto that relies on misinformation.

As concerns things like sit down shut up etc Pwcc, that even is not my opinion. I would never treat anyone like that. Why you are unable to get it by now I really do not know. That, as I told you originally, is the attitude presented to school chlidren by people from the homosexual community who desire more than anything to present their unpopular views in an environment that is generally hostile to those views because, as Linda stated, theirs is not the mainstream but rather very much a minority view. Yet they continue to try to force it upon us. And the attitude yes, is one of sit down shut up and listen, I should add, whether you like it or not.

Ive heard the "you don't know what you are talking about/you are misled/you are ignorant" line from you and Russ and a few others many times over now. I think some others here would disagree with that. You have some firmly-held opinions and when people oppose those you take the stance that you have much knowledge and they don't. If you think that is the case then back your own statements up with more facts, tell me specifically where you think my facts are wrong or lacking (and I will find more), and please stop generalising.

You asked me what I thought of the article and I responded based on what most people would consider to be relevant experience. If you don't like what I said then fair enough I guess, though I regret the time I wasted writing that post now.

The people you are defining as secular humanists seem to have drawn your bile about as much as homosexuals. I find myself not really wanting to discuss this any further as I am tired of all the prejudice here against these groups of people, but I thought I would point out that there seems to be a conflict between our respective definitions of "humanist."

BTW I read a news story today about a Republican senator who had been known as being anti-gay. He was caught by a policeman in a very compromising situation in the toilets and his career is now in ruins. I believe the Bible says, let the one who is without sin cast the first stone? As you know I don't believe there is anything wrong with homosexual behaviour, but he was hoisted by his own petard as they say. I wonder how many other self-righteous people hide a few hypocritical little secrets?

I do, just as I have done above. But you aren't interested. As you said above, you have a different definition (of things). I don't respond to all of your stuff Linda, the opinions are quite numerous and I have other things to do.

Where I went to college, our first day, reception, began with in the auditorium with a speech that went something like... 'congratulations, you made it... you are the cream of the crop... you have scored higher and have shown more potential than 98% of all high school seniors entering college this year... but don't get too full of yourself because that doesn't mean we're going to keep you..'



I would be interested as to where you get your 'most people' data.

Our first year of college was pretty tough. Mostly they wanted us to think. We spent a great deal of time studying history, humanities and ethics, Kant, Machiavelli, Proust etc things of that nature. That was the ethics portion of our first year, we were not allowed to voice opinions, we were allowed to ask questions of course. We were there to learn, not to voice opinions. The second portion of our first year was pretty much 'critique' in which we were given assigments, allowed to voice opinions in regard to our projects and other students work also. It was in critique that they taught us to think about ourselves and our own context within this time and place. It was also in critique that it was pretty much decided whether or not you would be allowed to return to finish the next 3 years, which would be dedicated to your major. Critique had two effects on people, a negative effect and a positive effect, that was it's purpose. If during critique you cried and ran away at the harsh opinions of others, you were first scolded and then if you repeated that behavior they simply asked you leave. If you made it through cirtique, it was assumed you could handle the world's opinion too and succeed. It was a pretty good school, it's right up there with Harvard and Yale in far as competiveness, and you'll find pretty much the same situation at any of those colleges.. Cry, repeatedly voice your own opinion without considering others, especially in context to known information, and you get cut.

I graduated in 1982 with a BFA, so if you want to discuss Michelangelo, you are in the right place. If you want to tell me your definitions are different, well I can't help you because I don't live on an island alone by myself so the agreed upon and well known definitions, history and context, are important to me even if they don't matter to you.

Essentially, end of conversation. It's not I who lives on my own planet but yourself.

I went to college here:
http://www.cooper.edu

Here is cooper in a list of most competitive colleges for 2008:
http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandr...ge/rankings/brief/webex/lowacc_brief.php

and it holds that place rank for academics consistently wherever you look every year, generally always right behind Harvard.

I don't see any nebraska schools on the list. So, even though you have repeatedly called me uneducated and ignorant for believing in God, I beg to differ. You are describing yourself.

Here's one of my paintings btw:
<img src="http://herballure.com/ForumExtras/Images/zazbxpwvog.jpg">

You may have seen my work in public places also, it's around. Obviously when my hands were numb from mercury poisoning it really worried me. so all of your cilantro jokes can hit the garbage pail too.

I am going to do series of Jesus paintings in the not too far off future too. Michelangelo style.

This'll impress jill.

By your own admission, you use your "instincts" a lot.

Could it be that I'm right when I say that you should examine the possibility that your instincts are wrong?

Is this how you discern the world?

Is this scientific?

These are valid questions that anyone who listens to your interpretation of the evidence for evolution or against the Bible should consider.


Know yourself.

One day you may realize that those who control you know you better than you know yourself.

Russ, you seem to have strong feelings about homosexuality.

I find that interesting in a man who has never been married or had long term romantic relationships.

Could your religious fervor be a means of protecting yourself from some difficult personal truths?

Your last post Russ could equally be said to you and to your beliefs. You seem to make assumptions again and again about knowing thyself as if those who do not study the bible do not know themselves. Which of course is highly unlikely to be true.

...And you have reached this conclusion how?

Do you know what effect an understanding of the Bible has on a person? Please tell me if you know.

You also preach about logic and reason and then people here use "instincts" to discern truth.


The search for truth begins with a thorough self examination.

Know yourself.

But I could apply the same logic to a great many works of writing.

I adore Elizabethan and Jacobean Drama. So much that I even went so far as to major in it at university. There are so many phrases, and words even, that we use today which were created by William Shakespeare and yet most people aren't even aware of this fact. Why, just the other day I was talking to someone and just to be sort of witty and silly I agreed with her comment by saying, "Aye, there's the rub." She looked at me and went 'Huh!?' As shocking as it is for you, Russ, that some people do not know the bible (and therefore, according to your own personal logic, do not know themselves) I have to say I was utterly shocked that she had no idea what I was referencing: the "To Be or Not To Be" soliliquy from Hamlet, Prince of Denmark, of course. You don’t need to be a Shakespeare buff to know that one! Or so I thought.

So


By the same token, do you, Russ, know what an understanding of Elizabethan and Jacobean literature has on a person? I do know and I could arguably say it’s an enlightenment of sorts. Indeed, so profound are some of the works which I’ve not only read but studied (for a mark in school mind you), from The White Devil by James Webster to As You Like It by William Shakespeare, not to mention works by Thomas Middleton and many others, that I’d say it’s through these literary endeavors alone that I have come to learn a greater understanding of myself. The philosophies and lessons about life written now centuries ago are still ripe with meaning and portent, as useful and applicable to today’s world as it was to 16th and 17th century England. Your bible on the other hand – a work of art which I am in no way discrediting – is only partially applicable to today’s living standards. Much of it was written for desert faring peoples of a much bygone era. It’s not applicable 100% to today’s world and as such I am far more likely to “know myself” through the philosophical excerpts of William Shakespeare and his contemporaries than any religious scripture. Or if not "far more likely" than at least no more or no less. The bible is but one piece of work. It is not the piece of work.

I do know myself. And I'm getting to know him a little more each day.

I believe you're reading way too far into this Pwcca.

Here's what you said...



Did I say knowing that Bible was the only way to know yourself?

No.

But I know from experience it is an excellent way, in fact, the most thorough and purging way that I've found.

Pertaining to the rest of your statements...

How can you make such blanket remarks about a book you know nothing about, and immediately after you used your same logic to ask me if I knew the effects of Elizabethan and Jacobean literature? (Do you see the contradiction of logic here?)

I don't question the beauty or effect this literature can have on a person, and I think it's great that you enjoy it, but I would ask you the question:

Does Elizabethan and Jacobean literature contain prophecies foretelling the future, or does it contain gematria?

These are important questions because the Bible claims to be inspired by God—in some cases directly and in other cases indirectly—and it contains the concept of "authentication" to prove it.

You say much/most the Bible is not applicable today.

If Christ is telling the truth, it sure does apply today.

If Christ is going to return, it sure does apply today.

The United States was built on Biblical principles which enabled it to become the power that it was (and sadly is no longer, because those principles have been violated). The forefathers knew these principles and applied them and many have been blessed as a result. The concepts of Biblical freedom have been tested and have blessed many with true freedom.

Do you know better than the forefathers?

Could you form a more successful country than they, based on better principles, perhaps?

With all due respect, you know nothing about the Bible and you have numerous preconceived ideas about it that are simply untrue, and this is coming from someone who does know the Bible.

With all due respect, the Bible is very pertinent today for many reasons, one being that the nature of mankind does not change which is why natural law still works. When you violate natural law however, you lead yourself into disaster, which is happening today in many nations and the fruit of which will be revealed before long.

Pwcca, I appreciate your passion, but why don't you consider reading the Bible along with your other books in an effort to explore the depths of what it can uncover?

Why all the resistance and prejudice, and sometimes hostility?
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

To me this kind of sounds like a rather round about way of saying that the bible really is the only (thorough) way of knowing “thyself”. You seem to be saying: “But wait, I didn’t say that! Except, well .. OK, it is more or less true anyway.”


Possibly, though I’d be surprised. I can’t say I’m concerned with prophecies however. Some biblical prophecies may very well be true, granted – including non-Christian prophecies. But then there’s the whole fallacy to most prophecies anyway (like your example of orange paper money.) If I foretell that in 100 years from now wearing wigs will be all the rave, and then in 100 years wigs really do become a fashion, does that mean I actually prophesized anything or that people read what I was foretelling and put my words to use? Maybe the person who read about orange money took that very idea and made it possible – because he read it, not because it was destiny or fate.


If the United States’ descent is because it stopped observing biblical law then how come so many European countries are marvelously successful nations yet their laws are not based on biblical law? I’d say the U.S. is diminishing because it acts so unilaterally amongst its peers.


If by forefathers you mean people such as Andrew Jackson, who murdered innocent Native Americans and – no joke – had their skins tanned into hide to be used for his horse’s bridle and whip, then I daresay yes. I think I know more than some of them.



Honestly, it really just doesn’t inspire me. I’ve made some comments about the bible, sure, but I’m generally not out there pointing out all its fallacies for you to ask me how I can do such a thing if I haven’t read it. I am not doing such a thing and I haven’t read it.

I can’t expect you to be as enthused as I am about Renaissance drama – why expect me to be as enthused as you about a religion I wasn’t born into? Asking me to study the bible is akin to asking me to study any other religion’s scripture. Why Christianity among all the rest? I’m not saying I won’t outright (though as I mentioned, it really just doesn’t appeal to me personally – we all have our interests.) There are a lot of books I have on my list to read next. On my pending list right now are: the entire Dune Series (for the second time) by Frank Herbert, The Standing Dead, by Ricardo Pinto, Stardust, by Neil Gaiman, The Island of the Day Before, by Umberto Ico and this gigantic tome I own on the Crusades which I don’t have with me to provide an accurate title for. And all my friends keep heaping more suggestive reading on top of this (all of which I do intend to eventually tackle.) So you want to convince me to add the Christian Bible to the list. OK, why should I select that work over any other religion’s scripture? Why should it take precedence over, say, the Tibetan Book of the Dead (which I haven’t read) or the Bhagavad Gita or the Qur’an?


I’m probably the least hostile poster on this board. As for resistance and prejudice. Aren’t you the one who discriminates against homosexuals? If I’m resisting anything it’s the resistance to follow your belief system – just as you too may be resisting mine. I have nothing against you and I don’t say anything on here to be rude or sarcastic. I actually enjoy reading many of your posts and appreciate all the work you've put into both this forum and the mercury issue.
So everything I say really is an honest-to-god reply - not some "nyah nyah" reaction fueled only by a desire to argue for the sake of arguing. I know it’s hard to believe when surrounded by so many inauthentic posters but I really am being straight forward with everything that I say.

Blessed be.

Russ I have reached this conclusion through my own spritual journey as I have stated before. I study the Dharma and engage in an insight meditation practice. The heart of the Buddha's teachings are about thorough self examination and engaging in the practice of questioning everything.


I dont believe I preach and I am not responsible for what others post. But instincts, intuition etc are important sources of information taken in balance with the intellect. If you are also referring to Linda's posts I believe she has been quite careful and thoughful in her responses to a lot of what has been said on these threads and has used and referred to various schools of thought, scientific thinking and her own personal knowledge through experience. e.g her posts on evolution and the education system

I do not rule out the Bible as tool for learning and growth as I do not rule out the Torah or the Quran.



I agree whole heartedly with you

Let me clear it up.

The Bible is not the only way to know yourself: You can do this without the help of the Bible, but, it's much easier with it.

I have experienced this in my own life and it has been a tremendous blessing.


(I think you're misunderstanding the orange money thing.)

Let me give you the simple truth.

If you continue to accept these propagandistic views of Bible prophecy, you will really end up regretting it.

I have done my homework and discovered these things to be true and that they have been dramatically life changing.

The choice is yours.


The most successful European countries are based on varying degrees of Biblical law, but again, how would you know this if you know nothing about Biblical law.

I would recommend reading the Federalist Papers and learning about English Common Law.

The Federalist Papers


The irony here is that you're simply believing anti-American propaganda (which has been an ongoing theme).

With all due respect, please do your homework.

There is a biblical way of treating people. What better way for the powers-that-be to keep you from reading the Bible than to slander it by imputing the false belief that it fosters deception and oppression.

The irony is that those who are selling you this bag of goods are those who actually are bringing deception and oppression.


Do what you will is the whole of the law.
(not from the Bible)

If you really want to understand these things, you will do the required work. The choice is yours.

I am simply telling you that the answers to life's questions are found in the Bible and that the Bible will help prepare you for the things to come. Better buckle up.

By the way, how can you know that the Bible does not inspire you if you haven't read it?


(1) Prophecy

(2) Gematria


The real question is:

Is the Bible what it claims to be?

If so, then what is says about homosexuality is very important.

You may even be eventually led to ask if it is true that homosexuality is associated with the downfall of civilizations.

The civilized have been entertained into ignorance. This will eventually lead to poverty. The cycle continues, but as always, the choice is ours, as is the responsibility for the result.


The evidence is there for those who care.

Do I do everything by instinct? No.

Nor do I want to expel it from my life. It has its place.

There is a time for everything. A time to be instinctive, a time to be logical, and a time to combine the two to see insightfully.

"I don't respond to all of your stuff Linda, the opinions are quite numerous and I have other things to do."

OK, then don't expect me to look at any more links you give, if you're not interested in anything I have to say about them.

"I would be interested as to where you get your 'most people' data."

I went through the US education system during part of the time frame this article discusses. I went to college there. I taught for 5 years here in the UK. That's my data. The article was discussing things that I have experienced in a number of ways, in two different countries, as a student and a teacher.

If you want to get into one-upmanship about who went to what university and what that supposedly says about you, I couldn't give a monkey's. Like Elvis said, debate it with Jill.

"If you want to tell me your definitions are different, well I can't help you because I don't live on an island alone by myself so the agreed upon and well known definitions, history and context, are important to me even if they don't matter to you."

No, what I said is that we seem to be referring mentally to different definitions when we use the term "humanist." Why don't you define what you think it means, and I'll give my definition. Maybe we can better understand each other that way. Without the insults please.

"Essentially, end of conversation. It's not I who lives on my own planet but yourself."

OK, refer to my above comment. Try writing just one post to me that doesn't contain some derrogatory remark. Go on, I dare you, give it a go.

"I don't see any nebraska schools on the list. So, even though you have repeatedly called me uneducated and ignorant for believing in God, I beg to differ."

You are putting words into my mouth. I have no problem with moderate Christians and I don't think they are ignorant because they believe in God. I do have a problem with fundamentalism in all its forms, no matter what religion.

Do you think you are setting a good example of them for others here?

I second that!

No way it'll happen either - unless it's a single sentence post.

Disclaimer: sarcastically pretending to be nice while actually posting veiled insults does not count.

Hey, don't prod the beast, enjoy the peace!

It sounds to me like you are the one influened by the propagandists of the world if you believe that America was ever a Utopian dreamworld when, in reality, since its very inception America has always stood overwhelmingly for evil, its forefathers being no exception to this rule.

I wonder what you'd say if someone showed you a copy of Andrew Jackson's diary where he writes about the "lesser" Native Americans and how he tanned the hide of one to be used for equestrian paraphernilia. If you actualy saw it in front of your eyes, what would you say? That it's bogus, a forgery? What smoke and mirrors would you attempt to suspend before our eyes this time?

Anyway, for the record.

"The destruction of the Indians of the Americas was, far and away, the most massive act of genocide in the history of the world." David E. Stannard

If you weren't too busy practicing Godwin's Law on this forum you might realize this fact. Please do your homework.

Pwcca, y'all might be interested in watchin Zeitgeist.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2221852945040630461
Kinda a gateway film for launchin oneself into the discovery a what the hell is goin on here behind the scenes.
Russ ( who does NOT like this film) comes from the best a intentions an it works for him, Ah just believe this bias makes him a lil narrow minded when everthing has to fit into a biblical viewpoint. Even so, Y'all ARE a true Christian, Russ unlike some, an for that, ya got ma respect. Ah like a man a principles.
If Zeitgeist is full a stuff y'all know already, there's way more diggin to be done. We all are at a crucial period in history with all the secret technology bein created to be used against us, but few folks want to know.
The truth is WAY stranger than fiction.
Personally, Ah don't see the point in these here circular arguments cuz they don't lead anawheres. Ah think we all gotta get educated for whats REALLY goin on and put our heads together for positive action.
Ain't never gonna convert somebody one way or tother. Oneupmanship is real tedious and a waste a energy.
Russ is a bible lovin Christian, lets just accept that and put our commonality to some good use cuz time is tickin ma friends.
P.S. One a the modern genocides, or eugenocides , to be more precise, goin on right now, is the chemtrailin .
What lies behind this activity is the most evil scheme known to hu-man kind. Not many humans about in positions a real power. Lets not throw away our potential power on useless arguin .

It's been fascinating to look at American history from a European perspective. I grew up in America and went through its school system. Daily pledge of allegiance to the flag. Founding fathers. George Washington and the cherry tree. And so on. The American flag flies from most every public building, and many houses, and many citizens are "proud to be American."

Move away from this and you start to see things in a bit less of a rosy light, because the people in other countries are not raised to love all those things with warm hearts. Many people here feel deeply disturbed by the open displays of patriotism over there. Patriotism here in England, as I'm sure you've gathered Elvis, tends to be associated with right-wing racist politics, and yobs at football (soccer) matches. The national day here, St. George's Day, passes by every year with little remark.

I personally don't think it's a bad thing to feel affection for your country, the place you were born. And indeed, my hudband is English through and through, with a love of many English things. But he hates it when it becomes politicised into patriotism. He is revolted when he sees all the flags in America flying.

I do feel rather resentful that my own American history was taught with such a rose-tinted glow. I was raised with a blind, unthinking pride in being American. That was part of the job of the public school system. I learned little about other countries, their way of life, their histories, their religions. I made conscious efforts to study these, but many Americans can get by not even knowing much about Mexico or Canada, let alone the rest of the world, and what a myopic view of life this gives.

Face it, you can't give the same rosy glow to people like Henry VIII here. You might admire some English kings or queens, but you can't really cast them as saintly figures, the evidence of the good and the bad they did is clear for anyone to see.

I believe with all my heart that the way toward any truth is to study it from many different perspectives. How can you recognise a cube for what it is if you don't know how to see in more than two dimensions?

The United States was built on Biblical principles which enabled it to become the power that it was (and sadly is no longer, because those principles have been violated). The forefathers knew these principles and applied them and many have been blessed as a result.

Hi, Russ, again, you are completely and proveably wrong.


Thomas Jefferson:
"The Christian god is a three headed monster, cruel, vengeful, and capricious. If one wishes to know more of this raging, three headed beast-like god, one only needs to look at the caliber of people who say they serve him. They are always of two classes: fools and hypocrites."

"I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature."

"Christianity...(has become) the most perverted system that ever shone on man. ...Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and importers led by Paul, the first great corrupter of the teaching of Jesus."

I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between church and state.
..........Letter to the Danbury Baptist Association, January 1, 1802

John Adams:
"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved--the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!"

"As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?"
..........To F.A. Van der Kamp, Dec. 27, 1816

James Madison:

"Every new and successful example therefore of a perfect separation between ecclesiastical and civil matters, is of importance"
..........James Madison, 1822, Writings, 9:101

Thomas Paine:
"All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit."

"It is the duty of every true Deist to vindicate the moral justice of God against the evils of the Bible."

"The Christian church has set up a religion of pomp and revenue in pretended imitation of a person (Jesus) who lived a life of poverty."

I believe it's just a simplistic view of history.

Britain had an empire around the world. How holy were they?

China is fast becoming powerful now. I have thought for some time that they would become the next superpower. They are not a Christian country.

Rome, Greece, Egypt, all polytheistic. According to this logic they should never have become powerful as they were idolaters. You might argue that these civilisations fell because they weren't Christian, but that would be highly debatable; like cities, civilisations rise and fall as surely as the tides.

It's easy to say that things go wrong because people turn away from religion. It gives comfort to some maybe, enables them to make sense of things, especially in times of crisis. It's what draws a lot of people into fundamentalism I think, because it gives a concrete explanation of the ills of the world. You have turned away from God -- simple as that. It's not a new idea.

Post deleted by Russ Tanner

Post deleted by LindaLou

Post deleted by Russ Tanner

Think it's time somebody called it a day.
This shoulda been put a stop to loooong time ago. This here shows a mind so-very-sick.
Gotta stop this kinda thing, Russ.

Ah really am simply appalled.
Russ, y'all said you would ban somebody when they got truly coarse. This here is beyond the realms a human decency.
Ya know this here is a seriously deranged person that doesn't belong here. People like this should not be crappin all over the forum. THERE NEEDS TO BE SOME SERIOUS PRUNING.
The person who did this needs help, big time.
Boy oh boy, takes a lot to shock me....
Did somebody come on here as anonymous cuz they lost their stars or they lost their marbles or they don't have the guts to put their name to this kinda crap?
It shouldn't a been posted it in the first place and Ah truly hope this will be the end a you .
Permanently
Get help, for the sake a your child

Thanks Elvis. Just a troll, probably a teenager with nothing better to do. Russ will clear this up when he sees it I'm sure <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Something similar happened on another forum I frequent and the board administrators decidedly prevented anonymous posting altogether. Now that's not to say someone couldn't make multiple accounts and do the same thing but it seriously cuts down on the frequency of flaming and otherwise inappropriate posting. If you have to go to the trouble to login or make an account, you're a lot less likely to do this sort of thing.

Someone please intervene. Enough is enough.

Ah don't find this poster particularly anonymous, and Ah don't like bullies, even though they are nearly always cowards.

Post deleted by Russ Tanner

It'd take more 'n a pathetic bully like you to hurt me so-sick, y'all are hurtin your sick self and Ah truly feel sorry for that daughter a yours.
Saddest thing is ya don't have somethin better to do with your anger, oh yep, if you was to analyze that, y'all would have to look inside your very ill self.
What would Jesus think? Y'all are the farthest thing from a spiritual person Ah ever had the misfortune to encounter.
Thank god it's only cyberspace.
Get help.

P.S. Your art y'all are so impressed by is banal and derivative , just photographic copyin. Not the expression of a creative human bein. Why does this not surprise me? If y'all had actually seen Jesus, ya wouldn't be talkin about paintin him in the style a Michaelangelo, y'all would be expressin yourself with your own true essence. But that would require a look into your own true self and that is obviously a very dark place. People who can't face their own inner darkness project it out onto everone else.
Narcissism, breakfast a champions, Hitler, the Bushes, all the bullies.
Y' all asked for it, gotta oblige.

Without proper administrator moderation in this thread I think the best tactic is to simply ignore its presence and continue discussing. What else can ya do!

Is this thread really worth carrying on with anyway? Was it ever? LOL Come see me on the Creationist thread, let's see if we can get some conversation going there.

I personally don't see any of the posts here as offensive. Someone obviously has a sense of humor and that's always welcome with me.

Nevertheless, since the Osama pic contains a picture of LindaLou, if Linda is offended, let me know and I will remove it, otherwise, I believe we all should relax a little and enjoy a laugh once in a while.

No offense to anyone, we just need a little stress control here.

I'm not stressed about this, but I do think it's stupid junk. If someone graffiti-ed on your wall you'd clean it off wouldn't you. If another anonymous poster interrupted every conversation saying "bibble" you'd probably get a little irritated and have it erased. I think it would show some respect for the people who were trying to talk here if it could be cleared up, thanks.

Post deleted by Elvis

OK, based on Linda's sentiments, I will remove it.

Elvis:

It would be only fair for you to recognize that I am very tolerant as a moderator of this forum, regardless of a person's position.

Muslims are welcome here and are welcome to debate all they want. I have personally spent much time in chat rooms with Muslims getting their perspectives on the world. They are humans as well.

I'm sorry if you think I've been partial but we'll have to allow those visiting this forum make up their own minds.

Regards.

I am offended by Pwcca's evil depiction of female parts in that icon.

I am also offended by the anti-christian gang mentality. Can you remove all those posts also please?

Wow.

What went on here since I was gone?

gee whiz, i am not one to complain, but I must say Elvis' accusations are rather offensive to me Russ. His seeming preoccupation with my daughter is rather questionable and quite offensive to me also. Could you delete those posts please?

I get called all sorts of names for simply saying 'Praise God' so I would like to know what the ruckus is all about. I am not a bully. I do get assailed by them though and they don't like any opposition, I am aware of that. I'd say if anyone is a bully it's probably Elvis. Look at all the nasty thing he has said here, my goodness. He is very nasty to me all the time Russ.

Oh, Praise God btw.

Arise, wake up, come away...

I am offended by Elvis's demeaning slander of southerners every time he posts something. We don't talk like that and he is obviously mocking us all the time. Or maybe he is mocking black people, it's hard to tell.

I also think Pwcca's icon is quite vulgar. One of the reason's I won't even register here is because of that. Imagine what the place would lok like if everyone used icons with strange symbols and penises or uteruses.

I don't understand why Elvis should be upset at anyone. I found a post above where he called someone a beast. If he can call someone a beast then he can be called a beast too.

Beast. Mocker of blacks and southerners you are Elvis.

I'm really not going to bother with a poster pretending to be three. Nor am I going to entertain cheap attempts at feigning being offended - or for that matter what drugs allow one to see anything other than a trio of moons and a deer's head as part of my icon. No, Russ is not going to make me change it despite your juvenile attempts.

That being said, there were a few interesting comments for discussion mentioned earlier in this thread which I'd like to touch on.



If there are any laws within the multitude of countries on the European continent which have Biblical applications it is by sheer happenstance. If the bible says don't kill people and I erect such a law, it is not safe to assume I am practicing Biblical law. I'm just practicing moral law (your bible just happens to match some of my morals - nothing more, nothing less.) This is reinforced by the fact that a great many European countries (in fact, the most successful ones) are extremely gay tolerant. This is really something you need to consider in your argument, Russ. Gays can marry in some European countries and in others are widely accepted. You suggest that they are so successful because they are applying Biblical law to their legal structure - but what about the acceptance of gays? Of your own volition their economies should be teetering on the brink even now and be close to ruin but, on the contrary, the Euro grows stronger every day and the US dollar, unfortunately, is ever-crippling.

We were also talking about patriotism earlier on in this thread and the kind of evils it can bring about. Two quotes I'd like to share with you all - I couldn't've said them any better myself.


That last one was Albert Einstein.

I don't differentiate nationalism from patriotism. It's all primitive tribalism at its very worst. I can see what you mean, Linda, about your husband appreciating certain aspects of his homeland while also not being a devout flag-waver. Interestingly, in the US right now flags are raised above Taco Bell even - there was once a law preventing flags from being raised (so tastelessly I might add) above such instiutions. Flags were for government buildings, schools and people's front steps (though in the case of the latter it's beginning to get a bit frightening) I honestly feel I may be discriminated against or outrighted lynched for not placing the present day American swastika on my car: a yellow ribbon sticker. Interestingly, and perhaps enviously, a lot of my British friends have indicated that contrary to the U.S. where criticizing the government makes one considered a terrorist, in the U.K. you're actually not patriotic unless you do criticize and slander the current regime. It's like their God-given right as a Brit, as one friend of mine put it.

Since offensive posts have been removed please remove all counter-offensive from this camp.
No, anon, no mockery intended towards my black brethren or southereners. Do you know what my race even is?

Y'all are lucky to have someone vistin this forum a Pwcca's demeanor an intelligence offerin intellectual discourse an insight into other ways a thinkin.

Apologies to those who deserve it.

Well you can call your icon whatever you like but it is still offensiive and I am offended by it. It is clearly a female wiccan symbol mixed together with whatever other stuff you put in there to confuse the issue. But it is still clearly female sexuality in a perverse way despite the all other little tweaking you have done to it to make it mean other things too.

There is more information here for anyone that is interested:
http://www.crystalinks.com/triplegoddess.html

Yes I know your race, white trash.

Why are you even voicing an opinion when you won't permit others to voice theirs?

Whoa, nasty. How can you guys have the audacity to abuse the freedom to post here, by hurling insults at each other? Would you be doing that if you met face to face? Whatever we believe or say, we are all adults, not children squabbling on a playground -- though that's the tone things here are being reduced to.

Um, what's obscene about female genitalia? What's so immoral and unreligious about sex anyway? Some religions see sex as being sacred, or a form of enlightenment. You're offended by an abstract symbol that may or may not have some sexual connotations, when TV and magazines are full of people flashing their bits at you? What do you think sex is, some dirty secret thing that only married heterosexual couples are grudgingly allowed to engage in for the sake of the propagation of humanity?

It is not a Wiccan symbol specifically, no, though most within the Wiccan realm of faith will recognize it. If I had a symbol of a shepherd's staff it would not be safe to say it is a Christian symbol despite the potential associations. And I can't say I'm trying to “confuse the issue”, as you say, with my icon. Especially since I didn’t create it.



No tweaking. Haven't touched it.

The three moons are indicative of the three stages of womanhood: maiden, mother and crone; while the stag represents the male aspect. Nothing overtly sexual or even connoting sexual intercourse there. It sounds like you’re trying to interpret something from nothing.

Arguably speaking I could get offended at the Christian cross and/or crucifix, since the sight or mere suggestion of torture and bloodshed appall me. But that would be a bit overboard, as are your accusations. One thing's for sure: board admin aren't going to order me to remove the icon.

You're really reaching this time, So-Sick. Why do you call anyone white trash? Do you hate yourself so much you must resort to belittling others? I can’t imagine anyone having a problem with Elvis of all people – who is one of the most benign and friendly posters on this forum! Jeez.

I agree with those who have said that everyone who talks on this forum should have to register. OK it wouldn't stop well-known posters from coming here under a different ID and saying things they wouldn't wish to be associated with their other persona, but it might help. If a non-member of the forum has to register before they can spew bile on here they might decide it's too much trouble.

That beast? C'mon now.

Oh I see, you equate the Christian crosss with torture and bloodshed and turn a blind eye to wiccan rituals. Is that because wiccan rituals take place in the cover of darkness behind someone's house or on a dark road, like hit and run accidents? casting your little spells and calling on evil spirirt to burden people. That is so nice, you are so sweet.



go ahead keep it. Just remember it offends me.


Hate what you are trying to push is more like it. Very evil and I am not so sick. Quite healthy as a matter of fact.

And I did forget to mention that what your little icon represents to many people who worship that direction is a female screwing the giodof the underworld, otherwise known as the devil. I have known plenty of wiccans and pagans and have even observed their ceremonies and orgies as they do their screw satan bit.

Vulgar Pwcca.

Why don't you register here -- or are you ashamed to put a name to these childish insults?

Pwcca has explained what the symbol means and I think he would know better than anyone else here. Also you can caricature his religion all you like but how would you feel if someone did that to yours? He has also said several times that he is not a Wiccan. And Wiccans are not Satanists. I know Wiccans myself and they do not behave as if they are playing out scenes from grade-B schlock horror films.

The venom and immaturity on this thread are really depressing. What were we actually talking about? I forgot.

The evils of patriotism and the fact that European countries do not have a biblical framework to their legal system - despite statements toward the contrary.

I'm more or less done entertaining So-Sick's anonymous posting habits.

Oh right. Yes, I liked your earlier post about love for one's home, and patriotism/nationalism being different things. That's exactly what my husband believes. As an American it took me a little while to get used to this, it really gets programmed into you, but I think this way too now.

You don't get any British politicians claiming they are "patriotic." Nationalism leaves a bad taste in the mouth here in Europe; there have been too many wars fought in its name. There's a lot of uncertainty about what it even means to be British, or English. There's such a colourful history here. There were the Celts, the Romans, the Anglo-Saxons, the Vikings, the French . . . lots of different people fancied some conquest on these islands at one time or another, and there are so many layers of history and heritage. And now of course there are immigrants from Asia, Afria, eastern Europe . . . things change all the time. I think these changes are accommodated well here, and there's a strong sense of the value of multiculturalism on the whole. Though you do always get right-wing parties and newspapers raving about how we should kick the immigrants out.

I think this may be rather liberal for many of the tastes on this forum. It's a dirty word to lots of people. If I still lived in the USA I think I'd seek out my local branch of the ACLU and join them, and I'm not at all ashamed of that. Someone has to stand up for tolerance and human rights.

Thomas Jefferson said the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus is classed with the fable of the the generation of Minerva in the brain of jupiter and wrote that the history of the bible was defective and doubtful~evidence that parts have proceeded from an extraordinary man and that other parts are the fabric of very inferior minds.
In the Tripoli treaty Adams and Washington said that the govt of the US is not founded on the Christian religion.
Washington was a diest . According to the dictionary deism is a system of thought advocating natural religion based on human reason , not revelation that had nothing to do with christianity.
James Madison was an athiest . He wrote What are Chritianities fruits? ~in all places pride and indolence in the clergy , ignorance and servility in the laity;in both superstition bigotry and persecution.
The founding fathers never mentioned god in the constitution
The founding fathers were alot smarter than GW Bush Jr and the jolly green giant Al Gore and were'nt religious fanatics even before the advances in astronomy etc that make evolution obvious.

According to Zinn's "People's History of the US" there were at least thirty million Indians here. If they were'nt mass murdered by Europeans, why are there so many in Mexico and so few here?

You graduated in fine arts so-sick so when did you become an expert on the sciences necessary to understand evolution? Did'nt you say that you dropped out of college?
Cooper Union is not rated in the top ten in any science dept is it. Is it top ten in anything?Did anyone who ended up at Stanford or MIT apply to Cooper Union?Lindas right that college grads are a dime a dozen.MIT grads are'nt a dime a dozen and although there are exceptions to the rule ,if someone went to a third rate college I deon't want them as a lawyer , investment advisor etc.
I don't think there is anything wrong with the schools today .The problem is that the smartest women are having the fewest children.

When did you become an expert on me is probably a better question anon.

I haven't had a chance to read all the posts here but, Pwcca, something you might be interested in is the fact that even in my house, I won't put a crucifix/cross on the wall. I know that to a lot of Christians it represents Jesus' sacrifice, and yea, it does, but to me it also represents a lot of really bad things done by people who called themselves christians but were not, so I don't want it in my house. It also represents a lot of evil things done by satanists who have perverted it.

I don't need it it my house. I understand Jesus' sacrifce for me, and I have a relationship with him, I don't need a piece of wood to prove it or sustain it. Your magick things, your potions, whatever, they have no power either yet you serve them and believe they help you. But there is no life in them, they are dumb objects. Our God is a living God, and you are one of his greatest treasures. That is one of the most important things to know.

Abstract art is too hard too sell. I used to make a living doing nothing else so I had to sell. The very realistic paintings always get top spot in the gallery windows and only take about 3 days to sell. I've been doing it since I was a kid, started selling portraits at the age of 14, it's a living, I'm good at that and even though it's not the most creative stuff I have ever seen either, people love it. Photos don't really do a a painting justice, loses a lot of the subtleties and brilliance of color. I like abstract art a lot too though, simply too hard for me to sell, that's all.

I don't think Pwcca is worshipping potions. In fact potion-making belongs more to Harry Potter than any real religious practice.

Can you find me a religion that doesn't use obejcts to some degree, as tools in ceremonies or prayer? In churches do you not see a cross and an altar? Does the reverend/minister.priest not wear ceremonial clothes? Do you not read or sing from a missal or psalter or hymn book? No one is worshipping these objects in themselves.

Why not ask Pwcca about what he actually believes and does, before making assumptions? There is info about his religion on the internet; in a couple of minutes you can get a basic idea. It seems strange to criticise something without knowing anything about it first.

BTW these last few posts from you are quite restrained SoSick. It's refreshing not to see lots of insults. Thank you and I hope this is a trend for the future.

I do try not to be an armchair critic. It's so funny though I cannot help laughing.

Just open your eyes a moment at statements like 'your art is so banal, not creative' ha ha ha. It's so funny, that was from someone who is trying a bit too hard to be an Elvis Presley imitation. I don't know why no one sees it it goes on in 25 different directions on and on all day. it's so funny i am sorry but it really is. heh. i don't know life, God, has been very good to me what can I say. Praise God, that works.

everybody wants to go to heaven but nobody wants to die.

oh well.

You are God's greatest treasure too Linda.

Just keep that thought in the back of your mind and it will turn your life around.

That, is not a joke.

be blessed in Him.

Depends on what it's like there.


I fully accept that life and death are part of nature. If I wanted a very long life then I think I would have the responsibility to make sure I made it worthwhile by contributing to humanity in some way and not just being an ageing waste of space.

I will never die. I am quite sure.

But the word die has different meanings, as in 'die to yourself'' also. Death to the old man birth to the new man etc.

Here's a tune for ya.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljvU3er8HYs

well actually i think I did die about 11 or 12 years ago but he keeps lifting me up and making me walk.

You are probably talking to the living dead. living undead, whatever. Pretty cool His breath in my lungs, quite real. It surely is not mine I wasn't born with that. Kind of why you'll never a convince a Christian otherwise.

That's your new church btw. They are nice kids.

He's got this other one I like a lot too:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lnXYxevk-ak

Linda, the testimony of this woman will interest you a lot:

http://www.sidroth.org/site/News2?a...mp;amp;id=6609&news_iv_ctrl=1121

BORING!

Anon, couldn't have expressed this any better. Who the hell are these freaks. All of you get off your lazy arses and get a job in Government. Then you can blast each other to bits. Hopefully literally. BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH The same old crap. Anon you have a brain and are at least using it for some positive stuff, these people have really lost the plot.

yep!. i thought id look into general health questions and answers and look what i got, YAWN!
i dont know how you can respond to each others posts, its brain deadening, worse than mercury.

SoSICK YOU ARE ONE SICK I HAVE JUST LOST MY SISTER AND YOU COME OUT WITH THIS YOU SHOULD BE IN A MENTAL INSTITUTION YOU STUPID AND UP YOURSELF SELF CENTRED

Well, considering the fact that so much of modern psychology is nothing more than an attempt to deny the spiritual experiences of humanity, I am not surprised to hear that coming from you Tracy, considering your background.

But listen, you go ahead and scream and curse at me hysterically while I sit here calmly and we'll get a better picture of it all.

You do have a filthy mouth has anyone ever told you that?

Why do you feel you have lost your sick sister when she is with God and you have been given repeated testimony to that effect?

"well actually i think I did die about 11 or 12 years ago but he keeps lifting me up and making me walk.

You are probably talking to the living dead. living undead, whatever. Pretty cool His breath in my lungs, quite real. It surely is not mine I wasn't born with that. Kind of why you'll never a convince a Christian otherwise " Thats what Im referring to Sosick and thats suppose to make sense to anyone? I have afilthy mouth? Hello my sister just passed away because she didn't have the ability to breathe by herself. How do you think that crap make s me feel? You Sosick can breathe perfectly by yourself you don't need any intervention or help. Explain this to me , because I truly don't understand a word of it. Maybe it's your , interpretation of some intervention from God, read it back to yourself and if you can come up with a rational explanation of your words, I/ll be the first t o apologise as usuual. But if you had just lost a loved one because they wanted to live so badly and couldn't breathe how would you feel reading this. Maybe I am interpreting it wrong I don't know. All I know is it made me so angry and cry so much. Why do you say I have a dirty mouth, see that questions my outlook on your sanity. I've never had a dirty mouth, so explain this also , because I am lost as to where this came from. You give me arational esplanation for these remarks and as I say as always I'll apologise for being wrong, but I don't see one at the moment. Tracy bY THE WAY WHAT DO YOU MEAN ABOUT MY BACKGROUND YOU REALLY SHOULD BE BANNED FROM HIS FORUM AND IM NOT THE ONLY ONE WHO THINKS SO YOU THINK YOU KNOW EVERYTHING AND BELITTLE EVERYONE ELSE

oh and by the way the sister I just lost, well her grandaugter just got ran over and her poor mother had to go back to the hospital her darling mother recently passed away in and her daughters leg is so badly injured shes had to have a plate fitted in it. Is this part of Gods plan?

Maybe, how should I know? Have you ever considered asking him? If it happened to me like that though I'd surely figure I was way outside of God's plan for my life.

Funny you should question my sanity. I'm an artist, I'm suppose to be at least half crazy. What's your excuse?

Far as the rest goes I figure a lot of the time non-Christians don't comprehend a lot of what I say because I am God's creation and they are decended from monkeys. Other Christians usually comprehend me pretty well so it's definitely not a problem there.

It's not always about you, you know. Maybe take your own advice and go read something else. Maybe throw your psych books in the trash and the demons will follow. There are some good churches in GB that do deliverance, you can ask them about the things you question me on. They can show you firsthand. Otherwise, heal yourself, counselor.

Have a nice day, Tracy.

Right, I know. I am the one of the devil's worst enemies and I am aware I bring out the worst in you.

But chances are excellent you'll thank me someday.

Wasn't it you Tracy who said at some point that your grandparents or something were gypsy fortune tellers or something like that? well if it was, find a good church that does rock solid deliverance and take the whole family. You are probably living under a curse of some sort whether or not you want to believe it. Every member of your family will suffer these things if you don't break the stronghold that's ruining your lives. As they say, things run in the family. But Jesus can take care of it if you let him.

Dear Sosick I can only apologise for my ouburst yet again, I wsh you hd known me before I became ill. I was such aplacid person. The times in the last three years Ive said to my partner I dont even know who I am any more. Its truly not my nature. I dont know why I get these outbursts they just come, then I feel so stupid. I am truly sorry. I honestly dont care about anyones beliefs or anything. I am so ill, still waiting for my results, vomiting contiuosly, incontinent and passing blood. What a life. My Grandma was aRomany Gipsy and several people this year have told me they believe in this curse business which can go back years. I dont know. I do know someone wh has told me they are prepared to visit and see what they feel and try to remove it. But sometimes you just wonder if any of this could be real or are you going steadily bonkers yourelf! Anyway I am really sorry, never mean to offend people. Never apologised so much in the last three years. Best luck to you, I would be interested if you do truly belive in these things. Tracy

Right, I cannot recall ever being anything but nice to you Tracy and I truly do sympathise with what you are going through. I know sometimes are you are nice as can be and other days, completely off the handle.

Most sincerely, there was a day when even I thought evil was just a concept. But I was wrong, it took Jesus to show me the truth, and what a truth, and how it had been devastating my life for so many years too. Truly I do sympathise, I have a pretty good idea of what you are going through and because of everything you have told us over the months there isn't a speck of doubt in my mind as to the source.

You know, when you hear the saying, 'Jesus sets you free', this is exactly what it's referring to... free from the bondage of spiritual junk/evil that ruins our lives and separates us from God. I have a pretty good relationship with him by now and he has shown me lots but like most people, I still have a bit of a problem with sin in my life which is most likely how I ended up here because it isn't normal for me to be sick and he has actually healed me of many things... I have literally felt his hands move through me and fix things, not a joke. But you know, every so often I think I still question God's authority too much, don't trust him fully enough, and I have always had this obnoxious problem of a few too many men in my life which I am trying very hard to deal with though I fail from time to time. So quite a bit of sin here and I pay the price. All I can say in that regard is that I am still a work in progress.

But, there was a similar curse on my life also, call it whatever you want I guess but the end effect was pretty much the same. And Jesus broke that curse, made the devil flee from me, and that, thankfully has never returned, I don't think it ever will, and the blessing of what he did for me extends to my daughter and beyond. I cannot even begin to tell you what the devil was doing to my mind. Jesus gave me my life back, and despite the sin still in it, I have had peace ever since. I do believe that that peace is the result of my relationship with God, again despite the sin that remains in my life, which I am getting a lot better at dealing with btw, He gives me lots of help these days, sends angels even, really.

There was a British evangelist guy by the name of Derek Prince who worked a lot in this area, you might consider picking up one of his books. I think he passed away a few years ago but there were people who worked with him and they remain. There are also a few charismatic/pentecostal churches here and there who deal with this type of thing pretty well. Prince used the word 'exorcism' and personally I am not sure I would approach a church that claimed to do that specifically, I prefer the approach of pentecotal/charismatic 'deliverance'. They pray over you real hard, in numbers, and it's pretty powerful. They help build your faith. Unless your faith is already rock solid you'll need the support of a good church family because going through this is a pretty rough road and I don't recommend you go it alone.

But in the meantime I will refer you to the same website I referred Linda. You might want to start listening here when you have a chance:

http://www.sidroth.org/site/News2?a...;security=1042&news_iv_ctrl=1185

I have seen many people set free by now Tracy, and again there was day when even I was a doubter, in the reality of evil not of God which a little bit of difference between you and I, but still I wasn't easy to convince. It's essential that you want to be healed though, you can't be healed of things you cling to, and I do hate to say it but the psychology and doubting of God is a big problem in that area.

Try this radio message also, might be a little bit more to the point for you:

http://www.sidroth.org/site/News2?a...;security=1042&news_iv_ctrl=1184

I'm here if you need help with it, just holler. I don't know everything but I can help quite a bit.

Dear Sosick its not my doubting of God so much, but my change of personality which worries me. I know its hard to believe but until I became ill i never judged anyone, whatever their religion race or mental state. Its weird because until a few days ago I truly believed my sister was with God so why have the doubts started creeping in again? I dont know. I had along with my sisters the most vilest of chilhoods imaginable. If evil does exist my mum is it. She put and still is putting us through the most severe mental cruelty. How any of us 4 girls managed to raise our children with love is beyond me. If I wrote a book about what we were put through everday of our lives I dont think people would believe it. I truly mean no one on this Earth any malice, just want to get well again and live a normal life. Not rich, wharever just normal . Do you know my sister died because of emotional asthma caused by my parents and they dont care. I say I feel no malice, but I suppose thats a lie yes I do towards them. Peace, I know you mean well, by the way artists arnt crazy just different, arnt we all. Tracy x

Yea my mom too Tracy. I hate going there in my thoughts even, I know it sounds terrible to say but she died a few years ago praise God. My dad is great though, my brother has become ok over the years, I have two sisters one is kind of ok one rather very messed up still. That's actually why I started drawing as a kid, it was my one escape and when her friends praised me for it she treated me better. She was a total control freak yelling screaming all day long, constant threats of this or that. At the point she died our relationship was pretty much completely in the dirt.

I think until you actually experience Jesus you will have doubts, everyone does. But that changes in about one minute flat. I don't see hat you have anything to lose by heading that direction, just everything to gain. I had a real good friend sort of saw me through the early stages, don't know what I would have done without him, I experienced some very strange stuff, he took me to his church etc, I was actually afraid to go to church back then i felt like a total freak.

I had to let go of a lot of stuff I 'thought' I knew, my education... learned stuff, a lot of lies I realized once I had that encounter with God/Jesus, and it was keeping me from really being set free. I lost a lot in the process, worldly things, my career etc all went down the tubes. But, what happened over the next few years after that, took about 5 years actually, was a slow process, but he turned my life around and gave me so much more than I had before and the comfort of knowing that he's right there with me in it, even when I fail still. I used to call Jesus 'the garbage man'... in a good way i mean that, he took so much crap out of my life, made me dump egads, and gave me so much truth, love and peace in return.

My mom was diagnosed with cancer about 4 months after she began telling my daughter who was about 3-4 years old at the time, that there was no such thing as Jesus or the holy spirit. She struggled with sickness/chemo for several years and died in 2004. We had a freak late spring snowstorm here the very morning we were suppose to leave, 6-10 inches and couldn't even get off the mountain to go to the funeral service. You don't drive off this mountain in snow, it's a lot of cliffs all around. I didn't want to go, I think God even helped me with a reason there.

Yea mom was a hard case. She would literally become violent when I tried talking to her about Jesus. But, still, it's important to forgive.