I'm slowly working my way towards having Dental Revision. I have 9 amalgams and possibly one more under an old crown. I have already had MELISA testing which shows extremely strong allergy to Mercury, allergy to Lead and Cobalt and weak allergy to Gallium. Unfortunately I find this is little help in deciding on the actual choice of Dental Materials as many manufacturers do not fully disclose ingredients. Although it does simplify things to the extent that my level of toxicity is irrelevant to the decision of whether to replace the amalgams or not. As I am extremely allergic they MUST come out!

I am now wanting to gather info/opinions on compatibility testing. I cannot find any Australian Labs that do this testing. (Note I am located in Perth Western Australia). From reading on this site and elsewhere the two labs most often mentioned are Scientific Health Solutions (Dr Levy) and Clifford Consulting & Research (Walter Jess Clifford). Is it possible to have samples taken here in Australia and sent to the USA for testing? How exactly is this done and how much does it cost?

I see little point continuing to search for a Dentist who does the necessary protocols until I have some idea what materials I might be compatible with.Most dentists here will not even tell you what materials they use unless you make an appointment and incur several hundred dollars in fees! Even when I do find out what they use the Dentist is unaware of the composition of the materials used and expects me to make enquiries and tell them if it is OK to use on me. Also most seem pretty inflexible about the choices they offer in the way of materials as well. Certainly NONE of the local Dentists are aware of, never mind familiar with, Serum Testing and would not be able to interpret test results. This is why I need the kit & report sent to me.

So I am seeking feedback from others who have had their testing done at either of these Labs and as I probably can't afford to do both I need to make a decision about which one to go with?Is one more reliable/comprehensive/easier to understand/better value for money?

Another concern for me is whether the Trade Names data base they use even relevant to Australia. There would be no point in paying for a test and getting recommendations for products unavailable in my country.

So any comments and/or info regarding the points raised would be most helpfull.

One of the first things you should do is find a mercury free dentist close to home. If the dentist is mercury free (a biological dentist), he will know all about mercury and the problems it causes, that’s presumable the reason he is mercury free. He will also know various people close by to help out and also get the required tests done. There are other methods of testing to, muscle testing for example, (Applied Kinesiology) which I used and has been fine. (I cannot comment on serum testing as I have not had that done.)

Re specific products and if they are any good?….thats why you need to test to see they are suitable for YOU. Serum or muscle testing will work.

I was tested for 50 different products and I was ok for 30, but no good for 20.

I am half way through removal and I’m having “Cerec” and “Grandio.”

My muscle tester was £50, and I also got a second opinion for another muscle tester and that was £30.

I saw 3 different dentists in my search to gather information and find the right dentist. I had 2 appointments with each and I asked lots and lots of questions. I think 1 guy charged me for one appointment. If they are far away, I’m sure you can telephone them. If they laugh or don’t know sh$t then they are not for you in any case.

I have 7 amaglam’s to replace. I need 2 inlays which are very expensive @ $700 a pop. £2500 in total.

Hello LL:

I looked at my old bills, and I see $150 for the compatibility Report, and a $15 priority mailing fee. Not bad, but I remember I had to pay out of pocket for blood testing and shipping from a local hospital that cost me $170 and shipping fee. Hopefully you will be covered by insurance?

The report itself lists out many products as highly, moderately or least reactive, but for more information, you may want to call them. Ask them specifically if they test a product you are considering.

I felt it was valuable enough to do this, and am glad I did, but I can not tell you how they compare to others, better or worse. Good luck with this... whatever you choose. Maybe you could let everyone know later what seemed to be your best choice!

Scientific Health Solutions, Inc.
1621 North Circle Drive
Colorado Springs, Colorado 80909
(719) 548-1600

TW

Dear Sunshine P
Thanks for your quick response. There are no Biological Dentists registered in Western Australia at all. There are plenty of "metal free" dentists ( including my previous 2 Dentists) but very few if any know about the protocols for removing amalgams. Of those that are aware I have yet to find one who does all the protocols. So Mercury Free and Biological Dentistry is not the same at all. Further there is no Australian Lab that does the Serum Biocompatibilty Testing with cross referencing to actual Trade Names of dental materials. Also no one in Perth does muscle testing as a method of testing. There is very limited access to EAV(electro dermal testing) for Dental Materials used by one particular dentist. I had it and guess what I am supposedly compatible with every single material that dentist uses! I have very little faith in that testing and would prefer Serum Testing hence my previous post. I certainly don't want Fluoride and Estrogen leaching materials that supposedly the EAV said was OK for me! I do appreciate you sharing the info you did.

Dear Tumbleweed,

Thanks for your info. Are the prices you quoted in US$ or AUS$ and how long ago did you have the tests done? If you had it done outside of the USA wherabouts are you located and how long did it take to get the tests results back? Unfortunately none of these types of tests are covered by any Austalian medical insurance. The MELISA testing I had done cost over AUS$1000 and I have already spent a further about AUS$400 on dental consults and X-rays as well (about half covered by insurance).

LL:

US $$, test done about year and a half ago, and I am located in US. I think the shipment must be kept cool, and that is a long ways to travel for your test, so I would call them during business hours and see what they recommend.

TW

Dear Tumbleweed
Thanks again. I've worked out that there is 15hours difference between Perth and Colorado so it is difficult for me to phone either Lab in business hours. I have emailed both Labs but have yet to get a response.
Other readers/members I would like more feedback on the tests these two Labs offer.

Mercury and lead are poisons, not allergens. Does'nt serum testing just show allergies? Also, you might react to a substance in a year or more, after it builds up in your system , even if you don't react immediately.
Don't we have a legal as well as moral right to know if our dental materials have barium, formaldehyde, aluminum , phenol arsenic etc and if so how much? Excuse me I must have forgotten that our parents were'nt told our "silver" fillings had mercury.
If the dentist wont disclose their materials over the phone I would go in and then refuse to pay.
I think "muscle testing" just shows there are as many crooks in alternative dentistry as in mainstream dentistry.
Have you considered gold fillings Lethally ?You get greater EMF exposure from your computer.

I have heard that scientific health solutions seems to be more thorough/accurate.

Here is a message by a lady on a curezone forum that I've copied and pasted.


I advise patients who "seem to be allergic to everything" to get this test if they are concerned, but anyone can get it. Personally, I have spoke at length with two different companies and feel the test performed by Scientific Health Solutions, Inc. is superior in it's thoroughness of testing.

This testing utilizes a serum blood specimen in a sophisticated fashion to help determine on an individual basis what one's "least toxic" replacement dental materials might be. The term "least toxic" is used here because all foreign substances introduced into the body will provoke the immune system of the patient to some degree. As the body's protector, the immune system wouldn't really be doing its job if this didn't happen to some degree.

.... The report, which is over 30 pages in length, lists in categories of "Highly Reactive," "Moderately Reactive," and "Least Reactive" over 1,000 different dental products, including composite fillings, crown materials, bridge materials, cements, denture materials, and other materials. Nearly all reports have some materials in the "Least Reactive" categories from which the dentist may choose.

For more information, and to arrange for your own serum biocompatibility testing:


Scientific Health Solutions, Inc.
1621 North Circle Drive
Colorado Springs, Colorado 80909
Operating Hours: M-F, 8:00 am to 5:00 pm Mountain Time.
(800) 331-2303 or (719) 548-1600
FAX: (719) 572-8081
Please be patient when you call and leave a message if you do not get through to a staff member. All messages, except late on Friday, will be addressed by return phone call promptly either the same day, or early the next day. Please speak slowly and clearly, especially when leaving your telephone number. Thank you. http://tomlevymd.com/

TO THE PATIENT: PLEASE FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS COMPLETELY....

1. Order our testing kit via telephone.

2. While the patient is waiting for our package to arrive they need to find a laboratory that can draw and centrifuge a blood serum sample for us. The easiest way to find this lab is to look in the yellow pages of the phone book under laboratories....

3. Once the patient has received our testing kit and has found a lab the next step is to fill out our order form. The Compat 306 test produces our SHORT report as it only covers materials needed for filling replacements. The Compat 307 test produces our COMPLETE report and covers materials required for fillings, dentures, orthodontics, crowns and bridges. There is not a specific category on the test for implant and root canal materials. The patient will only need one or the other test; both are not necessary.

4. Before going to the lab the patient MUST FAST FOR 10 HOURS. (PLEASE NOTE: this is very important. If the patient has not fasted he or she can have incorrect test results or the blood may have to be redrawn.)

5. Go to the lab with the test kit and have the blood drawn. The lab will draw and centrifuge and freeze the serum sample for several hours. Have the patient ask the lab tech when he or she needs to return to pick-up the sample. (PLEASE NOTE: Patient will have to pay the laboratory charges for the blood draw and centrifuge....

6. The patient then needs to return to the lab and pick-up the entire testing kit, with our order form(s) inside, and take it to an overnight express mail service. That service can be FedEx, UPS, Express Mail by the USPS, or Airborne Express. Any outfit will work fine as long as the package is delivered overnight next day. (PLEASE NOTE: Patient will have to pay for the overnight shipping of the package. It is not included in our fee for the test.) Also be aware that some labs may require that they do the shipping, and the patient will have to pay that charge.

7. Please overnight specimens only on Monday through Thursday. You or the laboratory can keep the specimen frozen until it can be mailed if drawn on a Friday, weekend, or holiday without any damage to the specimen.

8. Results will be sent 1st class mail to the patient or the designated dentist or physician. The test turn-around time is about two to two and a half weeks. We suggest having the patient schedule the next dental appointment no sooner than three weeks after the day they have sent us the blood serum specimen.

Jill, it tests immune reactivity. I dont know of anybody YET who has come up "ok" with lead or mercury on this testing.

I think it is only part of the equation. The more testing a person can do, the better to narrow things down further, but again who knows how accurate any of them are? I have had contradictions from tests.

It's hard to know what to believe. I had testing done on one bio com machine and had contradictory results depending on who was operating it. I even had one operator tell me I was reactive with some composites in my mouth but not others. The ones she picked that were reactive, were exactly the same as the others she said were ok....I was furious and when I mentioned it, I got an offhand evasive response from an obviously irritated operator.

So I tend to go from the serum testing first and then from there I try out other tests and try and find a material that most seem to agree on. Which is not easy.

So much greed in this business too.

Hi Bex and Jill:

Good points and information. I agonized a bit over whether the material used on me was the best material, as it seems pretty stupid to put something bad in when your mouth should have no bad materials in it, and you just removed mercury. Then you find out later, there is a questionable item like bisphenol A used. And, as Jill says, you might not react until much later.

That is why everyone misses mercury, the time lag and insidious symptoms prevent most from recognizing the connection. The point I think I want to make, in hindsight, is get your compatibility report, give it to your dentist, and let him tell you what he is going to use first! Then, get online, and look at the Material Safety Data Sheets, and see if anything might be a problem.

Problem is there is not a lot of other options out there. And once I felt strongly it was mercury, I was in a big hurry to get that garbage out of my mouth. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> And garbage it is, think about it, they knew in the 1800s about this, how crazy to put a poison in anyone's mouth. Sheer brilliance, heh???? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

TW

Hi LethalLee

The mercury removal protocol’s, like Andy Cutler’s, are down to you.

There really is no substitute for educating yourself about all this mercury stuff (which you are obviously in the process of doing). You cannot rely on dentists or doctors because they give the wrong information after little or no research and then you pay the price with your health.
I guess almost all the veterans on these mercury forums know that from painful experience, I know I do.

I’m with a mercury free dentist of 15 years and he has never heard of Andrew Cutler!
Last appointment he suggested removing amalgams from two quadrants at the same sitting, “to get it all over and done with quickly!” This is truly tempting as I really want to get this crap out of me, but from what I’ve learned these past 8 months, why take the chance when so many people get screwed up by doing just that. IMHO dentist’s are dentist’s, they look after teeth, they don’t look after your health, that’s up to you.

http://www.naturaltherapypages.com.au/practitioners/Kinesiology/region/Perth

The substances I mentioned such as barium ,formaldehyde ,bisphenol A, etc are toxic to everyone regardless of what any test indicates and should not be in anyone's mouth.
The immune system is only one part of the body.I think it's a wate of money to get these tests.

The immune system is a very LARGE part, why would these tests then be a waste of time? Isn't it better to find one part of the body, that reacts ok to these things? Sure there are certain substances that one should always try to avoid, but consider what is in every dental material and then attempting to avoid one thing and then finding your exposed to another.

I dont think we know enough about all other poisons as to be sure they are preferable to the ones you mentioned. It is all chancey, but I would rather have the serum test done at least to narrow it down a little. I do not know how accurate it is no, but from what I see, it appears to be pretty accurate in my regard.

Do you know of any dental material that does not contain the chemicals you have mentionied aside from Gold? because for those of us who cannot afford gold, we may not have much choice. Or we leave the amalgams in place.

I don't think that most porcelains have bisphenol-A formaldehyde, arsenic , barium or any other really nasty chemicals. Different composites have different components so some are probably less toxic.Who says it's necessary to have these chemicals in composites and why do we accept the idea that we can't have benign materials.
I don't think these serum compatibility tests are even good immune reaction tests..

I know what you're saying, it's trying to pick the lesser of many evils. These tests may well be a waste of time and money, but you can see the desperation of people. You reach a point where you become almost paranoid and grab at anything.

At onetime I was quite careless about these things, but once my health hit rock bottom, I look back and wish I had done things far more carefully.

I would probably tend to go for the more up-to-date porcelains like cerec, but again I still dont know what affect that will have on me. It looks promising, but nothing is a sure thing.

The fact is it's harder and more stable than amalgam or composites, but that's not to say nobody is going to react to it. The problem are the older style ones that they put in with metal bases that can sometimes cause problems for people. THe other worry is the aluminium in porcelain, yet I hear that the newer ones like cerec are not such a problem in this area. They are not quite like the old ones and do not have metal bases needed.

Thanks everyone for all the info so far. Has anyone had either of the Cliffords or Scientific Health tests recently - say in the last 6 to 12 months? Can you advise when and how much (please indicate what currency you are using) it cost you?

Bex I had already come accross that Bikerchick's info in the Curezone Forum. She also says -

"Hal Huggins invented the ORIGINAL SERUM BIOCOMPATIBILITY TEST. He and Walter Clifford once worked together. They later had a falling out and Clifford went off on his own. He made his own test based on the same blood test but he was only able to obtain partial disclosure from the dental product companies as to the ingredients. Hal Huggins had full disclosure, but they only were willing to give it to one person. Hal Huggins has since sold his test to Dr. Levy. Dr Levy’s company is Scientific Health Solutions (SHS) which has purchased the laboratory operation previously owned by Peak Energy Performance(PEP). Hal Huggin’s confirmed that Scientific Health Solutions (SHS) has full disclosure from the dental product companies as to ingredients in Dental Materials. Walter Clifford’s has confirmed that Clifford Consulting & Research Inc (Clifford Consulting) - Clifford Materials Reactivity Testing (CMRT) only has partial disclosure from the dental product companies as to the ingredients in Dental Materials. Walter is a nice person and he that he feels his test is adequate"

However I think that this statement was made a couple of years back. Do you (or anyone else ) know if that is still the case? Obviously if SHS test has full disclosure I would probably go with their test.

I have a reply to the email I sent to Cliffords. Here is the email I sent -
"I am currently considering Dental Revision and became aware of your Serum Compatibility test via the Herb Allure Dental Amalgam Forum. I have already had MELISA testing which shows extremely strong allergy to Mercury, allergy to Lead and Cobalt and weak allergy to Gallium. Unfortunately I find this is little help in deciding on choice of Dental Materials as many manufacturers do not fully disclose ingredients. I am therefore seeking more info on your testing. I cannot find any Australian Labs that do this testing. I am located in Perth Western Australia. Is it possible to have samples taken here and sent to you for testing? How exactly is this done and How much would it cost? (nb. I have read all the info on your site) I would like to arrange to have both the test kit and the test results sent to me directly. I have limited options regarding Dentists. The two I have used in the past decade do not use any protocols so I will not be using them. I have recently consulted two other Dentists. The first does limited protocols but did not want to do my revision. The second does more of the protocols but only uses specific Dental Materials. I see little point considering using this Dentist or continuing to search for another until I have some idea what materials I might be compatible with. Most dentists will not even tell you what materials they use unless you make an appointment and incur several hundred dollars in fees! Even when I do find out what they use the Dentist doesn't know the composition/materials used and expects me to make enquiries and tell them if it is OK to use on me. Certainly NONE of the local Dentists are aware of, never mind familiar with, Serum Testing and would not be able to interpret test results. This is why I need the kit & report sent to me. Can you also tell me if the Trade Name products you advise on suitability are ones commonly available to Australian dentists? I have come across the DRM Diamond range mentioned favourably for compatibility on several Internet sources but so far have been unable to find any local dentist that uses their products. I would appreciate any advice in that area if you are aware of local Dentists who use it? I look forward to hearing from you soon."

And here is their reply-

"Thank you for your inquiry. The Clifford Materials Reactivity Test is an Antibody screening test and looks for systemic sensitivities to dental products. In Australia the two sources that we could point you to are the IAOMT Australian Chapter www.asomat.com which can be accessed through Dr Roman Lohyn or Dr Robert Gammal.

Dr. Roman Lohyn
175 Collins St. 8th Floor
Melbourne 3000
T: 011-61-3-9650-1660
lohyn@melbpc.org.au

Dr. Robert Gammal
40 Duffield Rd.
102/ 222 Pitt Street
Sydney 2000
New South Wales
T: 011-61-2-9264-5195
Robert@visionthang.com

The IAOMT (International Academy of Oral Medicine and Toxicology) helps train and educate medical professionals. They would be a very good source for dental referrals. Also in Australia is a dentist, Dr Nigel Cluer, that we have worked with and is familiar with our testing. DrCluer can be reached at:

Brunswick Heads Holistic Dental Centre
6/18 Mullumbimbi St.
Brunswick heads
NSW 2483
02-6685-1742

Your last request about trade names is a little harder for us to answer. The Clifford Materials Reactivity Test is started and is still based out of the United States. The Products listed can be order internationally,however, we do know that there are some products in other countries that are not available in the US and may not be on the test. Once you have found a dentist that you feel comfortable with for your dentistry, they can request a testing kit for you. The request does need to come from the Professional's office for legal reasons here in the US. Getting the results sent directly too you will not be too difficult. There is two ways to get this accomplished. You can have your dentist's office request that results be sent to you either when the kit is order or when you send the sample back to us. We always send two copies of the results. The other way is to have you fill out a form that can be included with the test kit that requests one of the two copies be sent to you. The testing kits will come with packaging materials to get the sample back to us for testing as well as prepaid FedEx return shipping materials and an order form that will need to be field out and sent in with the sample. Please let us know if you have any questions regarding this information."

My comments on reply -
-they have not answered my enquiry re costs at all
-they have not answered my enquiry re Diamond product range at all
-they will not deal with you directly but require the Dentist to request the kit which will be sent not to you but to the Dentist
-why do they do this?They say it is due to USA legal requirements but Scientific Health Solutions will send both the kit and results direct to you and does not require Dentist Referral/Request?
- the results will be sent to the Dentist (together with a second copy for the patient unless the Dentist agrees to request that the second copy be sent to you)
-their response to my statement in my email that no local dentist has experience or familiarity with the testing and will not know how to interpret results is to suggest 1 Dentist who lives thousands of miles away?

So in order to do their testing requires
-an appointment with the Dentist to advise them you want a test
-they don't explain how the Dentist is supposed to do this? They can't ring due to the 15 hour time zone difference. Our business hours 9am to 5pm are 6am to 2am USA time. Very few Dentists have internet access, websites or even email addresses?
-assuming I can find one who can arrange to get a kit somehow another appointment will be required to collect the kit
- another appointment needed with my GP to get referral (Dentists don't do that in Australia) to Path Lab to have blood drawn, go to Lab get blood drawn, return to Lab when sample processed, arrange for collection by courier for transport of sample to Lab in USA
-wait for phone call from Dentist's office that results received
-another appointment with Dentist in order to get a copy of the results which I would have to explain/interpret to them anyway
-may well have to find another Dentist if the most suitable materials are not offered by that dentist (most likely scenario as explained in original email Dentists here offer limited choice of dental materials)

All of which means that the cost of doing the Cliffords test will be doubled if not tripled by the cost of appointments required to comply with their procedural requirements? Not to mention that it will take probably 2-3 months to organise? Usually 2-3 week wait to schedule Dental appointments and about 7-10 days to schedule a GP appointment. Then add transport time to USA, Lab processing time and postage time to receive results?

Its a 'Catch-22' situation. Need the results in order to make a decision as to who is a "suitable Dentist". Need a Dentist in order to get tested and get the results?!?!?

I thought the idea was to empower the patient/consumer by providing them with the information needed to make an informed educated decision about their own health care? Not to put additional procedural and financial obstacles in their way? By the way none of the test, lab or transport costs will be covered by either Medicare or private medical insurance in this country. Needless to say I will be emailing Cliffords about all the above points.

Comments responses anyone please?

Most people don't produce antibodies to mercury but mercury can kill you.
They say the manufacturers fully dsiclosed the ingredients. Will they fully disclose these ingredients and if not why not?

Here is what I've found out so far.

Scientific Health Solutions (SHS) - [color:"red"][/color]US$250 test cost + US$20 for an additional copy. Will take order, ship test kit and send results direct to client (or Dentist or Doctor). Lab costs to draw & prepare sample at patients expense. Transport costs to ship to SHS Lab from your location at patients expense. If unable to transport within 24 hours shipping with dry ice is required (additional costs for dry ice & suitable dry ice shipping box). FedEx is the preferred courier or UPS if FedEx inconvenient or unavailable.

Clifford Consulting & Research Inc (Cliffords Lab) - test costs [color:"red"] [/color] US$335 will supply 2 copies of report. Requires 'Health Professional' to order test kit. 'Health Professional' can be your Dentist, GP or Nutritional Doctor. Will send test kit and copy of report directly to patient if specifically requested at time of order. The 'Health Professional' can place an order by email, phone (recorded message service) or by dedicated fax. One copy of the report is always sent to the requesting 'Health Professional' . Lab costs to draw & prepare sample at patients expense. Transport costs to ship to Cliffords Lab from your location with Fed Ex INCLUDED in fee. No mention of requirement for dry ice but freezing of sample and chill packs is required. FedEx is the preferred courier. No alternative courier is suggested.

I have found a local path lab - Clinipath - willing to draw blood and do the serum preparation. They advise no Doctors referral is required just detailed explicit instructions from the Lab for blood draw & required preparation. So no problems there and cost is minimal only AU$30-40 [color:"red"] [/color]

But here is the major stumbling block!

There is a local FedEx office at my location in Perth Western Australia. Enquiries with FedEx revealed the following. Quote to ship frozen sample from Perth to Colorado Springs is AU$120. However FedEx Perth will not handle DRY ICE(as SHS stated was essential) shipments of whatever size from Perth at allbut they will do so from either Sydney or Melbourne ONLY. There is no UPS office (SHS stated alternative courier) at my location so can't use them.

So made two further enquiries:-

DGM Australia - recommended minimum 9kg of dry ice for the estimated 2-3 day transit time (not the 1.5-2kg suggested by SHS detailed instructions). Cost to supply ice + packaging, pack and transport from Perth (provided I delivered sample from Lab direct to their office would be [color:"red"] [/color]AU$1000 .

World Courier - the company used by Clinipath to do dry ice within Australia also quoted.They also recommended minimum 9kg of dry ice for the estimated 2-3 day transit time (not the 1.5-2kg suggested by SHS detailed instructions). Their cost [color:"red"] [/color] AU$1500!?!

Alternatively cost to use one of above to ship from Perth to FedEx's Sydney Office ONLY would be DGM [color:"red"] [/color] AU$360 or World Courier [color:"red"] [/color] AU$250. Add FedEx quote from Sydney to Colorado Springs of [color:"red"] [/color] AU$294. Total transit cost reduced to between [color:"red"] [/color] AU$544-654!?!

The above is conditional on FedEx confirming they are willing to accept sample package from another courier in Sydney and then forward on to testing Lab!!!!

I am still also awaiting confirmation from Cliffords as to whether frozen sample & chill packs are OK as indicated on their (limited) instructions or DO THEY REQUIRE DRY ICE AS WELL???

So total cost of testing

SHS- US$270 plus transport cost AU$544-1500 (frozen+dry ice) plus Path Lab costs AU$30-40

CLIFFORDS- US$335 plus transport costs of either AU$120 (frozen only) or AU$544-1500 (frozen+dry ice) plus Path Lab costs AU$30-40 plus Doctors consult fee AU$100 to order test.

Help suggestions advice needed urgently!!!