I think Sandi is doing a magnificent job Tracy. I suppose she hasn't posted on this thread because she's not interested in doing so. A fair few people have said they don't like what's being said here. I don't think anyone actually likes it when people bicker. I do like discussing some of the ideas here though. I'm not going to go to other threads and subversively try to get off-the-topic discussions going but I can't see that there's any harm in talking about various things here, I think some interesteing points have been raised.

SoSick I agree about the power of symbolism, and how it can be used to manipulate. Do I think the Vatican is actively doing this? To be honest it doesn't interest me. The biggest threat I think they pose to anybody is in the way they keep telling Catholics not to use birth control. Thereby ensuring a plentiful supply of fertile Catholic families, and all the ensuing problems of poverty, sexually transmitted diseases, etc. My father's family ended up being dirt-poor and unable to support their youngest children because they followed the teachings about birth control.

I also think that governments and the media are where we really need to be conscious of the manipulative use of symbols, as well as various brainwashing techniques that Elvis' vid touches on, e.g. the way everyone is now convinced that many things are necessary to do because of this "war on terror," including stripping civil liberties away.

I've lost some heart in this discussion though, it has to be said. I don't want people I respect on this forum not wanting to talk to me because they think I'm going to try to stir up dissent or tear down their religious beliefs.