I share your sentiments Pwcca. Russ I will try to respond breifly to what you said but I think there's not a lot of point in continuing the conversation because we just don't disagree, neither is going to change the other's mind, and I don't feel I'm learning a whole lot from this.

You said I have a way of colouring things, that's not good. In my opinion you do too. You believe there is an anthropomorphic God in heaven who runs everything and that it's possible for people like you to have a good idea of what his plans and purposes are. This colours everything you say. It's just that you believe you are right and people who disagree are wrong.

You cite what I've been saying about chemtrails as evidence that I am quick to accept ideas. I agree. I trust my instinct a lot and it rarely steers me wrong. You would probably say it's God working through me or inspiring me or something like that. You say I am quick to modify my ideas to synthesise emotionally comfortable positions. Can I ask where you got this idea? One of my main aims in life is to pursue the truth, even if it is painful. It depends on what I think the truth really is, based on the facts I see, what is and is not known.

All my life I have thought that evolution is a pretty good theory, supported by vast factual evidence across many different scientific disciplines. I'm willing to change my thoughts about this, too, depending on what we learn. I am not, however, going to become a creationist and I haven't seen any supposed "evidence" from this belief that convinces me in any way, no matter how deeply you believe they are facts.

I generally do not Christian-bash. I tend not to discuss it with people unless they really want to get into a deep and spiritual conversation with me. Usually discussing beliefs only starts arguments. It's easier to do this on the internet, this is the truth, because we are writing to each other rather than talking face-to-face. If I were meeting with you, having this kind of conversation would probably be the last thing I'd do; I'd look for common ground rather than differences. Actually, that's not a bad idea. I'm beginning to wonder what it is achieving by talking in this thread; maybe it really is better to leave well enough alone and just support people on the mercury forum.

I stopped being a Christian when I was 18. That was 17 years ago. I have never been tempted to "go back," but have been studying different kinds of spirituality ever since. I wouldn't call this emotional thinking, or seeking a comfortable position. If I wanted to be comfortable I would just go back to going to mass every Sunday, enjoy being part of a supportive spiritual community, make my parents happy, and just blank other thoughts out of my brain. I don't like being alone on the path I pursue but like I said, for me there is no going back. I have learned too much. You would no doubt say that I haven't learned; I have been duped by society, by textbooks, by Satan. Whatever.

I said I don't believe in original sin. I also said we all have flaws, so no we are not perfect. Who is to judge what perfection is? What I don't like is growing up being told I am innately sinful and no matter how many times I went to Confession I would always get it wrong and sin again. This is different in its connotations from just making mistakes. It reinforced the message to me, as a child, that I could never do anything right (my parents had already done a good job on me in that respect); in fact that I was nothing more than the dirt on the ground in God's eyes. Great way to instill self-confidence in a young person isn't it?

Everything you categorise under your heading of self-denial I agree with. We've found common ground here at last. In fact I see some real wisdom here. I've actively been working on improving some of these things in myself over the last few years. What I don't agree with is where you include homosexuality in this, as something negative that needs to be overcome in order for a person to grow and prosper. Nonsense. There's nothing wrong with it. Christians of all stripes seem to have a problem with this, because the Bible says it is an abomination i guess. Well I do know Christians who are deeply religious and follow the Bible but just don't go along with this. We're looking at the rules of a culture that lived thousands of years ago. Many do not apply today. Some do, and some apply all the time to everybody. You believe these rules came straight from God. You say I am a sitting duck for people in power to take advantage. Well so are you. If the people who wrote the Bible were looking for sheep who never question what they read in that book, think it all came from God and that it is beyond reproach, then they've got you in the palms of their hands. It's a good thing the Bible is generally benign and encourages people to love each other and be morally upright. Not all religions or cults can say the same, and some of their adherents would slay themselves at their leaders' bidding. Many of them do, blowing themselves up and taking others with them. They also are people who do what they are told and don't question.

You say sex out of its intended context is harmful. In other words, it has to be between a man and a woman who are married to each other. Whose intended context is this? Christianity is suffused with this idea that any other kind of sex is wrong. I do believe that a child is best served by having carers who are consistently there for them, and it helps to have a role model from each sex, especially for boys -- many of whom are lacking a good male role model and end up with some misogynist beliefs and deep frustrations and confusions. Saying this is not the same as saying that I think sex should only take place within a traditional marriage. I find myself asking again, though, why I am saying this here, as I realise you would say this was ungodly, harmful to society, too liberal of me, etc. I'm not convinced by anything you've said that homosexuality harms society. Most people would find this a very extreme view which is not borne out by reality.

Your definition of sorcery is certainly one I've never come across. IMO I find that truths can come from rituals of all kinds, including ones that would be considered by Christians to be sorcery. There is very little room for mysticism in Christianity and this is one of the things that turned me away from it. I thrive on mysticism and seek out people who can guide me in it. I think it opens an important dimension of human existence that many people are sadly unaware of.

I know that the Bible doesn't say sex is dirty. I know that it also does not require celibacy of anyone. But a lot of Christians do seem to have a puritannical attitude towards these things. The Catholic church in particular has always pushed the idea that it is men who are the true apostles of God, therefore Popes and priests must not be women; also, in order to reach the heights of spirituality, men need to leave sex and lust behind (i.e. become monks). Also, compared to much of the rest of the world, attitudes toward sex in the US are again rather puritannical.

Minor anecdotal case in point. New York firemen have been putting out a yearly calendar for a while, showing them in macho poses. One of these men was recently found to have posed nude for a separate photo shoot. The calendars were subsequently banned and the mayor of New York said no more would be produced because it tarnished the heroic image of the firefighters. This story was reported in a British newspaper as another of a long chain of amusing little stories about the weird ways of the Americans (and they really do like reading about that stuff here). It has been suggested by some that the more puritannical the attitudes of a society, the more the things they consider blasphemous will leak out all around the edges. For people who think it is obscene for a firefighter to pose in the nude, it is amazing how much sexual imagery is present in the media in all its forms. People who are not allowed to look in a normal and healthy way get titllated by teasing glimpses.

I do agree that the powers-that-be are the root cause of my ailment. Big pharma is responsible for carnage and suffering on a colossal scale, and the government and the FDA collude in it. I do not believe there is a god who let this happen or who feels sorry that it did. It is up to us to put these things right. Like Pwcca said, things happen because they happen. It may go against our desire to see order and meaning in the world when those things don't necessarily exist, but that's just how things are.

Whew, these long posts are hard work. Maybe we really should agree to disagree because if we're not convincing each other of anything or learning from each other, it just becomes a lot of hot air. Now if there were a big audience listening and participating, that's when things would really get interesting.