Russ, the tactic of telling everyone who opposes your beliefs that they are ignorant is getting a little old. We disagree, but I do not accept the implication that you are the wise spiritual master explaining basics to people with the spiritual intelligence of 5-year-olds.

I disagree with your premise of what conscience is. You know I accept evolution as a good working theory. I believe that conscience evolved to benefit the groups that people have lived in for millennia. If people in that group are doing anything to destroy its harmony, such as murdering, stealing, etc then everyone suffers. That's why you will find that people uphold these morals in all societies regardless of their religion. Many people have kind hearts and care for each other because that is how we all thrive. I still think this is a crucially important philosophy to live by, that we are all human and need to care for each other.

However, other matters of conscience are very much dependent on the society in which a person lives. Ask this of any anthropologist. Polygamy is acceptable in a number of societies. You may personally feel offended by the idea. I don't think I'd want to live that way myself. But for some it is a natural and beneficial way of life. It is debatable who actually benefits from it and who is actually enslaved and exploited by it, it depends on the circumstances, the culture, and the individuals involved. To refer back to the original topic here, some people think that circumcision is necessary and even divinely ordained. Others think it is barbaric. Are people born with an innate sense that circumcision is "good"? No. It's what their culture and their religion tell them. Same with foods that are haram, or taboo, for certain people. Muslims do not eat pork and they might well get a guilty twinge if they indulge in that. I wouldn't.

I am amazed at the assumption here that homosexuality is evil, so people are going against their consciences by participating in it. On the contrary, the behaviours you describe for your hypothetical chronic liar -- violence, drinking problems, nervous breakdown etc -- can be expressions of someone who denies who they are their whole lives in order to fit the mold that their parents, their society or their religion has set for them. The act of self-denial in conforming to this slowly kills part of the self. And you are praising this as good? Self-denial is not the same as delayed gratification or even an acestic life. By its very nature it is denying part of who you are. Implying that there is something inherently sinful about you that needs suppressing? Who's to judge that? We all have our flaws and do our best to rise above them. It is a serious thing, though, to tell someone that part of their very nature is flawed and needs to be repressed all their lives. A psychologist would have a field day with a person raised to think this way.

You said that the fall of many civilisatiopns was preceded by a rise in homosexuality. The clear analogy here is that homosexuality at least contributed to the decline. Concrete examples please? Someone else said here that it happens in nature too. I suppose your religion tells you that humans are separate from nature and have nothing to do with animals like monkeys though, which makes this a moot point to debate.

A lot of ultra-religious people criticise homosexuality and pornography. I wonder about this underlying message that sex is somehow dirty, impure, even evil. What consenting adults do in the bedroom is no business of mine and I can't understand why people think it is evil. If a man is "camp," you may not like it, but what is evil about that? Plenty of gay men aren't camp. Plenty of gay women aren't butch. And violent or exploitative pornography is not something I would approve of, but what is wrong with someone watching a porn vid in the privacy of their home -- something that people got paid to make and were OK with? Porn is blamed for any number of society's ills.

Many monks in the world, not just Christian ones, take vows of celibacy in the belief that this somehow takes them further from the worldly plane and "lower" forms of spirituality. Personally I believe that the only way to truly understand the nature of life is to engage in it. Buddha taught that the path to enlightenment lies in the joyful participation in the suffering of the world. Participation -- not removal. We find enlightenment through living and experiencing joy and pain, spiritual rapture as well as the everyday physicality of the body and the earth.

How come the Roman Empire, and the Greeks before them, were so successful then, if these things corrupt a society? You're telling me they didn't practise homosexuality or have porn? Now it's time for you to crack out the history books. They conquered much of the Western world are were largely responsible for the spread of your early religion. It would be rather spurious to claim that the fall of the Roman Empire was due to homosexuality, or that the Greeks were conquered because of it.

Ultimately I think we may have to agree to disagree here. If you really think homosexuality is innately sinful -- and I still don't understand why anyone would think it is evil -- then all I can say is it's a good thing I'm not one, because life can be hard enough without having to put up with people's irrational prejudices as well. I've actually had every sexual impulse ripped out of me by the antidepressant I stopped taking over a year ago. Does that purify me then?