Do you think taking long term herbs such as st johns wort, Valerian, lemon balm , Rhodiola, and hops. and taking alot of amino acids in high doses or vitamins can cause permanent or long term problems or change the body chemistry or neurotransmitters?

Short term yes, they do have a direct impact on all things mentioned. But long term the body should adjust and normalise to the low levels found in food. In the mean time I think the best thing to do is taper off slowly rather than ramp up and then just stop. I find if you don't do this you can feel really bad for maybe a month while the body gets used to the supplement not being there

Phil

Really. thanks for your help.

I dont know but I felt it may have changed whole mhy chemistry permantly but this could be a phobia im guessing and making it worse by believing it. Its just St johns wort really helps my mood but it makes me really slightly tremory and guess it might make me worse in the long run? but i think its good as I feel I can cope on it.

Why are you taking all these things? They will create imbalances in your body if you are not very sure about what you are doing. And the St. John's Wort is a mild SSRI (antidepressant). Is there a specific problem or symptom you are trying to address?

I cant concentrate much and cery lazy.

But im more messed up since taking lots of herbs. I feel on edge alot. And more dizzy and panic now.

How do I fix these imbalances that I have created. Thank vegie mom

I have done my own self supplementation with loads of herbs and amino acids and vitamins as well. I also would like to know if this can cause a biochemical change and what can we do to sort it out or find out exactly whats changed(expecially if its long term or permanent).

I have taken all of those you mentioned though not all at the same time execpt in specific formula's.

Im currently taking passiflora and st johns wort.

I have used Vogel's 'The Nature Doctor' as a reference for at almost 20 years, he recommends St John's Wrt oil quite a bit, generally for external use (as a topical), and rarely for internal use (the whole herb/flower like you would get in a store bought capsule) but only as needed for short duration.

I also use a handbookof Vitamin and herbal supplements by H Winter Griffith MD, may be out of print have had quite some time also. In that book it lists St John's Wort as being on the FDA' list of unsafe herbs (for long-term internal use). Reason's given are:

-causes photsensitization (bad if you go out in the sun a lot like me)
-interferes with absorbtion of iron and other minerals when taken internally
-slightly depresses central nervous system

chemicals it contains are:
Hypericin, Resins, tannins, and volatile oils.

It is meant for short term use only as far as i can tell. I have used the capsules myself in the past, I can only tolerate small amounts for a few days now and then.

You can cause more harm than good by doing things this way. Amino acids are a good example. Like the B vitamins, they work in synergy, so it's not a good idea to boost just one unless there's a good reason. Sometimes there is. But if I were you I'd educate myself before doing that. See a naturopath, or join a nutrition forum, or get some good books.

Herbs can be dangerous or unhealthful too, if you aren't sure about what you're doing. They can be potent, and they can have side effects. Personally I would stay away from St. John's wort because I will not use any psychotropic drugs. I think it's a rare case that can be helped by this compound as opposed to something else, or to a general positive change in diet.

Hope this helps,
Linda.

I think it's important to balance the information being posted here, at least a little. There has been some bad press about things like St. John's Wort but, as usual, the money behind the misinformation is pharmaceutical.

No offense to any who as different views about herbs. I only want to dispel the misinformation that we have all fallen victim to at some time or another and help people regain their health.

Because our business is researching herbs, we have discovered that herbs are, for the most part, exceptionally safe and very effective. There is also a lot of research available on most herbs even though the mainstream media will say otherwise. They are simply lying to appease their biggest advertisers, pharmaceutical companies.

Most people are unaware that there is an information war in progress between real researchers and pharmaceutically-funded misinformation houses. An example of this is the NCAHF. Another is the quackwatch website which is one of the most deceptive organizations I've come across. I've even written a rebuttal to one of their articles which contains outright lies:

http://herballure.com/HotTopics/MercuryAmalgam/BeyondRidiculous.html

Only those in the industry are aware of the tremendous cooperation between mainstream media, pharmaceutical companies, and governmental "departments" such as the FDA to spread harmful, untrue information about herbal supplements. This is a very real battle that continues growing every day.

Herbal supplements were my lifesaver. They got me through my horrible experience with mercury and kept me able to work and function until I finally discovered what conventional medicine had done to me with vaccines and amalgam fillings.

If anyone wants to see an example of the kind of research that is available on herbs, I invite them to visit our website where we are now beginning to post this information:

http://onlythebestherbs.com

This information that is posted today (the day this post was made) is only a fraction of the research we have available. The remaining research will be posted over the next few months (it's a huge project).

For anyone who is interested in learning about the daily misinformation tactics being used by big pharma, I highly recommend searching Amazon for the book

"Racketeering in Medicine" by Dr. J. Carter.

It will give you a taste of what is really going on.

I also recommend the video "The Tomato Effect". This is a story of a girls plight to find out how her father died that launched her into the dark world exposing the tactics used by pharmaceutical companies and "medical" organizations to fraudulently discredit and put-out-of-business alternative practitioners without cause.

Of course, none of this has been completely unforeseen:

http://herballure.com/bibledeceived

St John's wort is very good stuff, however I think for internal use it falls into the category of items like echinacea that should not be used daily on a long-term basis. Everything in moderation in certain categories ... echinacea for instance, an herb I rely on and love, will actually boost your immune system very effectively if taken for 10 days or so, maybe a bit longer. If however you take it long-term, say for 3-4 months daily, it actually has the opposite effect since your body begins to rely on the presence of the echinacea and thus your natural immune system becomes weaker.

Herbs are powerful things and I know for sure that they do definitely work wonders. What are pharmaceuticals?. Also combinations of certain things need to be taken into consideration. Tannins for instance can be good in some instances and can also be harmful, so moderation in the powerful herb category is required. Parsley is something you can eat all you want of every day forever, but echinacea is not.

H. C. A. Vogel's 'The Nature Doctor' is an invaluable reference if you can locate it. Probably still available via the net somewhere. Full of all sorts of herbal remedies. Doesn't give much breakdown on chemical properties, just lots of firsthand experience and stories about curing ailments naturally.

I read somewhere recently that the quackwatch guys themselves were arrested or finally sued bigtime. they are in hiding last I heard.

Lemon balm is suppose to be great, it's another item I have had issues with though that may be because I was also eating feverfew at the time. Feverfew rids you of headaches btw and it works wonderfully for sure, especially fresh (take it a few times a week before the headache starts or at the first sign of one and you will not have headaches, period, much much better than aspirin, use regularly for several weeks then several weeks off, headaches will not return during time off, this is for major migraines btw, the ones that land you in bed for days)... but I may have encountered a problem with it due to heavy metals in my system. I don't want to go into details because I am not sure of what was going on (it's an anti-coagulant and who knows what else) but I can say that it is because of the feverfew (which I have stopped eating, ate it all last summer though) that I realized it wasn't actually my head hurting but it was my teeth aching that caused the headaches. Unfortunately the dentist I found to help was a hack but anyway...

they all grow happily in my flower beds.. echinacea, lemon balm, St John's wort, feverfew, they all spread like the weeds they are too so be careful... what else is in there I will have to go look... oh yea pennyroyal is much better than Off as a bug repellant and safe for the kids, don't eat it rub it on, I had to cut that stuff back the other day it is really getting out of control, no ants or fleas though (rub it on your dog or cat too for safe flea control, lasts for days smells great) and the moles hate it... what else.. I'll get back to you.

I'm sorry if I came across as being anti-herb, I'm definitely not, and I don't buy any big pharma propaganda nonsense. I take ginkgo and ashwagandha daily, and sometimes relora, to manage symptoms I have that were caused from coming off an antidepressant too quickly a year ago (yes, a year). I also take some Bach flower essences.

My word of caution was in playing around with substances and doses without knowing much about what you are doing. If I take too much Relora, I can feel worse rather than better. And I tried St. John's wort myself. It made me feel removed from reality and gave me terrible stomach cramps, so I didn't carry on with it. It does have psychotropic properties.

Maybe I'm all the more a believer in herbal medicine, because I know that they really can be powerful substances.

The Quack watch team have got a lot to answer for. Additionally, here in Australia if you were to read a mono-diet of mainstream news, you could be forgiven for believing that herbs and supplements are humanity's greatest health threat.

Back in 2003, here is Aussie land, dramatic events unfolded following the observation of aggravated side effects in Travacalm, an anti-motion sickness PHARMACEUTICAL drug made by a Sydney manufacturer Pan Pharmaceuticals. The Therapeutics Goods Administration of Australia went into action by issuing the the largest product recall in Australian history. Other than Travacalm, no pharmaceutical made my Pan was recalled. HOWEVER, believe it or not, over 1500 natural supplement lines including vitamins, minerals and herbs were swept off the health food shelves. The TGA urged consumers to stop taking all natural health supplements, whilst reminding the public that pharmaceutical drugs were unaffected. Many pharmacies and health food stores were forced into bankruptcy.

After Pan had been shut down, the Australian media lined up to engage in vitamin and herb bashing, hoping to create negative perceptions of the complementary medicine industry. In the media comments such as 'snake oil salesmen' and 'quackery' abounded. All this hoo ha about herbal and vitamin supplements because one PHARMACEUTICAL drug (Travacalm) caused some aggravated effects.

While a pharmaceutical drug might not be recalled until numerous deaths have occurred, a naturopathic substance will face a ban if it is suspected of causing one allergic reaction !!! And most frustratingly in this case a naturopathic substance had not even been suspected of causing any allergic reactions !!! Ahh the injustice !!

For the drug industry, the ideal outcome would be a strict regulatory regime mandating that herbs and vitamins can only be sold in ineffectual dosages at astronomical prices, with expensive compliance requirements that only giant corporations can afford.

Codex alimentarius is the name for an international set of food standards that are administered under the auspices of the World Health Org. For many years, the drug industry has been working behind the scenes at Codex to bring in a tough set of rules. This has recently culminated in a set of draconian international supplement rules that are intended to become effective by 2010. Vitamins and herbs will be regulated as drugs, dosages exceeding levels naturally found in food will be prohibited, and multi-million dollar testing regimes will send prices skyrocketing.

The chairman of the Codex Committee on Nutrition and Food has gone on record saying something to the effect that 'nutrition has no place in medicine'. Bloody idiot, what else can one say !! His views are echoed by by Codex that states that nutrients may not be used to 'prevent, treat or cure any disease or condition.'

We as consumers cannot afford to be complacent or we may eventually find that the supplements that we take for granted may suddenly disappear from the shelves.

Food for thought.

Cheers and night night from Rachie

There isn't a foul enough word in the English language to describe Stephen Barrett the Quack.

I'm sorry to hear that the pharmaceuticals are cutting into your rights to take supplements over there. They never stop trying, all over the world. A few years ago this almost happened here in Europe. And the American FDA make an attempt now and then to have supplements regulated as drugs.

I talk on a SAD forum because that's the first forum I ever joined, and I thought for a while that SAD was my problem. I maintain topics there about antidepressants and nutrition. Most people there think I am an obsessive crank. The ones who say this are often the ones who are always complaining about how ill they feel, and popping pills. Now and then someone says that the info I've posted is really helpful, and that makes it all worthwhile.

It all makes so much sense to me now, but just a little over a year ago I was just like everybody else, I thought that if you ate a good diet (I didn't even know what that was) you'd get all the nutrition you needed, and I trusted my doctor and my dentist. Hah.

I think I'm fonder of vitamin C than any other supplement. It was the first one I started learning about, because I was recommended a book by Linus Pauling. It's about as close to magic as anything gets I think <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Yeah im stopping st johns wort now since I have been takin git for way too long. Back in 2003 I took it for 3 monthes and been takin git reguarly on and off. I think it caused me to get panic attacks lol..It does make you feel out of synch with reality and thought it was just me.

I tried lemon balm(But think it came with valerian) it was called De-stress formula). It didnt work at all for me as it made me really weird and more tense and stressed which I thought was strange since its meant to be a muscle relaxant and more.

I also messed around with gingko at the saem time whilst on st johns wort. I haven taken quite high doses too.

At the moment Im just taking passiflora(its called natracalm but think it has other stuff since its a chemist brand). It does help and dont know if its PLACEBO(Hate that word lol).

How does tropical treatment work of herbs. Does it have the same effects as internal?

I am all for obsessive cranks. I think perhaps that I am one too !! Welcome to the club.

Yep, Europe was nearly sucked into the whole Codex Alimentarius fiasco. Fortunately the ANH was quickly created and initiated an almighty legal challenge against the EU in a bid to save Europe's threatened supplement industry. However, I believe that a radically modified Directive will come into effect in 2009. Better stock up VeggieJuicer.

If only a good diet would suffice. Ahh lament. These days I even wonder if organically grown produce is comparable to produce grown say a thousand years ago. GM foods are starting to infect organic and biodynamic food. Even with the best organic methods I really wonder about the nutrient content in soils that are being continually farmed year after year. I am quite sure that nature did not intend for one species of plant to be grown on one a plot of land year after year.

Cheers from Rachie

Actually the topical treatment of herbs can be far superior to the internal effects. I tried an internal tincture of St John's Wort a few years ago and like you Joe, it made me feel really weird and I also experienced photosensitivity. I gave it the flick until I developed Shingles a few years ago. I recalled from my herbal studies that Hypericum works well as an external agent. I mixed some St John's wort oil with some Calendula and Goldenseal and experienced the most amazing pain relief. In fact, a few months ago I attended a Herbal seminar, where the speaker who is a very well known author of herbal texts here in Australia suggested that he gets much better results from using St John's Wort as a topical treatment for neuralgic disorders rather than an internal treatment for depression. He preferred herbs such a Jamacian dogwood and Passiflora for depressed conditions.

Cheers from Rachie

thats really cool, Thanks for all your responses.

I will have to ask my health food store for topical treatments. I have seen A.vogels tinctures with alcohol and wandered if they are any good. I think they are internal though.

Also where do you apply the topical treatments mainly?

I guess I will have to go and see a herbalist and ask them for advice about my situation.
Its crazy but I read things about people getting better taking this herb or supplement and I go out and try it without thinking about the long term biochemical imbalances. Its like when I started reading someone got better taking phenylalanine at high doses I started trying it. And then so on with other amino acids and fatty acids/herbs vitamins...its crazy.

I also read taking up too 3000mgs plus of B3 cures anxiety so I tried this as well for a while.

I cant believe I stuck out over 3 monthes on St Johns wort. I recently started it again and only lasted 3 weeks. In hoping to help but cant tolerate the side effects.

When you go see the herbalist, check their bookshelf for Vogel's Nature doctor book, and maybe just browse through it.

Tinctures would be for internal use, he recommends it, for intance, in certain situations, for lactating moms. there are other things but mostly he recommends it for external use, in oil form, I assume essential oil.

St John's wort is somewhat toxic in high doses, since you have taken so much of it it might be wiser to simply lay off for a time rather than even try topical treatments (wrist is a good area, ankles, back of your neck, anywhere really) Vogel mostly recommends it externally for skin conditions, acne and rashes.

I don't know what the problem with me and lemon balm is, I love the strong lemony smell of the plant more than anything which is why i keep it around. I might drop a few leaves into ice tea now and then, that's about it. I think it's a lot stronger (fresh), whatever is in it, than most people want to believe. Either that or I was more toxic than I knew when I tried to use it daily.

If all of these codex and related things really look like they are coming down the pike it probably is time to buy some seeds and plant a flower garden. Be really careful with the fresh herbs, they are all much much stronger and more effective than the stuff you buy in capsule form OTC.

I think I'm going to learn a lot here. The herbs I use work very well for me, but they were prescribed by a specialist. I don't know a great deal about herbs myself.

Joel, it's something called biochemical individuality. Each of us could take the same thing for the same condition and have different reactions. And of course it depends on what symptoms you are trying to treat too.

Didn't you get flushed from taking all that niacin?? Well if your problem was schizophrenia it should be cured LOL. (B3 is an orthomolecular treatment for schizophrenia.)

I'm glad to be meeting other "cranks." Long live the cranks!!

Thanks again for the update.

Yes will look into topical but decided to lay off the st johns wort for a while.

I took B3 as Niacinamide which is different to niacin as that would be crazy with the flushes lol. Yes I read later that its used for schizophrenia.

Will have to look out for that book.
Yeh your right about the biochemical indiviuality. Sometimes I expect or think too much about what im taking though so I dont know whats real or placebo etc..its so confusing and a really bad habit self supplementing and I have got to stop.

Far as I know there are really only a few herbs that you need to exercise caution with (aside from the outright poisonous ones that are hallucinogenic), well maybe a dozen. St John's wort is one I know, echinacea another, valerian may fit in there, wormwood (all short duration use), feverfew maybe, there are others but most like borage oil, ginseng, even gingko are safe to take everyday.

I never do though, just an everything in moderation and let the body rest type of person. But there's nothing wrong with supplementing, especially with trace mineral and vitamin C filled herbs/flowers like nasturtium or chamomile. But you need a handbook for sure. seems like mixing St John's wort with valerian is dual dosing anti-depressants.

Borage is the safest and most consistent pick me upper I know of. I grow it, such a weed it grows all over my garden on it's own by now...the flowers are great, nasturtium I would rate the same, chock full of C. And basil always makes me feel wonderful, especially when I mix it with cilantro as of late. Yummy too.

I have never touched the St John's wort in the garden... it's there I guess if I want it but it scares me so it does what it does on it's own. My hyssop died I need some more of that just to keep stock..

I also wouldn't overlook more common kitchen herbs like rosemary, thyme, sage, parsley and oregano. You can research most of these on the internet. Rosemary is also a favorite of mine, many uses. Fennel, fenugreek...

It's nice to see so many people showing their faces. Just wanted to mention that I appreciate the comments on this thread.

Linda, thanks for the warnings about herbs. I understand and agree that we should be careful with anything that we put into our bodies. I'm a big herb fan because they have been a very effective, safe, and inexpensive way for me to maintain my health while I searched for a cure for my 17 symptoms. My business partner and I publish herbal research and I'm amazed at how much there is. I hope more and more people discover the benefits they provide. Anyway, thanks for your clarification.

Rachie, you make great points. I fear the GM foods and long-term effects of greedy agricultural practices. I believe biblical warnings about the future are valid and are related to current agricultural policies and practices.

Cheers.

Whats ashwaganda do? I take rhodiola, passionflora and ginko. One is for stress tolerance, the other for relaxation and the other for blood flow and depression etc. They all seem to be doing their job but im not fully better yet but how long can you take herbs for and when should we stop or when do you notice the effects? Thanks

This is stuff you will need to ask a herbal practitioner, find in a book, or look up on the internet.

Ashwagandha is one of the major herbs in the Indian Ayurvedic system. Look up Ayurveda too, you might find it to be a revelation. It can address a variety of things, depending on the state of your body and what symptoms you have.

Russ, the Hart reference looks great. I was wondering if it actually included pictures (renderings or photos) of certain herbs as shown on the main page .

I was also wondering if you are in ongoing process of adding to the herbal list.

Echinacea (purpurea or long leaf as 2 medicinal, and all versions otherwise of) is a ferocious and very reliable perennial btw (definitely not an annual). Dormant for the winter as a tuber/root stock underground, survives extreme cold and freezing weather/snow, revives quite early every spring and spreads like crazy once established. Takes two years to mature and for the first blooms to appear (all versions). The young tender first year shoots/roots are excellent as a medicinal even before the plant has matured. I actually only generally pick the leaves/some flowers of the mature flowering plants for drying and use the baby plants that seed themselves as volunteers from the previous season for fresh root use, very strong and more tender than the mature plants, which I keep for parenting babies from year to year. I started just 2 or 3 Echinacea purpurea flowers several years ago, dug 2 up and moved them quite successfully (very easy to restart from root stock) to our new location about 5 years ago and by now I usually have at least a dozen and a half always growing around in the flower beds. Of course I eat a lot of it from time to time otherwise there would be much more... I often have to simply pluck and toss the babies because they are so prolific also.

I'd really like a comprehensive illustrated herbal reference of the Hart type with all the various ailment references etc

I also keep on the shelf 'The Wellness Encyclopedia of Food and Nutrition' published by the University of California at Berkeley, my copy 1992 version. Another very helpful and comprehensive must have reference.

There is some information on Ashwagandha here:

http://onlythebestherbs.com/InfoSys.php?PN=AdaptaMax

Just do a page search for the word and you'll find it.

So Sick...

The HART book is actually a reference specifically for Nature's Sunshine Products.

We have been considered what Laura's next major project is. It may be a physicians herbal reference or a herbal guide for the public. Not decided yet.

Thanks for asking.

Megadoses of certain supplements can make you acidic but this can probably counteracted by juicing.

Is Ginkgo Biloba any good? I took it for a few weeks but still have hot flushed where my cheeks feel hot and go red. Does this happen if I have something wrong with the herbs I take or a side effect? How do I stop this?

Ginkgo biloba is a great herb for many different health problems, particularly peripheral circulatory problems (or problems related to circulation to the arms, legs and head). The "flushed" feeling you mention would indicate to me that the ginkgo is promoting increased circulation to your head, which is great for your brain, as well as for eye health. The flushing may just be temporary, especially if you just recently began using ginkgo, or you could try reducing your intake a little.

Of course quality is important when it comes to herbal supplements. Many "cheap" products don't go through the rigorous quality control and inspection that some companies (like Nature's Sunshine) put their products through. In fact, I've personally been to the manufacturing facility for Nature's Sunshine and was amazed at what a high-tech, high-quality operation they have. Apparently, it's not uncommon for them to reject raw herb materials from growers because of the poor quality of the herbs.

Anyway, I hope this helps. I've written a detailed information page about Ginkgo Biloba with some of the scientific research (from peer-review medical journals, etc.) available on its proven uses and benefits:

Ginkgo Biloba

Feel free to check it out and let me know if you have any questions.