The notion that evolution is weird as a theory and therefore incorrect is silly.
No one even conceived of Relativity Theory before Einstein,
and even today it is weird--yet nuclear power plants became possible only with the understandings it provided,
and the sun and all stars operate in accord with it.
And then Quantum Theory came along, and it was too weird for Einstein ! !
Meanwhile Newton's theory is adequate for many "everyday"
uses.
Yet although none of these theories provide a complete picture of the world, they do reveal some of the workings of nature; and allow us to make predictions and inventions that really work.

We may not like many results of applied science. And much of science study is so narrow as to be useless. Yet the methods
make all technological progress possible.

But I will only be impressed by "Religious" folks objections to Evolutionary theories, when i see them forgoing the benefits of science--like using computers, driving cars, flying in airplanes, using telephones & radios, wearing clothes, using anesthetics, and so on, that they so totally take for granted that they have forgotten all sense of gratitude to those human beings (not God) (many of whom risked their lives, only to be persecuted by the church, like: Galileo Galilei) who came before them and devoted their lives to using their own minds to understand the world.

It makes sense to try and understand science--but frankly many scientists don't understand much science in fields other than their own. However they may have one advantage over the rest of us--they may have more practice in maintaining an open mind...

Strangely it seems it is mostly Christians and Islamic fundamentalists who object to things like Women's rights and "Evolution".
The religions of the Orient, and the Native America Religions seem to be somewhat more free of this fear of ideas and social progress.

In any case in the 1950s no one in America would have believed that smoking would become illegal in many public places--or in the internet...Yet overall we are pretty much on track with 2 prophets of an earlier era: Huxley and Orwell.
Privacy will soon be an ancient relic, and Prozac and and Ritalin are a fair match for Soma, to say nothing of the progress being made in clonning.

Before too long--say in the next 50 years--genetic treatment of many diseases will become a common place. And everyone who can afford it will take advantage of it regardless of "Religion", and regardless of what the underlying genetic science reveals about the history of life on earth. There is no rush, as there is no stopping time--you would have to go at the speed of light for that--which even fundamentalists can't do.

You are so funny. You are absolutely sure that God and Christians are opposed to science are you?

I think you are missing the point, which is man should not suppose to play God, whether through a world view such as evolution or human secularism, or tampering with creation in ways which may affect future generations adversly, such as certain types of cloning.

Man has a very short field of vision. Man makes many terrible mistakes. Were it not so, even this mainly mercury forum would not exist.

Jesus is probably a computer genius. I sincerely believe the internet is part of God's plan, for the increasing of knowledge. So is reading and education, Bill. Try reading one of the world's oldest books for instance, the bible.

God would like to raise you up Bill that you might lead a full and prosperous life that honors Him. He does not care to see you languishing in a tent in the woods with smelly clothes and only berries to eat, not without very good reason anyway.

Galileo was persecuted by the Catholic church (not God), a political organization many times itself far from God's will, in that it's own popes also like to play god, little god there. At the same time, the catholic church forbade it's people from reading the bible and even persecuted those who simply did that also. I imagine there are quite a few popes in hell playing god still for a while. The very first ghost I ever saw in my life... I was about 7 years old, and it was dressed in a brown monks robe, sash and everything... but there was no face under the hood just blackness there.. hardly angelic. Kind of changed my worldview forever. My neighbor saw 3 of the same ghosts in her backyard the same week. Maybe they were looking for books to burn <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

A few facets of Islam seem to in the midst of their own little inquistion today, both they and the catholic church would probably love to be the strongest political power once more again also. But it has about as much to do with God as the cost of oil and who controls the profits.

Essentially Bill, that is the problem with a lot of (but not all) science too, it's not science just for science's sake or even to benefit all of mankind but rather science for someone elses $$sake$$, and probably not yours unfortunately. Monsanto for instance, would like you to only buy seed from them so they have developed genetically modified versions of certain crops that can even sterilize other crops. This is not good Bill, but it is science. You can have that science, I think most knowledgable Christians will hand that one over to you without much of a fight.

I can't wait to see these new bugs they are developing that are suppose to eat CO2 gases. I hope they don't breed too quickly or I'll have to plant my garden in the house and invite lots of people over all the time.. course if we get too oxgenated I might get too high to care if all the trees are stunted. But I don't take Ritalin so i might be the only one who notices anyway.

Much of science is marching on a path simply trying to cure the diseases it has created Bill. Take a good deep look.

Anybody want a twinkie for breakast?

Actually you are much funnier. For starters "my name" as posted is "notBill" not "Bill", and my post says nothing about God, or how folks "should" behave...but hey, say whatever you want...maybe Jesus was a computer whizz...or do you mean you like Cheese Whizz?...anyway like I said: Actually you are much funnier.

It says nothing abouit God?

oh, I guess I didn't get the impression that that was implied by your mention of Christians, and other religions either.

silly me, Bill. Not.

I meant to mention that yes, it is such an event of historic proportion. Hindus have begun to take steps to make burning wives and mothers with their deceased husbands illegal.

Such progress, we are definitely getting ahead.

Anybody got an extra poker chip?

I run into opinions of this nature a lot. Mostly I think, probably you are young and lack a knowledgable foundation of historical context... power struggles/religion/politics... caste systems, slavery and pecking orders.

There is a lot to know, a lot to research in regard to history and why people believe the things they do. More often than not you'll find they believe certain things only because of the position they were born into within their family and culture. Essentially, it's all they know and that applies as equally to America in 2007 as it has to any other culture past or present.

Human secularism, which proposes essentially that man is god of this world, and likewise which movement has worked very hard to promote evolution, was actually begun as a church in the early 1900's. In order to be as influential as possible though, eg; public school curriculim, the human secularist movement had to renounce it's roots as a religion of man/self worship as opposed to God worship. But it is still the same movement.

notBill,

Your post is a hodgepodge of misinformation and vast assumptions.

If people cannot see through the fundamental problems (absurdities, really) with evolution, there isn't much I can do to help them, but I can offer a few tips to those who are intelligent and willing to work through the mountains of lies and misinformation that is spread to promote evolution for the profit of a wealthy few.

The fundamental mistake you are making is what I call "glumping". This is when you associate patterns of conclusions from one circumstance and apply it to an unrelated circumstance. In short, you're doing exactly what you are indirectly accusing others of doing.

You see notBill, the promotion of evolution is exactly like magic. Someone asks you to believe something that is impossible and then offers all kinds of suggestions about how it is possible while ignoring the fundamental principles—things we already know. Those who accept this absurd idea of evolution are those are are easily distracted; they forget fundamentals and are lured on to believe what appeals to them. The irony is that they usually accuse the other "side" of doing the same. You simply don't know yourself.

As a human, I care about truth. I have studied and it led me here, to the Bible and then to Christ. I let the data lead me, not my emotions or desires. If evolution were a viable theory, I would have been completely open to it, in fact I was until I did my homework and learned what is really behind it. Its purpose for promotion truly does open an interesting can of worms, not unlike investigating the purpose for putting mercury into vaccines or into dental fillings.

notBill, I would recommend you stop getting your science from textbooks, museums, or the Discovery Channel and begin reading some real science. Also, the most important place to start is to know yourself. If you do this, you will realize how vulnerable you are to distraction (magic) and desire. It's one of the most difficult things you will probably never decide to do: Learn to deny yourself and investigate truth objectively. You have a lot to learn. I know this because you are fundamentally wrong in many of your points (no offense).

If you decide to really seek the truth about this subject, you will learn how deep the rabbit hole really goes.

<<Your post is a hodgepodge of misinformation and vast assumptions.>>
so you noticed--wow--I'm impressed. *
Now all you have to do is take the next step and realize all opinions are ! !
All of yours included.
Please reread your own post, and notice that it has no facts in regards to the theory of evolution either.
but then again, who cares?
Remember Socrates only got executed for his efforts.
But then again convincing others one is right is
so satisfying it's always worth it, right?
I mean it's almost better than a good joke;
Know what I mean?
It's important to know truth can never be funny .
It would be scary if God had a sense of humor,
or actually made use of paradoxes.
It would threaten me if she laughed at me.
Know what I mean?

*(Anyway it reads well and also dares to make a prediction)

OK, I'll give you punch line about evolution.

The bottom line is that symmetrical, complex systems don't form by themselves. It takes an external intelligence to design and form them. It's really just that simple.

Let me give you a few examples to drive this fundamental point home.

The eye. Symmetry. Very complex, unconnected parts that work together. The optic nerve. This stuff does not just happen. If people cannot see that, then, like I said, there isn't much I can do to help them. I don't mean to be offensive. I just stand amazed at how easy it is for media to sell magic to people.

Sexual organs. They work together yet are disconnected. They are very complex. These things don't just design themselves and form. Think about it.

The digestive system. Again very complex, disconnected parts that work together in very complex ways. It's simple to understand what I'm saying if you just think about it.

Ligaments. Bones. Tendons. Symmetry. A spinal cord connected to organs controlled by highly-formed, tremendously complex cells.

Evolutionists just get distracted by the magic, but I made a discovery. If you start to tear the magic apart piece-by-piece, you will find that it's all just made up. Lie after lie. If it were not so, I just may be an evolutionist myself. Instead, I discovered the lies that have been lined up just to keep us all busy and keep our attention focused somewhere else—somewhere where they can keep using old-fashioned debate tactics to tie you up in details that don't really relate to the subject.

I don't do people's homework for them, for the evidence against evolution is so easy to see, that if it's not visible to someone, there is certainly nothing that will change a person's mind no matter how much "evidence" a person has presented to them.

Sometimes, I do offer hints that people can follow if they are inclined to do their own research.

Piltdown Man

The factory moths and the birds

The geologic column

Fossil dating

The mathematics of human population growth over time

The grand canyon: Reversible waterways. The spillway zone. Elevated shoreline.

OK, this should keep you busy for a while, if you decide to investigate.

In all seriousness, evolution is just the tip of the iceberg in an attempt to hide the truth from you by those who profit from it, and it will only succeed if you let it. The truth is not hard to find, but you have to really want it.

-------------------

2 points in relation to your 2 main points

1) ...if for the moment I grant your point that it takes an external intelligence to form something complex it leaves unanswered the question "What created that intelligence?"...This is the sort of embarrassing question that all healthy small children point out--and there is obviously no satisfactory logical answer.

And frankly Scientists do no better than Theologians...saying there was no time before the "big Bang" also feels rather unsatisfactory, to many people I imagine.

(Personally I'm somewhat comfortable with mysteries, paradoxes, and ambiguities; and feel life would be rather boring without them. But obviously the majority of folks are not comfortable with uncertainty or wonder)

if someone says "I feel God created the world, and everyday I wake up and feel grateful to be in such a beautiful world, I feel permeated by God's love, and everything in my life seems to flow forth from this warm feeling". Who can argue with that? Who wants to spoil their happiness?
But if on-the-other-hand their happiness always feels just a little insecure unless they can convince others that their beliefs are logical--then another person who shows them that their beliefs are of a conceptual nature rather than experiential nature does, them a favor as they now will have the opportunity to continue their spiritual quest.
Deep experiential spirituality maybe manifested for example as the ability to immolate oneself as the Buddhist monks did during the Vietnam war, and would not seem to be dependent upon intellectual arguments as to the truth or falsity of Darwinian Evolutionary Theory.
But this depth is very rare of course. I just have to learn to accept myself as I am. If I can't do that, how can I escape judging "others"?

----------

2)...It seems you believe that there is a conspiracy or conspiracies afoot to keep folks hoodwinked. This seems far-fetched when you consider for a moment one example which is typical: That large corporations that pollute also harm the bosses and their families. Of course in many ways the very rich are rather insulated. It is a true that they can buy "Justice" and keep their kids out of the army, but this is a Truism not a Hidden Conspiracy.

It would seem to me that the sorry state of mankind is rather the result, of such obvious forces as greed, fear, & ignorance, & and their various manifestations, such as lust, desire, anger, projection, impatience, lack of imagination and conformity.

And it seems to me that although there are always plenty of dirty plots going on behind the scenes, (many of which we will never hear of) like Watergate, Ollie North and the CIA drugs for weapons plot, Enron and so on; that overall there is no centralized evil mastermind. As they used to say "What if they gave a war, and nobody came?" Most of us are only too ready to come if we're not to busy cheering our favorite football team or boxing champ.

Just off the top of my head consider that we have only to look at how pathetically folks spend their free time, or look at literature and movies to see what a popular plot revenge is-unfortunately there is no need for conspiracies to explain our deficiencies,.. seems to me that metaphorically at least the theory of evolution is an insult to animals--not to us.

If we study the rise and fall of other civilizations, it seems apparent that the above mentioned emotional forces and human limitations are sufficient to explain the dynamics of the ups and downs of human fortune, through out history and prehistory worldwide.

But of course human vanity wants an external Devil aka a "Conspiracy" - it makes us important, and gives us someone to blame.

I do not think that there is a conspiracy among humans but I do believe that there is a conspiracy among the kingdom of hell (demons). This is obviously a behind-the-scenes conspiracy, carefully kept hidden from mankind.

Also if anyone ever does figure out the answer to the question, "then who created God?" I would really like to know - not who created God, but how it's actually possible to be a completely independent creature with a will definitely distinct from the creator and yet no-one created him - I have not found the answer yet, and I don't think I'm the only one that wants to know.

I once heard a child ask this question to a sunday school teacher and her answer was, "You don't need to know." - but I think this is wrong. I think that God puts this question into our minds naturally because he wants us to try to find the answer and he in fact wants to give us the answer, when we seek with our whole hearts in purity. Maybe we don't know yet because not enough people have honestly asked the question yet.

TO: NotBill

I hope this post helps you understand some of these concepts. You actually bring up points that I did cover in my post but you must have missed them. That's OK.



I dealt with that question when I pointed out that time is a created thing. Multidimensional physics is a difficult thing for most people to conceptualize, but it is Biblical.

God created time. The terms you use—such as "Before"—is a term that denotes thinking—or in your case—asking a question within the realm of time. God not only created this universe and it's multidimensional structure, He created time itself.

I know that it's difficult to get your mind wrapped around the idea of time being a created thing, but give it a try. The best scientists now understand this concept, and that is a good thing.



The best and only way to discover deep truth is to get yourself out of the way. How we "feel" about truth is completely irrelevant and is a clear indication that you have not discovered this fact (the importance of getting yourself out of the way) as of yet.

Truth is not about how we feel. That is incidental.



Escaping judging others is not the end-all goal of truth. Furthermore, the states reached by monks deal with and are related to emotion. In fact, every religion in the world subjectively "reveals" truth using the emotions as a guide to some extent. However, the Bible says not to find truth this way.

If God wanted to reach His creation, He would make symbols ever present that denote His existence and purposes, and not surprisingly, the world is full of them. Of course, if you don't care—i.e. you don't study—you will not find them. God even modeled this emotional pattern (dislike of apathy) to help those spiritually young to understand His own attributes. Those spiritually (intellectually) mature do not rely on emotions to discern truth but God makes it easy for us in the beginning (by placing an emotional model in place).

Remember, I'm not talking about religion here. You have to remember that. Religion is a man-made thing. I'm talking about truth—What is truth.

If God is real, than it is true that God is real regardless of any man's religion. Does that make sense. I hope that makes this conversation a little more clear. Religion is essentially entertainment, and that has come to fruition in today's "Churches". God is about a personal relationship that changes your life literally forever. I experience this relationship. It is part of my life. Those who don't are really missing out, but more on that another time.

Unfortunately, because most people assume that others are like themselves, they assume that discussions like this are coming from an emotional place. This is not true with me. I understood a long time ago that a search for truth is not to be guided by my own personal desires or emotions. It is external to me (and you).



Well, there are a few things that I know a thing or two about, and that is conspiracies. They are not for guessing, or for deciphering by your emotions (as you stated in the next paragraph where you said "it would seem to me").

Conspiracies are clear and open to study. They are easy to find. A global conspiracy, in fact, is very hard to cover up.

The best place to start research is in law to understand how those who conspire use law to tie you up into UCC contracts (ever see an American flag with a yellow fringe around it?). Again, it's very important to remember that this idea about global conspiracies is not my idea. It's what I learned through research. I wish it were not true but there no guesswork about it.

The only reason you don't believe in or understand global conspiracies is because you have never studied them. If you did, you would come to the same conclusions that I have and that millions of others have and millions more are beginning to.

Let me tell you... You have no idea how far it has gone, and interestingly, the Bible prophesied thousands of years ago that this global conspiracy would happen. It even gives interesting insights about it. Forget Nostradamus, the Bible has predicted the future with amazing accuracy and only those who:

• have not studied it, or
• hate God for other reasons, (and yes, there are those who hate God)

will miss this amazing truth.



Again, you are judging the world based on your own belief of yourself. (Remember when I said know thyself?)

You're so wrong and I would urge you to begin studying these things for your own benefit. Whether you begin with the Bible or global conspiracies, you had better get busy.

And why do I make this plead for you to get busy?

The Bible predicted that one day you would be required to have a "mark" placed on your right hand or forehead in order to "buy or sell". If you accept this mark, there is no chance for eternal salvation for your soul. This mark is the final symbol of the apathy (lack of any caring) of the masses (they refused to listen; they refused to study) and will cause an eternal separation from God. Of course the governments will tell you that it's for your own "protection".

This is the prophecy that was given thousands of years ago. Don't wait for the moment of truth to clobber you over the head before you take action. Don't wait to "see" the mark before you decide to study. Start now.


"And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six."

—Revelation 13:16-18


The Bible's Prediction About End-Time Pharmaceuticals

I do not understand the concept of time yet and the fact that time is a created thing - I hope that God opens my mind to understand this soon (I have been thinking about it for a long time and waiting for the complete revelation and I know that it can only come by revelation.), but I do know that emotions are an important part of life, something that we cannot ignore. I do not follow my emotions, actually my emotions follow me, but I do not deny that I have emotions either. God doesn't deny that he has emotions either, in other words he does not separate himself from his own emotions, as the bible clearly shows:

"The Lord saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time. The Lord was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain ." - Gen. 6:5,6

"When Jesus saw her weeping, and the Jews who had come along with her also weeping, he was deeply moved in spirit and troubled . 'Where have you laid him?' he asked. 'Come and see, Lord,' they replied. Jesus wept ." - John 11:33-35

"As he approached Jerusalem and saw the city, he wept over it..." - Luke 19:41

"Later, knowing that all was now completed, and so that the Scripture would be fulfilled, Jesus said, I am thirsty ." - John 19:28

"An angel from heaven appeared to him and strengthened him. And being in anguish , he prayed more earnestly , and his sweat was like drops of blood falling to the ground." - Luke 22:43,44

"...and he began to be deeply distressed and troubled. 'My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death ,' he said to them." - Mark 14:33,34

"I have eagerly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer ." - Luke 22:15

"On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. Men will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world..." - Luke 21:25,26

"How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers!" ...For then there will be great distress , unequaled form the beginning of the world until now - and never to be equaled again." - Matt. 24:19,21

"Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be earthquakes in various places, and famines. These are the beginning of birth pains ." - Mark 13:8

<<I hope this post helps you understand some of these concepts. .....I dealt with that question when I pointed out that time is a created thing. Multidimensional physics is a difficult thing for most people to conceptualize, but it is Biblical.

God created time. The terms you use—such as "Before"—is a term that denotes thinking—or in your case—asking a question within the realm of time. God not only created >> (note use of past tense by yourself) <<this universe and it's multidimensional structure, He created time itself.>> (again note use of past tense)

<<I know that it's difficult to get your mind wrapped around the idea of time being a created thing, but give it a try. >>

Do you run Red lights when you drive?
if not you belive in time. And live in the realm of time, yourself.
Do you know what I will post next? If so tell me now.
if you cannot you are totally subject to time, and only blowing smoke.

<<The best and only way to discover deep truth is to get yourself out of the way. How we "feel" about truth is completely irrelevant and is a clear indication that you have not discovered this fact (the importance of getting yourself out of the way) as of yet.
...Truth is not about how we feel. That is incidental.>>

Again you don't realize YOU are really run by feelings or unconcious belifes--not ideas as you would like to think...
Again...do you run Red lights when you drive? if not you belive in time.
And probably fear death as well.

Quote:
Deep experiential spirituality maybe manifested for example as the ability to immolate oneself as the Buddhist monks did during the Vietnam war, and would not seem to be dependent upon intellectual arguments as to the truth or falsity of Darwinian Evolutionary Theory.
But this depth is very rare of course. I just have to learn to accept myself as I am. If I can't do that, how can I escape judging "others"?

<<Escaping judging others is not the end-all goal of truth. Furthermore, the states reached by monks deal with and are related to emotion. >>

I agree it's about facts.
Do you use anesthetic when you go to the dentist?
Are you indifferent to all pain?
We agree that most organized religion is superficial.

<<In fact, every religion in the world subjectively "reveals" truth using the emotions as a guide to some extent. However, the Bible says not to find truth this way.>>

The bible maybe wonderful and beautiful to some people BUT What the bible says is of no importance in a court of law, or as a "talking point" in any logical argument--it is simply an appeal to Authority by those who FEEL it is an Authority, and thus any appeal to it is obviously feeling based, and a failure to understand what is meant by objective standards...or science.

<<Religion is a man-made thing. I'm talking about truth—What is truth.
If God is real, than it is true that God is real regardless of any man's religion. Does that make sense. >>

Obviously...no arguement here

<<I hope that makes this conversation a little more clear. Religion is essentially entertainment,...>>

No it's not. It fullfills deep psychological needs.

<<...and that has come to fruition in today's "Churches". God is about a personal relationship that changes your life literally forever. I experience this relationship. It is part of my life. >>

Sounds good, on paper...however at this point whatever it means in practice for you is anybody's guess.

<<Unfortunately, because most people assume that others are like themselves, they assume that discussions like this are coming from an emotional place. This is not true with me. I understood a long time ago that a search for truth is not to be guided by my own personal desires or emotions.>>

...Again this sounds good...but when it comes to logic your appeal to the authority of the bible, which fails any test of logic or objectivity, but which you love, shows that you have no grasp of leaving yourself out of anything.

<< It is external to me (and you).

Quote:
...It seems you believe that there is a conspiracy or conspiracies afoot to keep folks hoodwinked. This seems far-fetched when you consider for a moment one example which is typical: That large corporations that pollute also harm the bosses and their families. Of course in many ways the very rich are rather insulated. It is a true that they can buy "Justice" and keep their kids out of the army, but this is a Truism not a Hidden Conspiracy.
Quote

<<Well, there are a few things that I know a thing or two about, and that is conspiracies. They are not for guessing, or for deciphering by your emotions (as you stated in the next paragraph where you said "it would seem to me").>>

"seems to me" does not mean the same thing as " I feel". I know that it's difficult to get your mind wrapped around this subtlety.

<<Conspiracies are clear and open to study. They are easy to find. A global conspiracy, in fact, is very hard to cover up.>>

So what? You completely miss the point that folks are by and large agressive, greedy,
selfish, and fairly self destructive, ( partly due to stored unconcious pain and hurt ) and of rather moderate intelligence, coupled with extremly high vanity, etc.. Given this mix, it only takes the folly of civilization to light the fuse...
...If you read the bible you love so much, more carefully you might get that this is what the story of "the Garden of Eden" refers to metaphorically. Civilization begins with the transition to agriculture, ( from the hunter-gatherer stage) and adding grain to the diet; which makes possible greater population, a standing army, and taxes etc. Which of course make possible all the goodies of "civilization" like war and prisons. This process is unfortunately repeated again and again through out history on different continents. There is no need for any conspiracies. Again and again humans mistreat one another wontonly, in unbelievable ways, at the drop of a hat. This is history, not paleontology.
Only now logorithmic growth of technology has been added to the mix--making the world situation more volitile, nothing mysterious.

<<The best place to start research is in law to understand how those who conspire use law to tie you up into UCC contracts (ever see an American flag with a yellow fringe around it?). Again, it's very important to remember that this idea about global conspiracies is not my idea. It's what I learned through research. I wish it were not true but there no guesswork about it. The only reason you don't believe in or understand global conspiracies is because you have never studied them. ...>>

On the contrary, as with the Kennedy assasination...conspiracies are irrelevant--wether Communist, "Democratic", or a Dictatorship--all governments are and always have been corrupt--SH+T rises to the top, just like cream---this is as old as the hills--nothing new--nothing shocking here...the folks at the bottom are always oppressed, and the poor frightened folks at the "top" addicted to power are driven by unconcious fears. Partly due to stored unconcious pain and hurt; which is partly held in place by beliving one is free of being run by feelings. I know that it's difficult to get your mind wrapped around the idea of repression applying to us all, not just those in therapy, but give it a try. If it doesn't make you feel too uncomfortable to really begin to explore feelings.

<<you had better get busy.>>

Again i disagree:
You don't have to get busy, you can stick to the beliefs you are comfortable with,
we all do our best, ... "muddy water becomes clear by not stirring it up", and you are probably an even kinder person than you realize, when you're not desperate to prove a point, and maintain a world view that gives you some sense of hope.

Your logic sort of got lost on me Bill not Bill, when you asked who created God.

I mean it seems ok to you to assume that the earth and all of the life on it just sort of happened all by itself but then you ask who created God.

Can you clarify this major oxymoron in your argument for me please?

I realize that in context of Bill notBill it may make sense but we need the theory of evolution to flow smoothly and coherently in all aspects. Big bang notBigbang somehow just doesn't quite do it.

God is spirit by the way, just in case you decide to veer off on an intangible tangent about life on this rock we call earth.

Also Bill, notBill, You are being decietful, admit it.

You are ignoring things such as this:

http://www.smh.com.au/news/business...6/05/05/1146335926326.html?page=fullpage

in order to present your argument in a favorable light without too much trouble. Therefore, you are not only notBill, you are also notComfortable with mysteries, paradoxes and ambiguities as you state above.

Mysteries, which are a mystery to you because you have not experienced such things. But of course you have experienced evolution so that is not a mystery. You are also ignoring things that remain mysterious to you such as the salvation experiences of so many Christians whose testimonies are endless.. miracles worked in their lives, the awesome presence of God('s spirit) in order to make your illogical argument seem to make sense to others who have experienced things you have not experienced.

It doesn't work Bill, notBill. noGo, naDa. noConvince.

I do not believe you exist Bill, notBill. What is in a name? not. And I have never seen you with my eyes. Perhaps it is a premonition.

I do believe it is evident that it is you who is insecure with the beliefs, and experiences, of others.

Funny though, you do believe you are the spawn of a puppy zygote. maybe knotBill, unshackle your brain. There is more to life than what your eyes have seen. there are many things they obviously have notseen. But please do not assume others have notseen either.

Try a different shelf in the library for awhile.

notBill,

You're really making some comments that just don't make sense. Such as this:


You are again coming to conclusions based on vast and incorrect assumptions.

Based on what you posted above, you somehow believe that you would have to be able to foretell the future in order to conclude that time is a created thing.

These conclusions I have drawn are based on derived information. That is, you don't have to know and understand everything about something to get useful information about it.

Let me give you an example. How does science know which way stars are moving in relation to our own planet? It's derived information. It's based on red/blue shift. That is to say that we know this because we understand things that are related and connected, but we don't know everything about the core subject.

Make sense?

Think about it and consider that a person does not have to be able to accurately predict the future in order to understand that time is a created thing. Time is the fourth dimension of space. Keep that in mind.


You are so wrong.

You are again making the mistake of assuming that others are like you. You really should consider that there are indeed people in the world who are not like you. I'm not saying you are bad, so please don't be offended. I'm just saying that you make vast assumptions based on your perceptions which are clearly very subjective.

I do have the ability to remove my emotions from a situation when I am analyzing it. I have also found that the people who are most skilled at judging any given situation are able to analyze them without doing what is called "projecting", that is, putting their own emotional spin on something. It takes hard work to achieve this, however, which is why many don't.


Now listen; this is very important. Pain, as you give in this example, has nothing to do with the type of "feelings" that we are speaking about. Emotional predispositions and physical pain are completely different.

I think somewhere you must know this (perhaps) but you are failing to distinguish these very important facts which makes an intelligent conversation difficult.


Again: You could not be more wrong.

You certainly know nothing about the foundation of freedom—nothing.

The courts of law were based on Biblical law in the United States and were very effective. Eventually, they were changed until the "system" no longer "works" (as they say) because of the man-made changes. Biblical law is the foundation of the constitution and has nothing to do with feelings. It has to do with what is called "Natural Law", which is a law that logically flows from the predefined rules in the physical world. In other words, God does things logically.

Based on what you are saying, you know nothing of the Bible at all yet you speak as if you are an expert. The problem can only be that you have received all of your information from a flawed source.

There are massive amounts of physical evidence that support the Bible. It has foretold the future, predicted the outcomes of archaeological digs, and has been a source of unchanging wisdom that has held the world together in multiple ways. Your conclusions that a belief in the Bible is based on feeling may be true for some, but a true intellect does nothing of the sort.

Again, if you really care about truth, I challenge you to read the books I recommended.

You see, people become educated about what they care about.

If you like sports, you will know who won the game or who the MVP is. If you care about family, you will be up on all that is going on with family. If you care about truth, you will study and learn. If not, well, you will eventually accept the Biblically-predicted mark of Revelation 13 as the final symbol of apathy.


Just because something fulfills a need does not mean that it's execution is motivated by that purpose. Consider "eating with your head" as a simplified example. Runners hydrate long before they feel thirsty. Athletes perform carbo-loading long after they are sick of carbos.

The Bible is accurate and true, and the only reason you have not discovered that is because you don't care. If you do care, you will start studying and will eventually learn what countless people have already learned over thousands of years. Leave your preconceived ideas at the door. They are inaccurate.

I will also warn you, don't get your Biblical information from T.V. They lie about the Bible constantly. Textbooks also contain misinformation. Also, don't get your Bible information from a church. The only way to get it accurately is to read it for yourself. So, if you care, you know what to do.


I'll give you a few examples of what it means.

Sometimes, it means knowing the future. I have spiritual impressions about what is going to happen in the future at times and have avoided great trouble because I was humble enough to listen. This leads to improving the quality of life.

The experiences I've had with God have been life changing and amazing. He had guided my life and helped me avoid trouble when I've asked. There have been several events on my life that have no natural explanation. Again, want more? Ask.

Realize though, that these are not the primary reason I believe the Bible is amazing and accurate. I believe these things about the Bible for two reasons:

(1) Prophecy

(2) Gematria

The Bible is saturated with both of these amazing attributes and is unlike any other book I've ever encountered.


No, I don't miss that point at all.

To make my point clear to you, perhaps I should ask you if you really think most high-level crimes are:

(1) well known, and
(2) performed by only one person.


Conspiracies are irrelevant only if you want to remain ignorant about real solutions to real problems and have no concern for justice. What a horrible thing to say.


No, not always. This is yet another gross generalization that you have made. Do you know what the exceptions are?

These exceptions are times when people did something differently. Do you know what that is?

There are very real patterns to be found here if you're willing to look, and when you find the patterns, you gain the knowledge necessary to change your life.

It's up to you.


Doing what you are comfortable with is living according to your emotions, and if emotions are selfish, then this is a selfish way to live. Only if you begin to make decision with your mind can you break out of this mindset that you're in.

Additionally, you have judged me completely inaccurately.

You need to understand that I am not desperate to prove a point. I am excited and happy to have this discussion with you because thousands are watching and when I answer your questions wisely, they have the opportunity to gain freedom from the false beliefs that currently hold you in your current state.

I love doing this and am not desperate about this conversation. I'm thrilled for the opportunity, for my greatest reward in life is when someone with "eyes to see" understands these concepts and improves the quality of their life as a result.

I can clearly see that you don't take the time to accurately decipher information (truth) and have therefore not reached the important, life-changing conclusions (truth) that set you free. Instead you continue to misapply the idea that "muddy water becomes clear by not stirring it up". I know what this saying means but you should realize that you quoted it completely out of context from it's intended meaning.

The bottom line is that we are all where we are mostly because of who we are and what we have done. If you choose not to learn what I have which leads to the emotional freedom, empowerment, and reward that I experience, then you have done it to yourself. It's there for the taking, but you have to work for it.

Please—for your own good—take my advice and read the books that I suggested in my previous post.

When you read the following quote, and when the moment of truth comes—and it will—don't ever claim that you didn't have an opportunity to take a different road.


[color:"brown"]"And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six."[/color]

—Revelation 13:16-18


[color:"brown"]"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."[/color]

—Revelation 20:4

The "where did god come from" answer is not a satisfactory rebuttle. Evolutionists face the same question when faced with the unfathomable and enormous amounts of energy contained in the universe. The energy contained and emitted from the sun alone is mind boggling. You would have to explain where such energy originated.
It is also a self defeating concept. You are cancelling out earlier evidence that you understand based on the fact that it leads you to ideas and concepts you don't understand.