I just started to see a naturopath, and she suggested that I do a heavy metal and cortisol saliva test for my symptoms. I got the results back and I had tested high for mercury. There were also some slight problems with the saliva test, but its over my head and complicated. I feel that my mercury level is the root of all the evil. So she suggested DMSA for 2 months, but no mention of amalgram removal (i have 11). After doing intital research, I would like to go through that route, but still have a few basic questions.
1. what are the safest replacement fillings? 2. how much is this going to cost roughly?
I am a 23 year old male that graduated college 1.5 years ago and still have not gotten a job because of my symptoms which got suddendly severe around the time i graduated. so the past year and half i've been through two pyschiatrists, two therapists, a bunch of SSRI's (antidepressants) and bi-polar medicine that did absolutely nothing.( i was "diagnosed" with bi-polar but i think that is a bunch of BS)
symptoms-> 'brain fog', fatigue (i.e. feel tired even when i wake up), insomnia, anxiety, depression and non-existant libido also some wierd secondary physcical symptoms ---> my bones crack a lot, lymph node on my neck enlarge cyst on my wrist always enlarged (theres a name for the cyst but i forget the name) and premature ejaculation. (anyone have any of these)? also have white spots/lines on my fingernails, but im not sure if they are mees' lines
also anyone in the delaware area that could reccomend a dentist? I think i already have a few canidates that i'm going to email/call tomorrow.
hi dizeerascal: welcome to the forum , you have come to the right place to help cure yourself , because as many of us on this forum have found out that most doctors don't know squat about mercury poisoning . my fist recommendation would be to purchase the book ' amalgam illness" by andy Cutler it will explain what you need to know about mercury poisoning and how to cure yourself and what suppliments will help during the whole process , many of us have been down the antidepressant highway and for me they made my symptoms worse , the cost of replacement is different with each dentist
I had 9 filling removed and replaced with composite fillings and cost me around $2000.00 dollars U.S . curency
make sure you find a dentist that removes the amalgam filling safely ,there are biocompadability test that are available thru most holistic dentist that will tell you what dental replacment materials are best for you , the following web sight has a list of dentist that know how to remove them safely
you are young and should recover very quickly once the filling are removed
for low libido I have had good results with the herb tribulus 500 mg daily,
for premature ejaculation 50 mg daily of Zinc will help greatly with this problem it helps lower estrogen levels which is the main cause of premature ejaculation problems in men
I also recommend Saw Palmetto to prevent the conversion to dht which will prevent hairloss and prostate problems in the future
these 3 suppliments are very helpful for most men
you should see results in a week after starting the suppliments
HI, sorry to hear you are suffering this. Many of us here can relate to what you have and are going through (plus not being able to get into the working world). I have also been through the psychology stuff, anxiety courses, the lot. NONE of it made any difference to me or helped in anyway. Antidepressants included. I was at a loss at what to do.
The only thing that helped me was being put on a candida diet, which enabled more health to return to my mercury poisoned system and depression improved/lifted, plus anxiety. I was still mercury toxic however. Later, I had amalgams removed, but had no idea about the proper procedures and stupidly rushed in. Did not know about proper testing for materials either. I seemed to get away with it though, but later my body erupted into trying to detox the stored mercury and it was pretty hellish. I was not warned about this and didn't know what was going on. Following a proper effectiveness mercury chelating protocol finally began to get me on the right track. I also found that certain antioxidants were very helpful to me also and I think precipitated a certain amount of metal elimination too in the process, though only the mercury that my body was already attempting to eliminate. Vitamin C, Vitamin E and selenium and Zinc seemed to be the ones that did that. Though if you are going to take them, start slow, start small to check for any reactions. When you are VERY toxic, it does not take much to set your symptoms off worse. A bit of detox from antioxidants can do that. But I don't believe they cure mercury poisoning because they are not in themselves chelating agents. And I found that DMSA taken the right way did that for me! I did get well eventually. My sufferings now are more related to viral infection (in 2003), which I did not recover from and possibly I still have some mercury left over too.
As for safe dental materials? I have heard cerec porcelain is a good choice because it is hard and doesn't tend to leach out its components, plus is apparently biocompatible. However it is highly expensive.
As for composites? that is very much an individual thing. You maybe wise to get yourself tested in anyway you can. The more testing to narrow down which materials come out ok on most tests, the better. Some people don't bother with this and do ok. But those that are concerned about possible reactions or going from the fire into the frying pan, particularly if they are very toxic and sensitive, may want to get a blood serum test done. Here is one place that does it in the US: Click on this link --> http://www.ccrlab.com/ There are others, but I cannot recall them. I hope someone else will.
The costs vary re amalgam removal and replacement. The best way is to email some biologic dentists and ask for a vague estimate at least before commit yourself further. Also wise to ask what procedures they follow during amalgam removal, to ensure you are going to be fully protected. You do NOT want a slack dentist or one that is not following things properly. Exposure to mercury via remova can result in a devastating outcome. Ask Jinx on here! It is probably much wiser to do things little at a time, to lessen your exposure as much as possible with full protection. E.g. perhaps 2 teeth at a time might be ok. Depends again on the expertise and protection that dentist willl provide.
I would not take any chelating agents (e.g. DMSA etc) when you still have amalgams, in case you make things worse. Some people "can" do it and find it helps, others get worse. It maybe wise to hold off until you have ALL amalgams COMPLETELY removed.
Also, taking chelating agents (e.g. DMSA) in the wrong way can result in a wild movement of mercury resulting in redistribution. This is like a backfire effect when the mercury is moved around and may settle in more sensitive areas (e.g. the brain) and make you much worse. It does again depend on the individual, but I would highly recommend you look into the work of Andrew Hall Cutler, who has studied and worked with mercury toxic people for many years. he has cured himself and is helping and even curing many others with his tried and tested/logical and safer protocol.
I highly recommend to you to get his book "amalgam Illness, Diagnosis and Treatment" by Andrew Hall Cutler. It is available on this forum (top left of screen in yellow). I have it and I cannot tell you how valuable this book was to me! The safest protocol I have ever used and one that finally did not cause me insane symptoms. You can also check his book out here on this link http://www.lymebook.com/mercury
You can also 'ask the doctor" on that site too (options at the top of that screen) who might be able to help you in this search also.
With mercury is often the condition of candida. It is often overlooked and can cause a great deal of similar symptoms to mercury or maybe mistaken to be ALL mercury related. In treating candida, you may find improvements and sometimes dramatic. I highly recommend you go on a candida diet as many here have done or are doing. For me, without this diet, I would probably not be here now! It is often essential to help handle the mercury in your system.
candida diet - no sugar in any form, no gluten, limited non gluten grain (or eliminate completely), limited or no fruit, no high carbs like corn, potatoes etc. no millk or cheese, no honey, no yeast.
Concentrate on eating mainly healthy foods that will not feed the candida yeast in your body. candida apparently makes mercury more toxic, plus allows the mercury to do more damage because candida messes up the liver and the gut. The liver and gut are required to help you detox and handle other toxins. If candida is high you can be REALLY sick and wind up going in circles.
You can eat freely - meats, eggs (unless you find sulfur foods stir your symptoms up too much, mercury is typical for that), vegetables, acidophilus plain sugar free yoghurt, almonds/brazil nuts, seeds (pumpkin and sunflower), herbal tea (oust the coffee if you can, it doesn't help).
You may get away with having "some" fruit and "some" milk and some grain (as long as it is non gluten grain). But I had to go on the more stricter diet this time around. There are variations of the candida diet which can be confusing, but you get a pretty good idea what is definitely not allowed and what foods are negligible.
You can go through an intitial detox, which can make you feel pretty revolting for awhile and crave the very foods that the yeast requires to survive. So it can be a real battle and test of will power for a time until the cravings settle. You "should" experience improvement in a few weeks or maybe even earlier, depending on how serious the condition is. It took me a few weeks and the improvement was at that time quite incredible. It also helps your body absorb nutrients more, restores functioning in some areas, aids everything you can imagine. Skin, hormones, hair, eyes, and everything internal as well.
You can look up candida symptoms online and see if you recognise any of them. Because it may well be adding to your mercury toxic condition and causing more havoc than you realise.
By the way, pumpkin seeds apparently are good for the prostate etc and contain Zinc....
I second everything Mike and Bex have said. They know what they are talking about and that is all quality sound advice.
My 50 cents………………
1) Ignore any mercury advice the naturopath gave you. The advice to take DMSA for 2 months without getting the amalgams out is seriously wrong and could seriously hurt you. It may NOT hurt you……….. but it may make all your symptoms much much worse for a long long time. Not worth the risk to my mind. Do not detox mercury with anything with any amalgams still in your mouth. 2) Buy ' amalgam illness" by andy Cutler – seriously this will save your from trouble, you can self diagnose and you will know you are not alone and that it what you have is curable. FYG - All your symptoms ring great big mercury alarm bells. 3) Buy “its all in your head” by Hal Huggins – this will tell you why and how you have been poisoned 4) Diet is real important. Really really important. Seriously. 5) Whatever you do, under no circumstances are you to get amalgam removed without a safe protocol….thats minimum rubber dam and oxygen. I don’t care how little money you have, amalgam removal without proper protection will screw you up. That is a guarantee. Many people massively regret just going to a regular dentist and having them out unsafely. I am one of them. I had one out of 8 taken out without protection and all my symptoms when crazy and i don’t want anyone to go through what I had to go through…….better to leave them in, get them out when you can afford it. It took me 9 months to get mine removed safely after I screwed up that first time. All the in-between time was recovery time. As I said don’t do what I did because it hurts
Loc: Lost on a mountain USA
Using dmsa will not seriously hurt you. I have been chelating for 11 months, not all that time with dmsa however. Andy Cutler is the dmsa god to a lot of people but the guy is not even a doctor. his advice contradicts the advice of hundreds perhaps thousands of real doctors with whole bunches more experience than himself who actually do real chelation. personally i don't consider Cutler's routine to be real chelation. sorry sunshine, I admit. It is a 'form' of chelation only. Using just DMSA and expecting it to relieve you completely of mercury poisoning in a reasonable amount of time is not very pragmatic. It's simply an available route toward that effort, it;s sort of the cheap way out. Your NP probably knows of other options as well.
Getting your amalgams removed by someone who isn't real good at it is real dangerous, that's a fact.
I'd follow the directions of the NP, make sure you get some tests done by him on a regular basis to see where you are at.
removing that many amalgams will cost you several thousand dollars minimum. You will probably have to do a couple at atime only. the biological dentists are very expensive. If you can find a regular dentist that knows how to cut the amalgam and lift it out you can go that route too. I had one done that way by a regular dentist without any side effects. Do not let any dentist try to drill the thing down, that's the danger.
using prescription drugs while chelating may not be real helpful. perhaps your NP can help with that as well.
one thing I did that was real helpful was I visited a biological dentist just for electrical testing. they have these wire things that they clip to your tooth and can get a reading of the charge being emitted by the metal. i had one that was pretty much off the charts. When they hooked the wire thing to it I about flipped out of the chair, real weird. Anyway, i had that tooth pulled, it was an old molar with a huge filling, it was cracked up. But, removing that tooth made a huge difference to me. i still have 5 or 6 amalgams left and am doing quite well. Yes I chelate, but not according to the Cutler protocol. I had a doctor start me off with it.
Sorry sosick, I'd have to disagree with you here. Andy Cutler is not a dmsa god. He's dealt in this particular area for many years and has had to UNDO plenty of chelation botch up jobs by so-called doctors who typically prescribe protocols that have done this to people. Just check out frequent dose forum and ask on there.
Actually yes DMSA can harm a person seriously if it is taken in the wrong manner. I've been there and read about others in the same place. Effects are horrible as with anything that chelates and has the potential to redistribute mercury when used incorrectly. Again, I realise that there are those out there that can do almost anything and detox themselves of this poison. But don't underestimate the impact of what it may do to other people.
Doctors screwed me up badly everytime I wanted advice for mercury chelation. Andy Cutler is the one that got me right and I was able to keep chelating and actually function to "some" degree without being completely flat on my back or screaming like a lunatic.
DMSA is far from the cure! DMSA is in fact only used in the early stages to help speed up the process of blood reduction of mercury. In fact, Andy mentions DMSA as optional and people can skip it if they really wish to do that. And can wait a few months and then chelate with Alpha Lipoic Acid, which chelates organs and brain.
Doctors having more experience than Andy? Wow, this guy deals with people in reality and online almost 24/7, by email, by phone, on forums, in reality. One guy I know was phoning andy almost constantly because he wanted his help over being screwed up by a doctor's chelation advice and was in a right state.
Doctors are probably far from specialised in the area of mercury considering how many others things they have to deal with. Andy basically deals with mercury, this is his life! And all power to him, he's helped a hell of a lot of very sick people.
I don't consider anybody a god of anything, I look at results and this is what he gives many who use his protocol. Safety included. If people want to refer to him as a guru, so be it. I'm sure andy isn't interested in that status either, he just gets on with it.
Loc: Lost on a mountain USA
Bex, there are doctors who specialize in heavy metal poisoning.
You did not go to one did you?
When I suspected mercury posioning the very first thing I did was find a specialist. The very last place I would have headed was a general practioner. General practioners give physicals and basic blood tests, they might be able to set a broken bone, but even at that they are not specialists for rea; bad breaks.
When you really are sick, you find a specialist. When you are not sick, you can visit your GP for a cholesterol check.
Try searching on google for doctors who specialize in heavy metal chelation. you'll find plenty. They have more training, special training for this area specifically, and they do know what they are doing. Mine did anyway, he was the best. I can assure you he has a lot more experience than andy Cutler, and he knows the smiling faces of his patients personally. People fly in from all over thecountry to see this doctor. he cures people from cancer bex. i met quite a few.
thanks for the quick and thorough responses. lots of information, but very overwhelming.
i took a urine heavy metals test with dsma for a 6 hr period. but im reading that andy Cutler does not think these are tests aren't great indicators of diagnosis? [censored]. i am looking at doing a hair test, but are there even that might not be a good indicator? anyone have experience with the best method for diagnosis?
i just want to be 100% positive that i do indeed have these effects from mercury before i spend big bucks on new fillings. by the way i was thinkin around $4,000 is the amount i'd be looking at, I just want to get a ballpark figure, because i have no idea, not even a range.
i'll probably be getting the amalgram illness book soon and the others eventually
as for diet, my naturopath put on my an organic autoimmune breakfast which really helped my allergies. it contains pumpkins seeds, sunflower seeds, raisins, flaxseed, lecithin, and oats. i'll be checkin out that canidia diet soon.
Loc: Lost on a mountain USA
you need a heavy metal chelation specialist doctor. make sure he is licensed.
check your private messages.
I started with urine and fecal tests and heavy metal blood tests. there are more than that but just those few cost me quite a bundle, about 1500.00 just for the intial tests. they are adequate to get started. they will not start chelation without having a clear indication of what they are after so you will need real blood tests of some sort done. Often when you suspect mercury you will show a combo of other stuff too, it all ties in together to make you sick. they will chelate showing low levels but they still need to do the tests, required by law I think.
Sosick, I did go to specialists. All well known in my country and had to travel to see two of them.
I just had too many side effects and had to opt out of the protocols being given t me. Apart from one who was good and gave me homeopathy. But I could not continue to afford traveling to see him and was not able to simply get by with requesting the same homeopathic treatment. He would have to re-test and adjust it according to the results. That's how he worked. But I did not wish to continue to travel. One other doctor/specialist had me on a typical protocol of high dose chlorella, high dose DMSA (3 times a week), which caused problems with me big time. And I hear others too.
So I moved on and got Andy's book and was then able to understand why I was having the problems I was having. One specialist has also read Andy Cutler's book and was so impressed, she photo copied it. They are constantly searching for a better protocol/ Why would this specialist who has been to mercury toxic conferences in US be interested in trying Andy Cutler's protocol if in fact she knew all there was to know? Or they had already hit on the ideal protocol for most people? Here is a guy less qualified than her and she photocopies his book........at least she was open enough and humble enough without allowing the letters after her name to send her ego soaring and deciding he was too beneath her to even read it. She was pretty impressed and admitted the protocol made sense. It doesn't mean she used it, I don't know what she does now, but she was open to give it a hearing. This is what a doctor should be. If they think they know all there is to know, we're in big trouble.
The other specialist "Dr Mike Godfrey" admitted to me that he did not wish to use DMSA, because he felt (at that time) there was no method known yet to prevent mercury redistribution into worse and more sensitive areas. he was well aware many of his colleagues used it. This guy was a specialist, still is and won't use the stuff. I don't know if he has heard of Cutler since.
I consider Andy a specialist considering his safety record and how many people are using the protocol and giving good reports. Reading his book and using his methods and finding they work, whilst others have many times failed doesn't make the apparent specialists look too good considering he's an apparent ignoramus? Or near enough to because he doesn't have the right letters after his name? One only has to look at his track record with kids and adults, both mercury poisoned and autistic to see his methods are catching on and doing well.
Andy actually works with doctors around the world on patients and many more are taking on his methods......He will not work with a patient unless the doctor is involved. However his book provides the clueless and those without the finance to have a way through this and so far I don't see many complaints about his information?
I've seen positive feedback the majority of the time.
Loc: Lost on a mountain USA
hmm. I'm not sure sure homeopathy enters the realm of medicine for me. I meant doctors, licensed physicians who go against mainstream medicine and practice things that actually help people, like chelation. Don't get me wrong though, I love healing herbs and natural remedies, they are my number 1, but i just am not even close to being convinced anything in homeopathoc amounts would be effective against something as ferocious as mercury or lead, cadmium, whatever. Though a teaspoon or two of cilantro did help my headaches early on, but still a full teaspoon is way above homeopathic amounts. I have used homeopathic tinctures way way back in the past, i found them utterly ineffective for anything past mood lifting.
But anyway, not everyone agrees with Cutler, Bex. here for instance is a page from a Dr with an autistic kid which says this somewhere down in the middle. i think it's obvious who she's talking about:
Finally, there are as many dosing schedules for DMSA as there are practitioners who make claims about it. As perhaps a ridiculous extreme, one practitioner has asserted that DMSA must be given every two to three hours around the clock! This person also insists that failure to follow this schedule will result in more mercury being deposited in the brain. Fortunately, this is absolutely wrong! Doses as infrequent as once a week have been effective at removing mercury and lead, although at a much slower rate than the recommended dosing schedule of three times a day.
Sosick, Dr Godfrey specialises in heavy metal toxicity/environmental toxicity and is well known and well respected even overseas http://www.healthy.co.nz/healthy-developments-news-item-138.html. However, his homeopathy happens to be powerful and effective for even mercury, sometimes too much so. I had to stop and start on much lower dosing. He uses IV DMPS chelation apparently but does so in proper fashion without so many of the injuries caused by other physicians, but was hesitant with me due to my hyper sensitivity reactions. Ive used homeopathy before and had no improvements. With his, I found improvements. I think he knew exactly what he was talking abut.
But homeopathy aside, I went to other doctors- specialists as I mentioned in my previous post who did use chelation (DMPS IV, DMSA, ALA, etc etc) and again it did not work out, it made me worse. Their methods/protocols were similar to what I hear others being screwed up by.
I did not suggest everybody agreed with Cutler. But often the criticisms come by those that have often not even TRIED it or read his book. Nor can they seem to cite backfire effects as such...makes no sense given the help it's giving to many people like myself. You don't find such criticisms of those that have read the book and used the protocol. I'm sure some are out there, but I keep coming across more positive than much else! I have heard people misquote his protocol by exaggerating it or twisting it. Or simply making it seem ridiculous without citing Cutler's reasons for it. It was designed to reduce the risks of wild mercury movement, which is why it is taken every 3-4 hours around the clock. INconvenient as this is and hardly the manner anybody wants to take anything, it is the only way he's discovered to keep symptoms from becoming completely intolerable for many people. In years of work and experiementing on himself, he found this to be the most logical and it has shown to be exactly that.
How can more mercury go into the brain by Andy's frequent dosing? It's designed to reduce or even prevent this from occuring. Which is the entire point of the protocol. DMSA taken in high periodic doses or even low periodic doses results in a redistribution of mercury which then allows the mercury to go anywhere and everywhere, and often into the brain. DMSA does not cross the blood brain barrier itself like cilantro and ALA, but can increase brainmercury simply by infrequent dosing and enabling the mercury itself to go into worse and more sensitive areas. mercury has no problem passing into the brain and when mobilised, has much more chance of doing so - thus no doubt explaining the intolerable and often insane symptoms people can experience unless they keep blood levels of chelating agents stable and consistent.
This person you have quoted has not even been able to explain the problem with frequent dosing other than criticising it, without explanation.....this really doesn't mean much to me at all. Andy at least will go into depth to explain exactly what happens with mercury and why after years of study and experimentation he discovered the safest way of removing it from the body.
Do you think we just got sick and got straight onto Cutler? Most of us have already been around the block many times and often have already seen specialist in this field, before discovering that we could actually chelate without the risk of insanity or agonising symptoms and long term backfires from a guy less qualified.
brain damage from frequent dosing? There is no sense in this, doing it this way has saved me many times from being carted off. Many who has tried his protocol would probably understand how it's prevented so much redistribution symptoms in them and reduced the risk for that redistributed mercury to wind up where we do not want it (brain/nervous System).
You only have to go on the frequent dose forum and ask questions there to find that out.
Andy Cutler does not suggest chelating longer than a few months with DMSA and nor does he give massive high dose suggestions. Usually it is 3 months and then onto ALA.
Again it is about safety and results. Applying his advice, particularly for the most toxic and sensitive and finding it is more often than not the better tolerated and safer, is more than enough for me.
No it is not the only protocol out there and not the only one I and others have attempted to use. Frankly I find the frequent dosing irritating and inconvenient and nobody likes waking up at night to take a dose, but I know of no other way that reduces such high risk of other methods and for many this is the only method they can use...
If I could have stuck with other stuff I would have and so would anybody. It's amazing what people will do to keep things at a tolerable level and the inconvenient dosing far outweighs the inconvenience of severe backfire symptoms (pain is a great motivator).
Your protocol works well for you and no doubt others have had similar success. I am not downgrading that, but if people have been hurt by stuff like cilantro and ALA taken the wrong way, I think we're obligated to point that out if it's serious enough. I don't consider serious side effects or irreversible damage that Andy has mentioned a minor problem. I think it's worthy of reporting. I no longer feel at ease about suggesting other means when I don't hear enough reports on it.
Loc: Lost on a mountain USA
Well it's quite good to hear there are homeopathic remedies. I wonder though, if you asked Dr Godfrey if he would do IV chelation on someone with amalgams, would he answer yes or no, never? That is actually what we were discussing right?
The problem i have with Cutler's mercury entering brain theory is that it seems to overlook the fact that even without chelation a mercury toxic person has mercury in the blood and other places all the time, leeching from amalgams etc. If chelation helps clean the blood of these already present items what exactly is this theory truly based on? Is he saying that without chelation the mercury is not causing problems? It is stable? Because that would obviously be nonsense. So what else does he base that idea on? You have never explained that to me. And I have never experienced any bad effects from chelation except of course the intial 4-6 weeks of yuck that everyone goes through amalgams or not.
I think if you want more info about things mentioned on that page you might to do further research. it's jsut a blog i ran across and i don't have time to research it fully sorry. But it's written by a doctor just like your page is written by a doctor without long drawn out reseach attached. I suppose we could agree to let each page completely nullify each other but that would probably be a bit dumb.
What are you so upset about anyway? If someone criticizes Cutler a bit it's like you take it as a personal attack.. Is your life at stake here?
It's just one method, I know it works for some people. But all of those some people, with the exception of yourself sometimes, come around telling other people to never ever chelate with amalgams still in based on andy Cutler's advice and they couldn't be more wrong.
as I said, I am walking breathing proof of it. If I am reading these threads correctly, I seem to be in better than health than you Bex, and a lot of others here, despite all your expensive amalgam removals and fancy plastic dental work.
I am not saying amalgams are healthy, they are death have no doubt. But there are ways of approaching mercury and other heavy metal toxicity, with amalgams still in, that will give people their lives back. amalgam removal is very expensive. Only a small percentage of people are ever going to go that route immediately. Should we just give them all up for dead in the meantime because Andy Cutler says so?
Loc: Lost on a mountain USA
Plus, none of you ever bother to mention the fact that modern plastic composites contain uranium so that they can be imaged by dental xray equipment.
What trade off does a person really get by removing an old amlagam that is probably well leeched, and replacing it with a uranium filled plastic? i'd really like to know. My amalgams are 30 and 35 years old and you guys often yell at me for chelating. Why? Do you think I have more mercury in my mouth than i do in my feet? ask my fingernails where their mercury came from. Well they are a lot better but it's because i have been chelating.
Removing accumlated mercury and other heavy metals that has built up over the years makes a heck of a lot more sense to me at current, sorry.
My body has obviously dealt with this for years. I have found ways to keep my metal levels low. What really do i gain by adding a new load of uranium? Which btw, is a heck of a lot more toxic than mercury in extremely EXTREMELY low doses.
Perhaps it's the misreading the intention of the posts, but I get the impression you were upset by the ongoing promotion of a protocol that seems to be helping people on here and elsewhere..? I realise you are doing well, yu've mentioned this a number of times with your amalgams in, but you don't seem to take into account those that get hurt by such methods and we've had threads with people mentioning it on this very forum already... The first thing any good doctor or specialist should go by is "first do no harm".. if I've misread you I would apologise. But you haven't even tried his protocol, unless I"m mistaken? Did you read what happened to people using cilantro on that particular thread brought up quite sometime ago? Again is Andy lying about irreversible worsening from certain protocols?
I do not know if Dr Godfrey chelates people with amalgams in or not. He's a very cautious person, but so is a biologic dentist here and he detoxes patients with amalgams (using NDF), plus dietry and supplementary aids and claims a good track record. He sticks with it. It did not work out ok with me, but again it obviously worked with others.
My life is not at stake sosick if people criticise Cutler's protocol, but I fear for others when I hear the adverse reports on other protocols. So yes, I am dogmatic when it comes to that kind of thing. If long term or irreversible damage wasn't an issue, I wouldn't have one either I never used to be this strong on the issue. I recommended his protocol, as anybody recommended theirs...until the further adverse and serious reports of others.
I am not sure about Andy's stance on chelating with amalgams, that is something I am in two minds about because it seems people are very much either doing well with that or have had very bad results....again if there is high risk potential, it needs to be said instead of saying "well i'm ok with it, so they'll be ok too". I've herad a few people suggest they got worse....I never chelated with amalgams, so I have no idea either way. I can't be against it personally because I never did it. But I can be against it if it's potentially risking someone else to get much worse.....
I cannot help emotions coming into it when other people mention getting hurt....it makes it very hard to be open to other methods when you know the risks attached. I recommend Cutler's yes, but wouldn't careles about other ways people wish to chelate if there wasn't these reports. That's what I am trying to say.
By the way, your comments:
Quote: as I said, I am walking breathing proof of it. If I am reading these threads correctly, I seem to be in better than health than you Bex, and a lot of others here, despite all your expensive amalgam removals and fancy plastic dental work
Were somewhat unfair don't you think? Let's consider how many times I have mentioned my mercury toxic journey on here and how I got well from it. What happened later sosick? 2003 I wound up with a very obviously vicious viral/bacterial infection that I have never experienced before (even with past glandular fever) and something no doctor has been able to get results for or explain. I know what happened personally, but the circumstnaces were very bizzare but very real. This is outside of the mercury problem and has damaged me even more than mercury toxicity. AT least with mercury there are healing crisis and ability to eliminate metals with chelation. This is almost like aids, it DOESN'T go and leaves me in a permanent position of making marathon efforts to get some control of the situation....so you are hardly in a position to judge my health status regarding mercury toxicity when this is outside of that.
This is a very different matter and one that has impeded me severely, more than anything I've ever had. I do my best under the cirumstances and chelation no matter what I try (yes I've given cilantro a go and used DMSA as you suggested), nothing helps. So I assume mercury may not be such an issue these days.
Take the viral infection away and then compare our health status from a few years ago with the mercury issue and we'd come up with a very different senario...
You are certainly proof of your protocol and all power to you. I admire your tanacity as I do anybody who has suffered with this toxicity. I am not putting down other methods for the sake of a guy I don't even know (Cutler). I'm not getting paid for it either, hence the ongoing slow pay off of my new expensive dental materials.
Look, I don't know enough about your methods in all honesty. I am only reporting high risk senarios for the sake of other people. NO agenda here sosick, just wanting people to get well in the safest way possible. You are right of course, if people can get better by chelating with amalgams in, then yes it is wrong to prevent that. It is also wrong to ignore the other side of the issue - severe adverse effects....
So perhaps we'll just go around in circles on this issue because it's doubtful anybody has the perfect solution to all of this...they really don't. Even the specialists in my country don't or they woudn't have toxic patients continually coming back to get benefit forms filled out....there are cures, but most people struggle along for a long time trying to get this poison out one way or the other...hopefully in a manner that won't screw them up long term or even permanently.
I don't wish to argue with you personally, or score points because I'm not interested. just trying to do the right thing. Also you are mistaken, people here including myself have mentioned the potential of toxicity and allergy from other dental materials and the need to do testing beforehand - serum testing, possible gum and cheek testing etc. People are on here for amalgam toxicity....they wish to get their amalgams replaced for the most part.
What do you suggest? Yes these materials can contain other toxic chemicals, but I doubt I or anybody else has the ideal solution to amalgam. We can only advise testing beforehand which maybe far from perfect too. Perhaps we should all just say leave the amalgams in and chelate....? everybody is different and I don't see enough people in your situation to be able to judge.
Loc: Lost on a mountain USA
Bex, it is quite evident Cutler's method works. But the disagreement is not whether his method works but whether someone can chelate with amalgams in or not.
I don't know if Cutler's method woukd have worked for me when I was real sick Bex. Really I don;t. I do know that IV chelation gave me the ability to work again, to run instead limp.Within a few months. And now bex, I am skiing and feeling great. I really could not do this last year. My bones hurt too much. I would go out but I had to reall take it slow. no running. My bones really hurt. i could not kneel Bex, it hurt like heck.
I think if you take a little bit better look you will se people right here having daily issues of all sorts while using Cutler's protocol. That;'s chelation Bex. it's not fun in the early stages. If people say Iv chelation made them ill well i can find you plenty of posts right here of people who get sick while using Cutler's protocol too.
I know you got a virus Bex. i didn't, my immune system protects me. My world isn't germ free you know. I probably spend a lot more time outside getting bit by bugs than a lot of other people too.
Loc: Lost on a mountain USA
Bex, all he testing in the world will not help protect anyone against the toxicity of uranium.
One dentist put some of that junk in one of my teeth last year. I am so glad i got rid of it. I can't help but wonder how much that contributed to me being so sick. the darn thing was loaded with it, it showed up like a light bulb on xrays.
-also, you can call it high risk if you'd like. But personally i think finding a good licensed doctor with good training and a good reputation to get started with chelation is the low risk way to go. Self-diagnosing and using Cutler's method like most people seem to do simply because they read his book, seems like the high risk option to me.
Loc: Lost on a mountain USA
and don't forget the aluminum and the slow release flouride that's packed into the plastic composites and procelains too. Has anyone asked andy Cutler if its safe to chelate with all those other metals in your mouth?
Well, given my circumstances it was hard to know which way to go...leave amalgams in? Or take them out? Frankly I got to a point of almost tearing my hair out. You hear so many reports on both that in the end you feel impotent of doing anything.
All of these things have risks and particularly because each person is so different from everybody else. But mercury, being what it is, is the most toxic substance known to man, second only to plutonium....I think that makes it a standout! Yeah I know, uranium and the rest. What else do you propose we do?
yes there are toxic components in all dental materials, I doubt they have found a way of avoiding this unless we can all grow enamel properly. And if someone is badly reactive to plastic, then yes they may not have much choice but to leave things alone and do what they can, as you have done.
It's exhausting I know, and nobody wants to go from the frying pan into the fire...
however, mercury is also a neurotoxin and accummulates and given the time back, I think I would still get the stuff removed. It was puffing up my body tissues and causing me to look permanently slightly bloated. Even with a healthy diet! I managed to improve greatly with diet, but the massive withdrawal and detox effect after amalgam removal was more than enough to show me how much this poison had done to me for many years, how much was stored up and the dreadful suffering it caused to try and eliminate it...
Metal taste, metal stench, and the lot. I blamed my alternative dental materials at first because of the tremendous reaction to the withdrawal from amalgam, but later realised what it really was! Patience and chelation proved further it was metals coming out. But what pain to go through!
My later relapse from infection is a hard one to explain. And may show that there was indeed damage done by long term mercury poisoning for all those years, or may show I was born that way. Certainly I have always had health issues from a kid and reacted horribly to braces on my teeth in my teens. Metal sensitive too!
So as you are highly plastic allergic? I am hyper metal allergic. I don't put all my bets on plastics either, just because I don't have oral reactions to the stuff.
I'm sorry that you cannot replace your amalgams, and obviously this is the best position for you right now and it seems you are doing very well under the circumstances. I wish they had a benign material for us all or we could easily grow back teeth. But it's not so easy.
I don't have the exact text on Cutler's position on chelating with amalgams, though I know it's been mentioned before. The forums that take on his advice are certainly not for it at all. I know people have been made worse by trying it though. But if someone feels better....then yeah I would do it myself if I had no other choice and if it helped. I think he advises against chelating with certain metals that can leach out, but stainless steel I think is "ok" if one wants to chelate.
I dont' blame you for passing on what works for you. We all do it. But I have already mentioned that licensed doctors/specialists can and have (and do) make mistakes and can make people worse or use a protocol they consider is the "ideal" but it may hurt people. You hear bitterness from those harmed by these people whom one should be able to trust implicitely. I am sure there are fantastic reports too.
They SHOULD be the wise bet for sure and Cutler could be a bit of light weight upstart? who has happened to stumble on a method that .... works. Anybody can ask people on here or frequent dose forum/adult metal chelation forum who use his advice what it's doing for them, and they'll get their answers. You can also find out why they resorted to it and didn't they seek out licensed professionals first? Because I sure did and look at what happened to me and i hear the same from others. Andy mentions this in his book also and he certainly has had more than his share of dealing with backfires.
he's not a licensed doctor, but he's done extensive study and has an impressive track record with little risk...and the results do indicate he maybe on to a very stable and effective protocol if we are to believe those on here. He's a specialist in this field due to his own work, he understands it and did the right thing by self experiementation before using it on anybody....I don't quite believe he's a yahoo in an ivory tower, though I've heard him described as such.
Nobody has to take his advice, he's not a doctor and makes that very clear. Nobody has to listen to adverse reactions either if they don't want to hear about it. It's a controversial area and even licensed experts can argue with eachother about it and reach different conclusions and protocols.
I'm more concerned about extreme backfires, even if the person is more qualified than Cutler. I'm not saying they ALL do this, but I think we should consider the risks and not ignore them.
I feel perhaps there are those who have let down their colleagues and given them a bad name due to not being careful enough, taking unnecessarily risks etc. But certainly there are methods out there that are proving to be troublesome, even though experts may recommend them.
Loc: Lost on a mountain USA
I could replace my amalgams, given a dentist to use old style glass fillings like they did a short 8-10 years ago. But everywhere I go I get told we don't use that anymore and we don't keep it in stock. The one biologiocal dentist still uses it but the guy is such a pain to deal with. You have to book 3-4 months in advance for every thing, if you have an emergency (like I was in complete energency state all last spring) you are SOL, he won't give meporices for anything upfront, I was quoted a 475.00 inital appt fee ... a bit off the charts... and so anyway i ended up visiting other dentists for more opinions and by the end I was feeling better from chelating, having one really obnoxious old amalgam pulled and another half finsihed plastic filled suppose to be crowned tooth pulled too (so glad I did not attempt to finish that) etc.
Bex, I agree with you whole heartedly. It's a huge problem, dental materials and it'll make you pull your hair out.
My only point being, that it is possible to chelate with amalgams in. But following the Cutler protocol may not be the best way to do it.
Yes of course it is best to not have amalgams. But it's often a big problem getting them out. If someone says they are sick, really sick, not just an occasional headache, insisting that they remove all their amalgams before chelating is cruel in my opinion. It is not good advice. It is not the advice anyone except Andy Cutler and his protoges are giving, far as I know. you just don't leave someone for dead because they still have amalgams Bex.
telling ya, I met a number of older folks with amalgams in who were chelating at that clinic and they were pretty happy campers. I met them face to face and if I hadn't met them there I would have never suspected they had ever been sick.
Also, considering everything including the environment, it might be wise for everyone to find a more natural method of chelating because you really should not use synthetic chelators for too long. and in this world, amalgams or not, chelation and detoxing is a good thing to be doing on an ongoing basis, before you get real sick.
all my teeth started feeling better during and after the IV chelation btw. i did not get any sense whatsoever that the chelation was pulling mercury out of the amalgams. I did greatly sense it was pulling mercury out my gums and jawbone that had accumulated there over the years.
Yes I can understand you remaining where you are. It's hard to move out of that if you hit on something that works and probably not advisable given the dodgy alternatives...if nothing was working and you were in a chronic state, that would be different.
Well the Cutler protocol is designed for after amalgam removal, so it's hard to say what effect it might have with in place amalgams. Andy would not advise it of course and would take no responsibiity for those that decide to do so because he doesn't recommend doing this.
The doctor/specialist you had obviously has a method of doing these things that worked. Combination of stuff perhaps... it's good that you saw other people obviously benefitting from it at that clinic. I've heard DMPS IV can be great or horrendous. But a doctor in US (Paula Bickle) giving a conference on mercury toxicity to other doctors was so furious with what many doctors were doing with this to patients that it was actually banned for a while. She had gotten it back in again and almost made herself bankrupt trying to do it. She pleaded with her doctor audience to PLEASE follow the proper guidelines. She was well aware of the damage it could do....yet she praised it to the hilt if done correctly...so maybe your doctor did things carefully adn the right way.
I'm scared off by it, had it done by a doctor who obviously coudln't give a monkeys. Apparently did mercury chelation (qualfiied doctor) and in I went. Thinking I was going to come out of this better off .....this was a DMPS challenge test (bad move apparently) well I came out of it different alright. I was a total and utter basketcase following it. He gave me a load of it at onetime.
It had the effect of erupting so much mercury everywhere that you cannot imagine the results - extensive metal rashes covering me from head to toe (looked like a freak anytime I heated up). This went on for years, not to mention severe ongoing detox effects that I simply had no control over.
Being ill is one thing and not pleasant and I was toxic before I went in, but this became out of control after that....so yeah I really didn't know what to do. And phoning him in tears didn't go down too well either He was actually angry and didn't want to know about my situation from then on.
But glad to hear you and others have had really good results, perhaps that could have been me had the doctor done it right!
Yes my ideal would have been to stick to natural methods to chelate and that's what I had tried to do, but it just mobiised mercury too wildly without control of any symptoms. Too much. Same with DMSA with anything other than the frequent dose style (even 50 mg once a day would finish me for the next week). I had to find something that stopped hurting me as much.
You are lucky yu have found something that works so well. I wish that for everybody. I have just ordered some more antioxidants and DMSA. Waste of time as the DMSA might be, I still feel the effects from the last dental visit and don't feel "right" at all. Kind of drugged and itching in the face. So in case, I"ll give it a go and then try the ALA later.
Do you find any improvement by the way on antioxidants with amalgams in place?
Loc: Lost on a mountain USA
I have used Vitamin C almost (almost) daily for close to 30 years, longer actually because my mom always gave it to us as kids. So really I don't know. I've always used it. I've had amalgams since I was about 7 or 8 too so it's useless to try to answer that one.
I think with the heavy duty IV chelators you really have to stick with it a while. The rashes are actually normal a lot of the time as toxins break loose, they will go out through your skin. Maybe if you had continued on it for a couple months you wouldn't have had to suffer the rest. I was terribly whacked out my first 4-6 weeks too. I had a good support system though and the testimonies of all the other patients at the clinic who said hang on, hang on, it passes. apparently everyone goes through that. I mean, everyone. I think it's things like blood vessel and kidney damage from quick injections that are the problem with stuff like DMPS. My doctor only used an injection the first time for the initial dump, and then after that they mixed it with last little bit of EDTA IV fluid, so I actually wasn't doing injections, it was quite safe.
I avoided a chronic state by not self-treating something as massive as i had, Bex. self treating is ok when you feel pretty much ok I think. This had me completeky overwhelmed. I had no idea where normal was at from there so i couldn't possibly self-treat.
You know what is real helpful? If you have some powdered chlorella, take a teaspoon full now and then, dry, put that in your mouth and move it around your teeth and gums with your tongue, hold it in there for as long as you can... stand over the sink... spit it out a little bit when you get too much saliva... try to keep it in there a few minutes... spit it out little by little, do not swallow it, and then finally rinse. it'll mop up heavy metal from your fillings, gums a bit, whatever. Gets rid of that metallic taste for a good few days, all week in my case i only do it about that often.
Chlorella was originally used in mines to pull lead or something out of some other mineral, they would wash stuff down with it. You can do the same thing in your mouth.
SS: I have had a pulsing sensation in my mouth now for over a week. I can feel it especially where my 5 root canals were pulled and have been wondering how to get this feeling out of my mouth. I think my mouth is both poisoned from mercury and nickel braces. I was wondering about a way to "mop up the metal" in my mouth to get this stuff out faster.
Did you have any side effects from the chlorella (swishing), I hesitate to try this because after reaching 5 tabs I get side effects, but haven't tried gargling or swishing. Did you crush up tabs or buy in what form?
Loc: Lost on a mountain USA
I buy powdered chlorella. I suppose you could crush the tabs and chew the bits.
You shouldn't get any chlorella side effects from this at all, you don't want to swallow any of that after you've used it to mop up metals from your mouth. Spit it out and then rinse with water.
I get a teeny bit of a stuffy head from eating chlorella, but it does mop up mercury in your bloodstream too. i think maybe there is just a limit to how long you should use it, maybe just a week or two at a time then give it a week or two break if you eat it.
You can try dabbing some hydrogen peroxide on the gums with a q-tip too. (Rinse and spit after) I brush my teeth with salt water and baking soda a few times a week to keep that type of stuff away. I was getting some sensation in an area where a sloppy dentists pulled a tooth, tait took a few weeks of salt water and baking soda brushing/massaging to make it go away but it went away and has never come back. I would do it 2-3 times a day if I had real pain or concern there, even just a little bit. and dab on some h2o2. But use the chlorella too.
My teeth felt like heck before chelating even though they didn't show any problems on xray so chances are good it was mercury in my opinion. Your teeth might hurt a little the first few days you do all that but they should fell real good forever after if you stay with it at least a few times a week.
just a thought, but you might try putting the chlorella into some vodka or other strong grain alcohol, let it sit in there 5-10 minutes and then add some water to that mixture and swish/gargle with that too. the alcohol might help the chlorella get into your gums better. Don;t swallow that either. drink a shot of plain vodka later
I've read all the posts and I couldn't agree with you more. You mirror my experience with trying to get rid of this poison. The only difference is I tried Cutlers ALA protocol first. What a mistake that was! Firstly, in response to some things I've read on this site, ALA initially gives you quite a boost, nothing to do with Hg, but to do with it's use in the Kreb and citric acid energy cycles. Secondly, Yes Sosick, one of the few people that understands that Hg only exists in your blood for a short time before it's absorbed into you major organs. In fact when you look it up, Hg exist only for a max 48 hours in your blood, that’s why blood tests don't work. If you have amalgams, then you're constantly being poisoned so it will show up. Some salts of Hg actually only last for fractions of seconds in blood, such as ethyl and methyl Hg. Back to Cutler. I had allot of Hg (as I found out later), but bought the yellow book and did as specified. It scared the hell out of me. At first I got the feeling that something good was happening then I started to get burred vision. I ended up going to an ophthalmologist. He said my eyes were perfect 20/10 vision. So why the blurred vision I asked. Well certain drugs have an affect on the colernergic ? system in the brain he said and proceeded to ask if I'd taken any such as Welbutrin etc. It’s the brain that does the final focusing of the image you see. I hadn't, but knew what was happening, the ALA was dumping Hg into my brain. Later I spoke to a couple of doctors I came to know and they speculated that the ALA was probably crossing the BBB and loosing it's load of Hg to any Aluminum I had in my brain already (my Aluminum levels were always exceedingly high in blood tests before I got rid of the Hg).
I found a doctor in New York that treated me for 2.5 years, every other week with DMPS ( followed 2 days later by vit and Mineral drip). The last year with DMPS and Ca EDTA. For curiosity, I did a test where I went back to using Cutlers ALA protocol and then did the same 24 hour urine test as I usually did for the DMPS, the result was less than a 10th the usual amount being excreted. This in my opinion is the reason people spend so much time on these boards being sick using this protocol. It took me 2.5 years to get most of this poison out, I can’t imagine doing it for 20+ years.
As soon as I found out about amalgams and that they were poisoning me I went straight down to Mexico (I have a house there) and got a dentist friend of mine to (as I put it to him) “get this toxic waste out of my mouth!”. The only thing I did was take a couple of shots of tequila first before he did it because alcohol stops the Hg from being absorbed from the blood to your major organs (probably just slows it down). But the point is enough was enough after 42 years. I found what Cutler said in his book about getting tired etc 6 months after the amalgams coming out, but, I hadn’t started with the DMPS chelation at that point.
You are so right about the affects of DMPS the first few weeks, I was shattered, but determined. I had a good doctor that new his stuff. I felt so good right after, but the next day, wow, talk about tired. It was only ameliorated by taking extra mineral supplements when I felt really bad. As soon as you get past the initial few weeks a MIRACLE occurred. Remember, I’d been suffering from this all my life, symptoms disappeared I didn’t even know I had! I’m a completely different person, I mean, my girlfriend would tell me that my personality had changed (for the good) every few months. I don’t even recognize myself. She said to me later that she literally fell in love with me all over again. What a testament for DMPS I say. I caution people though! DMPS is the best chelating agent because it’s the most effective at removing Hg, and there is it’s weakness, if in the hands of a doctor who doesn’t know how to use it can be VERY dangerous, just as Hg is dangerous. If you think about it, dumping too much Hg into you blood system at once is like getting poisoned all over again with Hg. If you go to the DMPSbackfire site it’s filled with people who essentially got all the symptoms of Hg poisoning because their foolish doctors didn’t know the right protocol. I’ve even spoken to some of them and that’s what they say, that they were basically experimented on. These people need to finish what they started and get a good doctor who’ll chelate them.
Having said all this, as Sosick says, it’s expensive. For one reason and another I ran out of money after 2 years, the doc picking up the tab for the remainder (Nice Doc, right?) But, the circumstances were unusual, I lived next the the twin towers and on 9/11, on the way to work, the second plan flew over my head into the south tower. I made a big mistake, I stayed there for a further 2 years, loosing my job and getting sicker and sicker. I did a DMPS 24 hour urine test 8 months after, not only had my Hg gone up where it had gone down to almost nothing for 2.5 years, but I ended up with Uranium (low but present) where I hadn’t had any before. Later I found out that they put it into planes to stabilize them in flight.
To cut a very long story short:-
I believe the following to be true based on my experience.
ALA will keep you sick for years if you’re an adult because you’re probably absorbing more Hg than you’re getting rid of. I specify adult, because I have no experience with children and would never give advice, children are different.
I’m sorry, but homeopathy doesn’t work in this case, I tried it for years, Nothing…..
Just bite the bullet and get this toxic waste out, if it’s too much try less and less DMPS till you can tolerate it.
MAKE SURE you get IV nutrients (20g Vit C etc) 1 or two days after DMPS, this is essential. I would content that a few weeks of this before you start with DMPS is essential and is the only criticism I have of my doctor.
You will feel better from IV Vit C alone because C ameliorate the symptoms of Hg poisoning.
DMPS does not cross the BBB barier and is in lower concentrations in the brain. Only after you have depleted the Hg in the body can you consider taking something like ALA or DMSA that does cross the BBB. Curious thing happened, when you start to lower you body’s Hg levels significantly, it seems the body starts to move the hg out of the brain to the body, by itself. Remember you heard it here first.
Yes I have had conversations with Andy, I don’t know what his story is but, personally I don’t think he should be playing doctor. Doctors (the right ones) should be playing doctor.
DMSA doesn’t work for me, my brother and my Mother. My brother couldn’t take DMPS, finally got him some Penacilamine (old chelator). This was to get a result from a 24 hour urine test result to show his doctor.
Hair analysis isn’t going to show anything for allot of people with Hg poisoning without something to dislodge the Hg bound up with proteins in the major organs. I think this has already been shown to be true.
Overall, this is one difficult element to test for and to remove from the body. It takes along time and allot of money.
Testing and monitoring should be an integral part of the treatment. I’ve noticed allot of people here seem to imagine Hg is going in or out of there bodies but, don’t actual know if the treatments they’re doing is having any affect at all.
Remember, easy to anger, is one of the main symptoms Hg poisoning. I used to suffer from this, especially on message boards…..
These are my opinions I’m sharing with you, do with them as you like.
Good on you Sosick, we need more people like you around who have got well. (My opinion also).
HI 40 yr poisoned. I am really sorry to hear of this. This is terrible! I am surprised I have not heard this with the others on here using his protocol and I must ask why?
Do you mind if I ask you please, at what stage following amalgam removal did you start using ALA? Andy specifically and has repeated many times, you should NOT use ALA until 3 months or more has passed after amalgam removal (or any other recent mercury exposure).
He has good reasons for pointing this out. The body has to have a chance to eliminate/reduce the more accessible mercury still available. DMSA can grab onto that, so it is very helpful to use early on. Some people continue with DMSA for much longer than specified because they find it is still detoxing them. DMSA may also have "some" ability to clear organs, but not to the extent of ALA.
There are some people who have used his protocol, but decided to make changes to it and hurt themselves and then gotten onto forums and complained that his protocol is bad. This has upset Andy tremendously after finding out they did not stick to the specific guidelines. If a person has not followed his guidelines and timing, then they cannot blame him or his protocol. If they have followed the guidelines and still been injured? They ought to tell him via phone, email etc. And of course warn others if they can.
He does the timing of all this for a reason. Those who do it to the letter (apart from altering dose to suit themselves), I have YET to hear of such an adverse response.
So I'd be interested to find out exactly when you start using ALA. If you used it before the three months? Then what Andy warned about, probably took place inside of you. The extra-cellular mercury has got to be reduced first (body mercury), before a brain chelating agent can be taken onboard.
I personally feel that 3 months is not enough, because many people are still getting detox symptoms with DMSA alone.
In fact, his protocol (even with just DMSA) was actually what was curing me of mercury and my health improved tremendously. You will find on this very forum that people have and are responding pretty well to his than they have to other ones they've tried.
I coudl not tolerate anything else BUT his. I tried many other protocols, even ones by specialist doctors and couldn't handle them at all. I kept going back to his and it worked.
But evenso, just because it worked for me, does not mean it'll work for everybody. However, his trackrecord is very impressive and you'll see quite a few who are very happy with his protocol so far. No reactions like yours yet.
Also, sosick has not removed her amalgams as yet and is chelating regardless. This may work for her, but it does not work for everybody and some have been very sick by doing so. Also changes take place after amalgam removal and people can feel much worse for quite sometime as the body offloads the storage.
I actually felt better with amalgams in some ways than without them. So it is easy to assume a person is healthier because they have less "symptoms" than those who are suffering from post amalgam removal detox syndrome, who suffer long term. It takes a LOT of time to eliminate years of storage and the dumping stage is traumatic for many.
I could boast of being "better" with amalgams and following a good diet to how I became after amalgam removal. All because I had less detox to tolerate. So I could "maintain" a level of apparent health, even though my tissues were quite puffy from the ongoing onslaught of storing the daily intake of mercury.
Storage mode is easier to put up for some people than dumping mode (from amalgam removal) if they make changes to their lifestyle to keep a certain level of health going. But it is often not the answer. One has to go through usually a lot of detox pain once amalgams are out and Andy's protocol can shorten that and make it alot easier as it did for me.
With amalgams, I coudl tolerate all kinds of things, even strong Garlic supplements and do well on them. After amalgam removal? I got incredibly sick from almost everything because my body was exposed to much more of the mercury during dumping. I also became more sensitive to mercury too after removal. This apparently can occur as the body's attempt to alert you against ever exposing yourself to this stuff again.
So it responds in an exaggerated manner to mercury. Hal Huggins mentions this in his detox booklet too. amalgam removal is far from the end to this problem, it's just the beginning of an often difficult/erratic journey towards detoxing the body of this poison properly.
well 40 yr I have to agree with you at this point in my detox , I have only used 9 rounds of ALA and dmsa and it has really messed me up , I was doing better without it, im sure that there are many out there that have been helped with them , but I will not use it any more unless I can find more info that it does not mobilize more back in the body , so far I do not trust the Cutler protocol from my own experience , and I am in search of a alternative treatment to get the rest of the mercury out , I am glad to see someone that has actually been cured from mercury poisoning , and yes you are correct , none of us want to spend 20 years trying to cure this illness , if there is a better way we all want to hear about it, thanks for your story , it gives us hope
It was 6-7 years ago now, 50mg I think, but it was what was specified in Cutlers book, I followed his protocol. Andy said that for some people, even 50mg was too much. He couldn't really fault what I was doing as I had followed the prot to the letter.
I have had horrific responses to ALA when I used it too soon after a recent mercury exposure. E.g. once when I had released metals from antifungal use (which equals recent exposure) and another time when I redistributed mercury from using Garlic supplementation and then used ALA too soon after that, which made matters ten times worse.
both times ALA should not have been used, but rather DMSA or letting my body deal with it naturally for a few months before I tried ALA.
So if you had not used ALA until 3 months or longer after amalgam removal or other mercury exposure and this still happened? Then I would want answers from Andy, because that is very concerning. It is stated in his book that the body load of mercury MUST be reduced before adding a brain chelating agent like ALA. The fast pools must first be reduced before using ALA to get the slow pools of mercury out.
Jinx on here has had horrible reactions after using cilantro and it seems recently, after Garlic (or could be the cleanse he did). Bad things with mercury easily occur and backfires are frightening. Had them with many things. Again I will say that Cutler's protocol was the safest approach for my healing from that condition because I was so toxic and sensitive.
I am sorry that it did not work out in your case. Everybody is different. Sosick does brilliantly on what she does and I gave it a go and it was not only ineffective, but stirred things up pointlessly without achieving anything.
Some people's systems are far more efficient at eliminating what gets stirred up than other people. I require frequent dosing in order to keep things even mildly tolerable.
I never knew what normal was until I got ride of the Hg, I was poisoned at a really young age. My girlfriend would insist on taking me to museums and art galleries etc and I would think, for what? Funny thing happened, I started to realize why people look at paintings and why flowers are beautiful. Sounds a bit corny I know but other odd things like, I walk 3 times faster now. I'm not trying to walk faster it's just that with the same amount of effort things are just more efficient, like oiling a rusty bike. Another Hg symptom, shyness, boy was I shy before, and public speaking even in front of a couple of people, just would never have happened. Stuttering too, and trying to put the great ideas I had down on paper, no way, it was like I would run into a brick wall. Now, no one would call me shy, I think people would better describe me as an extrovert. No stuttering, and boy am I funny, I crack people up all the time. It’s like I’m a mirror image of the way I was. As I said, I don’t recognize myself.
The downside, when I started to go to this doc in New York, he said originally that he could get rid of the Hg and that I would get a relief of symptoms, however, he also said that because of the length of time I’d been poisoned, that there would be permanent damage he couldn’t fix. The other downer, especially after 9/11, I know the job is not complete. I need to finish the chelation of Hg, to get rid of the very deep reservoirs of Hg. Unfortunately, at the time, I ran out of money and since then the doc I was seeing has retired. I now live in San Francisco anyway and I’ve started the task of looking for a doc in the area that will complete the job. Can’t wait till I find out what I’m really like after completion.
40 yrs, that doesn't sound corny at all. I know exactly what you're saying. When there is a lifting of what the hg has done, you feel like a window has opened up in your mind and suddenly the world looks like a different place and you hear yourself talk and you marvel at yourself (not in a vain way). And marvel at things you never noticed before or thought of as "ho hum".
I have only had "glimses" unfortunately and it really p*sses me off to think what I may have been had it not been for this. It also makes me also far more aware of other people and those that seem withdrawn, quiet and depressed and the fact it may not be them at all....
When I got much further detoxed of this nasty poison, I actually could not stop looking around me at what seemed like a new world. Everything was like Xmas. Colours were more vivid, I felt reasonably intelligent for once (where normally I feel like a dullard), I felt happy and was appreciating the tiniest things (just like being a child again). Excited, looking forward to things, planning things, going out more.
But I got hit with a severe infection (viral and other) and it's like I've gone back to how I was when poisoned, but actually in a way worse. Like now I don't get excited over anything. I actually feel like some shadow of myself and I just smile and say the right things because I think I ought to. I'm almost trying to make up for what's not there (or what I no longer feel). Like a robot. A pseudo "me".
along with irrational anxiety and mental stupidity (I have trouble taking in information and actually retaining it).
So yeah, far from corny, you're post here is a reflection of myself. It's amazing when you see yourself or patches of yourself for what you really are eh? And long for that to be permanent. If you are like this now? Imagine what you'd be if you were more completely chelated?
But yes, lifting of toxicitiy releases many talents you didn't know you had (or forgot you had them). What potential we all have!
Really hope you can get the rest of this stuff out of you. But so good to hear you've already had these kinds of improvements. That is exciting. Oh and the walking faster bit? I walk around like someone dragging a dead weight!
Nope, not corny in the slightest….I been there, I am there and I want more of it!
Thanks for posting 40yrs, it’s real important to have success stories, no matter how they happen. Your experience with ALA helps me understand more what, why and how ALA works.
At the moment I can only handle 6mg of dmsa every 3 hours, so its obvious to me that ALA will be too strong for me at this point in my (early) chelation protocol. My body burden is obviously still way too high for ALA.
One of the most regular things we see on other forums (Yahoo FDC) is the repeated requests to start on much much lower doses of these chelators. The Cutler protocol of 50mg is way too high, but this has only been discovered since so many people have been trying so hard to cure themselves. Everyone is different and is screwed up in there own special way……me included. 12.5mg is now the recommneded starting dose.
Congratulations on getting so much better yourself and for sharing what you learned.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third it is accepted as being self-evident."
Hi 40 yr I was just wondering how much you spent so far on the DMPS? I was seeing an ND and they wanted me to do the DMPS and was going to cost me $75.00 a pop and they wanted to do this 40 times. That would have ended up costing me $3000.00. Is that about what it costed you? I am very curious after your post and how well you have done.
A word fitly spoken is like apples of gold in pictures of silver.
Well, seeing where you're from I guess there's not much option but to use ALA or DMSA. I was over in the UK trying to get treatment for my brother who has the same symtomology as I had but worse. It's impossible to get them to even accept the possibility someone might have Hg poisoning over there. I even sent my test results from DMPS treatments. The head of toxicology I spoke to thought that even though the results showed this massive excretion of Hg over two years and miraculous relief of symptoms, thought that the doctors who treated me in New York were "Immoral". I told him it was immoral that so many people couldn’t even get a proper test for Hg and what was he afraid off. The response was, this is a very rare condition . He then did what all doctors do in the UK when confronted with someone who might know something, they stop talking.
One problem I have with DMSA and ALA is, how do you know what is coming out, if anything? 12.5mg of ALA and you get bad symptoms would make we wonder whether it’s really because the Hg. My thought is that you should just bite the bullet and get this toxic waste out ASAP. It’s uncomfortable the first could of weeks, but I don’t really think there’s an alternative. Getting the Hg out is always going to be akin to getting poisoned, so you might as well (under the right protocol and Doctor etc) get it over with. As I said in a prior post, I never found DMSE did anything and ALA seemed to put more Hg into my brain than anywhere else. And the actual test I did to see what was coming out using ALA showed a trivial amount over 24 hours. This might be fine for children, but for adults, my experience is GET IT OUT ASAP.
The blurry vision has gone. As soon as you start to remove the Hg from the body there is a redistribution away from the brain. The only thing not to go away from the damage ALA gave me is a very small dot in my right eye. I see it when I look at PC monitors just below right of center. I have no Idea why it appeared or how ALA caused it. But, it's still there. It's just an annoyance, nothing major.
40yrs, I had a dot in my eye also when mercury poisoned. I had not used ALA. I think it was just so much being stirred up by whatever I was using and lots of crying and salivating (from detoxing). that things got shifted in all directions.
This dot appeared and there it was, everywhere I looked (being on my eye). It was there for ages too. Used to annoy me and was far worse in a light plain room. It stood out sometimes so much I was distracted by it.
It finally went away! Not sure how long I had to wait, but I guess through more detoxing and healing later on, finally cleared away the debri or healed that area up.
Well, this was New York. It cost $150 for the IV DMPS (later with Ca EDTA) and $150 for the IV of Vits and Minerals. then there was testing every 4-5 treatments $38 to see what was coming out. Multiply this by 67 (2.5 years). Why would they want you to do this 40 times?? You might chelate and only need 5. Then again you might need 67 like me, there's no way to know what the body load of Hg is, only the rate at which is comes out in a 24 hour urine test and the two are not related. I would n't just do 40 chelations without a full metal (24 hour) test the first time and then testing for just Hg every 4-5 chelations (assuming its Hg that is the problem).
Do not let this Dr give you DMPS without the IV minerals and vits a day or so later because you will get sick. One of the good and bad things about DMPS is that it is VERY effective at pulling metals out of the body, including the good ones. If he doesn't want to do it, walk away and find someone who will.
Loc: Lost on a mountain USA
Yep, exactly my experience. Get rid of it ASAP. No need to suffer for years.
The protocol your doc used sounds very similar to mine, except my doc started the EDTA first (high lead here with mercury, some cadmium, some uranium) and then added DMPS to the routine. I went in twice a week at first and then once a week for about 5 months, got DMPS only once a week ever, and then, being tired of the drive, the needles, the synthetic chelators all around, I discovered that cilantro gave me the exact same relief as DMPS. I ate a good amount of cilantro twice a week for many months, I am slowing down and really should get back to it, just busy really. You need to eat a good amount of Garlic with the cilantro, I also mix some olive oil and lemon juice in. In fact I like the cilantro better, especially fresh from my garden.
Outside NYC, I paid $120 per EDTA IV and I think $60 or $75 for the DMPS. I paid $120 for the vitamin IV pack after every 4 IV treatments. My blood tests cost $60 or so each, evry 4th IV just prior to the vitamin IV. My intitial blood tests were expensive, about $1400-1500.00.
I have absolutely no idea really how people put up with the Cutler routine. I don't see much space in there for renourishing with vitamins which bothers me quite a bit about that routine. DMSA works for me, but I would never ever take any synthetic drug round the clock for days and days so that part really turns me off. I use 50-75 mgs of DMSa only once a week, maybe once every couple weeks depending on how I feel. Mainly these days, if my hands are tingly in teh morn i will take some DMSA at night and it usually clears right up. But then again, i haven't been eating my cilantro as often now so that would explain the tingly hands. It is easier to pop a pill but it's not as effective or safe in my opinion.
I read somewhere that longterm DMSA use can cause bone marrow problems and that would make sense since it is probably depleting your body of iron if you use it daily.
40 or 60 DMPS IV's seems like an awful lot. i only needed several to feel whole lots better and I was real sick.
Quote: I have absolutely no idea really how people put up with the Cutler routine. I don't see much space in there for renourishing with vitamins which bothers me quite a bit about that routine. DMSA works for me, but I would never ever take any synthetic drug round the clock for days and days so that part really turns me off. I use 50-75 mgs of DMSa only once a week, maybe once every couple weeks depending on how I feel. Mainly these days, if my hands are tingly in teh morn i will take some DMSA at night and it usually clears right up. But then again, i haven't been eating my cilantro as often now so that would explain the tingly hands. It is easier to pop a pill but it's not as effective or safe in my opinion.
Obviously it is inconvenient and if there had have been any other method that I tolerated somewhat? I'd have taken it. I also tried many times to go off is protocol and try something else with dire consequences, which drove me back to his again everytime. Yes I hated setting the alarm for every four hours and waking during the night, but again, had there been other way? I'd have taken it in a shot. Who wants to take a pill every 4 hours? But again, pain's a great motivator.
Yeah the bone marrow side of things is most definitely concerning. However, there are some people who are taking over 500 mg of DMSA (two 250 mg pills) on alternative days in one isolated dose and this is a typical protocol of many doctors. My doctor here used to use it, she's a specialist in mercury detox. Don't you think that taking a much smaller dose (e.g. 25 mg of DMSA) every 4 hours is actually easier for the body than a load at onetime? Even one full day of that still doesn't come up to 500 mg.
Also, I tried the isolated DMSA dosing. I tried 50 mg and it threw me into a horrible state which kept me up all night long and turned me into a raving mess. I took a long time to recover from that alone. That was just not going to work for me and I had to dose every 4 hours again to keep it even.
Plenty of people have been mucked up by trying to chelate mercury with natural stuff. It's the mercury that's the problem and if it gets redistributed enough? You get be sick for a long time afterwards no matter what you're taking. I think it also comes down to someone's basic elimination too.
I'm not discounting yours or 40yrs experiences. It works for you, stick with it. It sounds a much easier route too. I don't know how I'd have been with it. I had one DMPS challenge test which made me severely ill as I've said, so didn't have a good experience with it at all.
You guys obviously got good doctors who did the DMPS just right. Wished I had the same experience. We got a few here who do it. One excellent doctor does them here, but I never got him, I got some dud obviously. Some of them really make people ill with this stuff and tragically so in some cases. I think they ruin it for the other doctors who do it properly!
I tried chlorella too, to prepare for DMPS and wound up vomiting non stop all day long lol. My doctor almost gave up on me because of my reactions. So I just opted for Cutler. Didn't have anybody else really, unless I was prepared to travel long distance.
Loc: Lost on a mountain USA
It might just be you Bex, and some others with problems other than heavy metal toxicity complicating things.
Cilantro works great for me, others have had good experiences with it too, and adding DMSA to my cilantro routine is very effective for me.
Using DMSA alone doesn't work that well for me, it'll clear my blood of some stuff I think but I always end up getting a headache or on the verge of one when I use it alone. The cilantro always makes my head feel good. The store bought cilnatro doesn't compare to my fresh homegrown stuff though, I have to use twice as much at least and then of course I wonder about pesticides and other stuff that might be in it.
and then of course, not overlooking the liver flushes, parasite and colon cleansing which have also helped a whole bunch.
I really think you have to do the whole spiel.. colon cleansing, chelating, colon cleansing, chelating, chelating, parasite cleansing, liver flushes, colon cleansing, chelating chelating chelating, colon cleansing colon cleansing, chelating chelating chelating colon cleansing colon cleansing chelating chelating ... liver flushes, colon cleansing, chelating chelating
Hi sosick, maybe. But I know there are enough others out there too who feel Cutler's helped them who found other protocols made them worse or didn't help them. 2 other forums elsewhere use his protocol and people seem pretty happy. I don't know how fast it works, I did many things before it. So I can't say it was the only thing that moved mercury out of me. Seemed for me at that time a combination of factors, but his was more tolerated as far as side effects were concerned.
I reckon with me the DMPS IV I had was done incorrectly and possibly released a load of stored mercury everywhere inside of me. Perhaps that is why I found so many things intolerable after that. I can't say. Odd to know that when I had amalgams, I could handle Garlic supplements and did well on them too. But later, after amalgam removal and the doctor who did the DMPS, things were no longer tolerated.
So Andy's was a very strict way of doing things. Seemed to work for me and the same for others who may have a similar problem than I do. Could also be a weakness within myself too. Because something has always been amiss with the way my body handles toxins. It's abnormal. To cry and salivate uncontrollably as the only real means of releasing toxins properly is far from normal. So I had to be very very careful what i used to excrete mercury, or this tendency I already had would become pronounced to the extreme.
Yeah, the colon/bowel cleanse I'm doing soon. I don't know about chelation right now though. I'll see how finances go. Cannot afford DMSA (costs 1.20 a capsule, pretty steep eh?). May try ALA at some point. I also find that if there IS anymore mercury, it's likely in the brain/organs, rather than where DMSA can grab it.
DMSA is great when it can get hold of the mercury or when the mercury is made available for it to grab onto, but doesn't do much for me otherwise.
I didn't find cilantro helped me this time either. I really doubt that mercury is the real issue anymore. I still feel it's viral and infection related. So I have to work on that more I believe.
Thanks for your comments. Perhaps if I had the doctor you had, I'd have done fine. But unfortunately we got some doctors out there who play cowboy with the DMPS IV and don't do it properly and screw people up.
Got a great doctor in who is an expert in mercury who uses DMPS, but he told me it's got to be done right or it can mess people up. He does a combintation of things for mercury patients. He does not use DMSA, he doesn't believe it's wise....he uses homeopathy and his homeopathy is VERY VERY effective for mercury. I was stunned. I should have stuck with him, but he was too far away. But the onetime I did see him and get homeopathy, so much mercury erupted out of me, I was immediately covered with rashes. I had to lower the dose! So he knows his stuff.
I've had homeopathy before by some other altnerative health guy and it just wasted my time.
It really does depend on who you go to and how well they know their stuff.
Well we're talking about 40+ years ago and it poisoned the whole family (though no one knew it at the time). The best I can come up with is that it was accidentally bought home by my father. He was an engineer working on aircraft hydraulics. The oil used in all planes is called Skydrol and is not exactly like any oil that you would put in your car engine. It has to function in extremes of temperature and pressure without breaking down. Dad said the oil sometimes went everywhere when something blew apart. He used to come home and I remember an oily metallic odor from his clothes. Well, the thing that makes me think it was this oil that contained Hg is that Dad developed a rash on his scalp and the back of his neck, very bad. He had to take the company he worked for to an industrial tribuneral to get compensation. They said it was contact dermatitis. It's a trade secret what is in the oil, but Dad was able to get some and send it off to a lab. Funny thing is that the lab wouldn't tell Dad what was in it, only presented the results to the court, sort of secret everyone knows but you, and these people were supposedly working on his side. The lab was basically afraid to get sued by the company that makes it. A few years ago I was trying to look up Skydrol on the internet and I came across a site, I think from the US Navy describing how to handle Skydrol on aircraft carriers. Basically they said that you had to wear a space suite while adding it to fighter aircraft. Dad said that he’d had to take allot of time off work, but that he’d trusted that he would have at least the backing of the Union. They were evidentially complicit in Dad not getting anywhere with the case. He said he should have taken pictures of conditions before he started the case too. When he got back to work they’d cleaned everything up and even painted the floors. The result was one of those small nothing payments from the company and a none admittance of wrong doing. I’m pretty sure that was it, but I only found out when I was in my 40’s what was going on with my and my families health. Well, the company went out of business and they knocked the factory down, then, they built houses on the site. Bet there’s massive contamination of Hg in the soil.
EDTA has virtually no affect on chelating Hg. However, if taken in combination with DMPS has the affect of helping the Hg out of the blood system and stopping it from being reabsorbed. So, DMPS grabs the Hg and wrenches it away from being bound to proteins in you major organs and delivers it into the blood system. Normally some would be filtered out through the kidneys and bile duct and some would be re-adsorbed, but with the EDTA present it binds to the Hg and stops allot of this re-absorption resulting in higher levels of excretion. This is how it was explained to me by my Doc. And it did seem to enhance the results. From my test results it seemed I was always absorbing the arsenic present in NY water. Either that or my girlfriend was trying to do away with me, which, thinking about it, is not so far fetched considering what a horrible person I used to be. I’ve since had a complete personality change and she’s fallen in love with me all over again at least twice since starting this whole Hg thing.
Yes I did. Funny thing, before I found out the root cause of my symptoms was Hg, I'd been to my dentist (in Mexico, I have a house there) and he'd suggested changing the old amalgams for white fillings on the lower jaw because it looked better. About 3 months after removal, I swore to my girlfriend that I felt better. She said I should have the rest done, but I never did.
I found out about Hg a couple of years later. I remember the look on my dentists face when I went in and told him "GET THIS TOXIC WASTE OUT OF MY MOUTH!". I only had a week in Mexico because I was working in New York at the time. Had them all out within 1 week. I remember reading that if you had a drink before amalgam removal it helped stop Hg re-absorbsion, so I used to have 2 Tequila’s before leaving for the dentist.
True to Cutlers book, about 6 months after removal, I felt much worse. I don’t recall an explanation of why this is, but seems to have happened to a couple of people I know, whether they were careful about the way they got their amalgams out or as I, getting them out asap.
Hi 40 yrs, the explanation for the 6 month post amalgam removal worsening is described by Cutler in his book. He calls it the "second phase of suffering". Many people experience this, some earlier, some later (I experienced it about a year and a half later, which is very late).
It seems to be the body's way of attempting to dump out the years of stored mercury. Once all amalgams are removed, the body seems to be triggered into detox mode, rather than storage mode. The tap of poison has basically been removed (shut off) and the body becomes aware there is no more daily intake of mercury and when it's ready, it asserts itself and starts to tackle the storage.
This is good, but it's painful and sometimes it can actually feel worse than how it felt with amalgams, because detox/healing symptoms usually are and it's much more dramatic. Poisoning from amalgams is insidious, chronic/slow. But healing crisis/detox symptoms are usually quite extreme in some people. I went through sheer hell on earth with it and tried to speed it up by using all manner of products that chelated/mobilised mercury. I put up with feeling even worse temporarily in the hopes that it would get the stuff out of me and speed up the slow painful process more! But I usually screwed myself up in the meantime trying to do it, until I got on DMSA every 4 hours, which stabilised things far more and got the mercury out in a way I could handle.
Does Andy also describe in his yellow book how it feels to have a collection of pathogens in your body and how they affect you? I just collected some of the more common pathogens that people have reported: cytomegalo, polio, epstein-barr, coxsackie, mycoplasma, chlamydia pneumoniae, helicobacter pylori, borrelia, babesia, bartonella, ehrlichiosis.
In what way is the mercury in your body more harmful than these, and how do you know your symptoms are caused by mercury and not by some of these?
Yes, he does go into the pathogen side of it to a point, but that's not his main focus. He has studied mercury toxicity more than pathogens and understands that pathogens are often the result of a mercury toxic system. He recommends treating them at the sametime as mercury but believes chelation is the cure in the end (if mercury is the problem). He said often the way to find out if you have a problem is taking an antifungal and seeing if you get a die off effect. Then stopping and trying again later and if the same thing occurs, because symptoms alone are pretty big indicators.
He does not go into the diet side of it as such, and I think that's a mistake, because diet is a big part of treating yeast overgrowth and sometimes a big part of helping a person feel a bit better too (sometimes a lot better). As they treat the mercury.
You would be wise to get his book (if you can) so you can read and find out exactly what mercury does inside each system of the body, what symptoms are created by it and what to take to help a person 'feel" better, whilst they chelate the mercury out to attain permanent improves, rather than just temporary from dosing up on supplements etc. He goes into it indepth and knows his stuff. He has studied it for years and cured himself of it and has helped and cured many others also around the world. He understands the nature of mercury and refers to it as causing "tremendous suffering". Not just directly, but indirectly by the very things it interfers with and leaving the body wide open for other infections also, messing up the endocrine system, depression, suicidal thoughts etc. mercury can mess up any system inside the body, as well as allowing pathogens to overgrow which also do their own damage.
I'm not sure how someone would know if their symptoms were all mercury or pathogen or both. They would need to test that out by taking stuff and checking symptoms. I don't believe all testing methods are overly reliable. I think it's always a good idea to do trial by diet and antifungals (if necessary, though this can cause big issues in some people, antifungals can be far too aggressive, so I'd do trial by strict diet first) Though, that only took me so far, it did not really address the underlying issue. Chelation did and I knew my problems were very much metal and pathogen related at the sametime, so I needed to treat both.
Some find chelation does not work for them, yet diet and antifungals do, so they probably have a yeast issue caused by something else rather than mercury. Others find that diet and chelation help but don't do enough and therefore chelation maybe the answer.
Andy mentions this in the book also and there is a way of finding out both. You will find people on here may get tremendous detox reactions from metal chelating agents, yet others will find no such reaction at all, yet are still very sick and may find over time that they may need to search for some other diagnosis.
If you look up symptoms of both mercury and candida on many different websites, you will find the symptoms that both are capable of causing, though I don't know if anybody truly knows which one is exactly responsible for what all the time. I think only a specialist who has worked in this area of years and done much testing and experimenting might know that a bit more. Though I think the sufferer does too after many years, because you get to know your own body and symptoms very very well after a long time.
When I had amalgams, I used to treat my yeast with diet and antifungals and improved, but the underlying persistant symptoms of mercury poisoning were evident. I felt poisoned even before I knew about mercury. And my last visit to a dental office also left me very very ill, just by breathing in the vapors. Happens everytime.
Symptoms from my last vapor inhalation? - Chest/breathing restriction, severe depression, exhaustion, heart palpitations, fearfulness, wheezing in the lungs, metal taste again, swollen tongue, nightmares, itching in the face and sometimes rashes, aching painful stiff joints all over my body, some crying spells etc.
This happens eachtime I enter the office, but takes a wee while to kick in and things get very bad and stay bad for months afterwards. And no it's not pathogens, I suffer with those everyday and battle them everyday. In fact, my pathogen overgrowth is actually far worse now with my viral infection and other infections than it ever was when I just had mercury! But there is no doubting the symptoms when I've breathed in mercury vapor.
Bex. It is not this simple. You said that iodine caused some mercury symptoms for you. But iodine is anti-bacterial and Dietrich Klinghardt who is some kind of a lyme specialist recommends it against lyme. iodine will naturally work against other bacterias as well. There is also a problem with anti-fungals. Fluconazole has been found to be efficient against lyme as well, even though it is an anti-fungal. DMSA has lots of other properties as well, not only being a mercury chelator. Based on this you can't even know what the drugs/supplements you take have an effect on. Products termed as "metal chelators" may infact have some quite other interesting effects on the pathogens in your body. But only future research will tell us more about that.
Where did I say it was that simple? Where have I not mentioned the pathogen relationship to all this pgm?
My symptoms to iodine could be a number of things - overstimulation of the thyroid (overdosing or too soon high dosage), because I am not used to it. My adrenals probably could not handle this too well either and yes iodine can indeed cause some stirring up of metals and other toxins. anytime you replace the minerals/elements that mercury interferes with, they compete with mercury for binding sites and therefore displace some of it too. Selenium can do the same. As can any mineral that mercury interefers with. THough Andy does not believe it is a chelating agent, he mentioned that it doesn't detox it to "any clinical degree". He says this about selenium also. However, a certain amount of metals that are accessible can get stirred up. I've gone through it. They were not all pathogen related, I've been through much die off from pathogens in my time.
iodine I hear also aids against infection, so perhaps pathogen die off too is involved.....none of this is that simple pgm, I don't think anybody said it was.....You can certainly blame everything on pathogen die off as you always do, but die off from antifungals never got rid of my mercury toxicity or mercury symptoms. Only chelation did that. If chelation was all about pathogens, I cannot imagine I'd have gotten too much further. They are not called metal chelating agents for nothing. To attempt to discount improvement from metal chelation as having anything to do with "metal", but rather pathgoens makes little sense to me.
I'm sure both are involved. Remove metal, you improve the body's ability to reduce pathogens. Reduce yeast/pathogens, you improve the body's ability to cope with mercury or other toxicity.....If I wanted to reduce yeast/pathogens and this is all I thought I had, I would never have bothered with chelation and probably would never have needed to.
Based on my experience and symptoms in taking many products for many years, I think I do have "some" idea of what was doing what and what improved what....though I'm not a qualified doctor and would not be able to do indepth studies and tests on myself to find out. Are you a doctor? Or some qualified alternative health therapist? I sure aren't. I can only read and go by what these people say and based on what I experience in my own symptoms, I am usually able to tell if they are accurate (in my case anyway).
In fact, many doctors got it wrong and screwed me up or did nothing for me. Funny how Cutler who isn't even as qualified got me on the right track....
The antifungals I took by the way were nystatain and that caused alot of yeast die off for me at that time. I've also used Garlic, grapefruit seed extract, nilstat and another one from the doctor also at different times. Yes they are caused yeast die off, but once again, they did not get rid of the underlying problem - mercury. amalgam removal and chelation were the only ways I was able to get the metals out of my system and THEN my body was better able to start keeping pathogens down.
Well perhaps I should have been clearer. What I meant with things not being simple is that there are surprising side-effects of some drugs/supplements that actually result in the good effects. Because there are people who don't have heavy metal toxicity, but still benefit from taking DMSA, because of its undocumented effects. This issue of undocumented effects of DMSA is being debated in the autism community I think, because mercury chelation alone cannot explain all the positive effects of DMSA (some do not excrete mercury when using DMSA, but still see improvement). Since everyone with chronic illnesses have pathogens (I think this is a reasonable assumption), it is reasonable to think the side-effects have something to do with them, and that it is the pathogens that cause most, if not all of the harm. They are also something one can detect, if bothered about. For some reason mainstream doctors are not interested in these issues (detecting chronic pathogen infections).
The best explanation for what mercury causes is immunomodulation, making the body neglect the intracellullar pathogens (expect chronic viral infections, and intracellular bacterias) This negative effect of mercury usually clears within a few days after all the fillings have been removed, and then you have the burden of removing these infections. So amalgam removal is still necessary of course. In more difficult cases, amalgam removal is not enough, however. Trevor Marshall mentions the possibility of some pathogens causing abnormal levels of some Vitamin D forms in body, which causes immunosuppression.
I think it is entirely reasonable to say that the combination of ALA+DMSA is aimed at pathogens, ALA in particular (according to my own experience). But going too much focused on the mercury leaves also other important issues unresolved. Ammonia detoxification is one issue that is rarely spoken about here, but I found myself that it is very important. Too often people leave this forum brain-fogged, and mentally fatigued after they think they are ok enough. This too can be addressed with correct supplements, those which Andy does not talk about.
Perhaps there are some "undocumented" effects of DMSA outside of metal chelation, but until that time, the only explanation I have for what it did for me was.... metal chelation. Otherwise DMSA would have and SHOULD have worked for me when I had an even worse pathogen problem with all my infections, yet it didn't. It only worked when I was chronically mercury toxic or had re-exposure....why? because it was removing the source of one of my problems (mercury).
IT does not explan antifungals only treated yeast, whereas DMSA treated my metal toxicity.....Whatever other effects you or those you read come up with, there is no denying it is a metal chelating agent also and therefore results from using may also be from removing metals too.... Perhaps not in every case, I don't know. Personally I have tried DMSA many times when just dealing with pathogens and had no improvements at all. Then we re-exposed to mercury again...usually I find it helps. Sorry, but it's never helped me with pathogens yet. How do you know that the positive effects of DMSA cannot be explained by metal chelation alone? I'd imagine it could very well be explained by it, considering a person is in a much better position to fight other problems if there is less mercury around to hurt them ...How do you know some do not excrete mercury while using it yet still experience improvement? It is very very hard to get an accurate level of mercury and I don't personally believe there is any ideal way to measure that. Some people can be poisoned by very little mercury. It only takes me one visit to a dental office and I get poisoned. If it was just direct problems, once out of there, I'd be bouncing back. I would not require chelation, especially as I'm always treating my yeast. It takes me many months to get the stuff out because it stays in there. Many people retain mercury, holding onto it so tight they stay ill for ages following exposure. I usually require chelation to get it back out. Sadly I don't excrete it very well and levels don't often show up with me properly. That's why I hurt so badly with it. Those that do well, are the ones that show high levels during chelation. The stuff is coming out and coming out rather well. Lucky them. Dr Paula Bickle (USA) speaks about this and addresses a whole audience of doctors. She understand this and talks about retention toxicity (mercury) and how difficult these patients are to treat and get a level of mercury to show up. I think she should know her stuff, considering she's addressing a large audience of fully qualified doctors and talks also about the role of chelation and what they do, etc etc.
You talk about mercury's effect on immunity, yet you seem to disregard the fact that it's an accummulative poison and here is where I think me and you are clearly divided. mercury does indeed build up in the tissues;/organs and brain. They've done studies on sheep (cruel admitedly), mercury does get deposited in the brain and other areas of the body.
Once amalgams are gone. amalgam removal alone is not the cure for mercury burden or effects (wishful thinking), because the long term metal accummulation that remains continues to poison the person until they chelate it back out. amalgams are not just dangerous because of their direct effects on the body systems/immunity, they are dangerous because of the insidious build up of toxicity. It isn't just the direct effects of mercury, it's the fact people are exposed to it 24/7 and the body does indeed store what it cannot eliminate....Of course their ability to control pathogens/infections is going to be seriously suppressed and then you wind up with a multifactoral problem and having to usually treat more than one issue at once to gain any kind of improvement.
Qualified doctors/natural health therapists know this. My own doctor knows this. One of the best doctors in New Zealand knows this. I don't know of any qualified physician who works in mercury that doesn't know this. They study this. mercury is known to accummulate/build up in tissues/organs/brain. Otherwise all we would need to do is, remove amalgams and just treat yeast....sorry but that doesn't quite cut it in a truly chronically mercury toxic person. It would if the person hasn't much mercury build up I guess, but not someone with a high body/brain burden of mercury. I've seen this often on the candida forums. You can almost spot them sometimes. No amount of treating their pathogens gets rid of certain stubborn toxicity symptoms. I had this and it was mercury and I know full well it was.
The stuff must come out and usually it has to be helped out by taking stuff that has an affinity for metals. mercury poisoning symptoms are documented, they can be pretty horrific, both acute or chronic poisoning. The detox from metals is also nasty, what goes in that hurts, usually hurts in coming back out. How can it not? You get re-exposed to it eachtime you stir it up, sometimes more symptoms result on the way out than in... Killing off pathogens also hurt, but nothing quite gets me like metals.
Once again, I am not disputing the pathogen relationship to all this and never have. But let's not push mercury to oneside or treat it as a side issue, when often it is the very reason and ongoing reason why people continue to have big big problems with infections of all kinds. And who knows which symptoms exactly come from what, when there are so many things no doubt happening at once. This is why you will see people on here treating yeast and parasites/pathogens and finding it "helps" but somehow....those that are mercury toxic seem to only get so far with it. If chelation was all about pathogens, in a mercury toxic person, it's a very expensive way to go about doing it (DMSA?)...and certainly as I said, it never did a thing for my yeasts/pathogens, it was only ever effective if I had been exposed to metals and it did a good job in pulling them back out of me. I felt it, I knew something was happening. I wish antifungals had done that and given long term results, I'd have saved a lot of money doing it that way instead. But they didn't.
Antifungals worked short term, chelation produced long term resutls from removing the source of the problem (metals). So that way, I could discontinue using it and find I was improving the more I used it and finding (at that time) that I could over time, get a bit looser on my diet as my body was now in a better position to fight yeast. amalgam removal alone did not do this, antifungals/diet alone did not do this. chelation combined with the others DID do this. The pathogens treatments were always aids, but never removed the metals. One wrong move on diet and I'd plummet. Yet overtime treatment of metals and my body would begin getting stronger against the pathogens. Right now, I don't know what the issue is, but I feel it's infection/viral related, which is why I cannot go off my diet at all, or again I plummet. Because the underlying problem is ongoing.
I appreciate your pathogens/infections comments and reminders to people realise there is more to this, but I find your moving mercury off to the side as much as possible somewhat...curious to be honest.
And stating that the negative effects of mercury usually clears with a few days of amalgam removal is totally misleading and actually disregards just about every thing I've read on mercury and the doctors/health therapists who have studied and written about it. Wow, you should tell my doctor who has studied overseas on this issue. They even do challenge tests to measure increases in mercury (if they do it right). Andy discusses this also, there are proper ways of doing it to actually get a level of it, but often it's done incorrectly and instead leads to a worsening of symptoms and sometimes permanent damage.
Quote: I think it is entirely reasonable to say that the combination of ALA+DMSA is aimed at pathogens, ALA in particular (according to my own experience). But going too much focused on the mercury leaves also other important issues unresolved. Ammonia detoxification is one issue that is rarely spoken about here, but I found myself that it is very important. Too often people leave this forum brain-fogged, and mentally fatigued after they think they are ok enough. This too can be addressed with correct supplements, those which Andy does not talk about.
The combination of DMSA and ALA is not aimed at pathogens, it is aimed at metal chelation, which is why Cutler talks about frequent dose chelating when one is dealing with mercury or they can make matters far worse from redistribution. You would not require doing this if it was just about pathogens, mercury is the one the right protocol to reduce redistribution risks and possible permanent damage from wrong chelation or at least long term pain! I've been there. It is about removing the body/brain burdens of stored mercury and thus allowing the body to better tackle other issues that were created by the mercury in the first place.
Andy does not talk in depth about pathogens because his main studies is mercury and how to chelate it out of the human body. He concentrates on this and this is why he has planned out such an effective protocol for many people and why he was able to cure himself also. I don't think I am completely blaming mercury for all symptoms, but I think it is reasonable to suspect it strongly in many cases of stubborn yeast (even post amalgam removal). So it's good to get a balance here, but again one can go the other extreme in my opinion and playing down the role of mercury toxicity and accummulation and concentrating on pathogens and having people believe that so long as they get amalgams removed, they only need to treat their pathogens and any improvements they gain from chelation is just...pathogens, not the fact that metal chelating agents may have chelated metals out of them.
This forum by the way is directed at amalgam fillings and mercury poisoning. It is not a pathogen forum with mercury as a side issue.
Thanks Sunshine. Excuse the length of it, I'm sure it could have been shorter. I can't quite explain myself too well on this issue without being lengthy. I'm concerned for people on here that maybe under the impression that amalgam removal alone is the removal of amalgam toxicity. When this is far from the end, just the beginning of treating this volatile poison.
In fact Sunshine, I can tell you now. Since my last dental visit and exposure to mercury vapors in the dental office? I have my old mercury symptoms back again, including the same detox ones I had all those years of trying to chelate it after amalgam removal. I'm spitting the taste of metal all over again. Feeling it even behind the eyes too. Never going back if I can help it. One potent source of amalgam vapor exposure is the dental office. I need ALA I know it!!!! But for now, I think with all my supplements etc, my body is already trying to expel some of it, but it's just very very slow.
I had the same urine test as you for heavy metals. Was yours through Doctors Data? I did a lot of research prior to getting this test and believe it is the best way to test for toxic metals. Of course, I really respect my doctor and may be bias because that is the only one he will use. He is very big on research and specializes in these kind of treatments.
I took 300 mg of DMSA and collected the urine for 6 hours. I also did the test prior to that without taking the DMSA. Did you do the pre and post tests? The pre test would most likely indicate what is in your body from your amalgams and diet. The post test will pull out what is being stored deep in the tissues. I had all of my amalgams out for almost 5 months when I took the test. Here are my scores;
Pre test 1
Post test 14 (high levels of mercury)
I did about 4 months of chelation, taking Detox Max with EDTA and DMSA. It was only every other week, but I took rather high doses compared to what other people write about. 300 mg of DMSA every other week. I also had about 10 FIRS sessions at 30 minutes each and drank tons of greens shakes. These were my scores after 1 year of healthy dieting and the 4 months of chelation.
Pre test 1.5
post test 2.5
It is possible to get rid of the mercury, but I would recommend that you get the amalgams replaced first. I was on a very healthy anticandida diet for over a year before I even had them out. It is important to have good digestion and elimination before trying to chelate. You do not want to have it redistributed back into the body. Potentially somewhere that would give you worse symptoms.
Let me know if you have any questions. Also, if you don't mind, what were your scores on the test?
Sorry, I forgot to answer your initial questions. I replaced my amalgams with composite and it was covered by my insurance. 80% at least. I had a DMO and they would not cover any of it, so I switched to a better insurance. For my husband and I, the insurance cost me about $75 a month, so it is not cheap. my amalgams were very old and my dentist listed them as "defective". It was basically the same cost as a filing. I took a chance and went to a regular dentist, but don't really recommend this to others. So, the cost would be more for a Biological dentist. Only 60% is covered by a biological dentist with my insurance. My dentist used all the safety protocols except I had no oxygen or safety goggles.
Bex. Sorry don't have too much time now to answer.
But, I never said amalgam removal is enough, so your concern about that is unnecessary. This is what I said:
"This negative effect of mercury usually clears within a few days after all the fillings have been removed, and then you have the burden of removing these infections."
So, what you need to do is to clear your infections, they can be viral, bacterial, parasitic in nature. I consider that the supplements I take are aimed at these and nothing else, even if ALA is included. mercury is anti-bacterial/fungal as well so it can actually kill pathogens too (ask any expert about why thimerosal is added into Vaccines). The reason why you got bad reactions from visiting the dental office could be explained by this mechanism, and the symptoms you gave are really ammonia related (chest pain etc.), caused by a die-off. I also got some of them, but only when I attempted to kill pathogens. You can get these symptoms in various ways (mine came from use of B12), because many things work against pathogens. You should also take into account that the majority of the population in the world tolerates amalgam fillings well, regardless if their exposure is high, and they must accumulate mercury too.
On the top of my head, one reason why DMSA could be effective is that hydrogen sulfide binds to same things as mercury, so DMSA will chelate hydrogen sulfide from gut dysbiosis as well (you have wrong bacterias in gut, producing too much toxic hydrogen sulfide). To the best of my knowledge, it will give better results, if one concentrates more on the pathogens than on mercury.
pgm, i think you make a good point here. I believe that many toxic people do not have a higher body burden than healthy people. I think it is the way how our body/ especially our immune system reacts to it. That's why we need to remove all mercury from our mouth or we won't get well.
I am not sure if killing off pathogens is enough. I feel that we need to reduce our body burden and limit mercury exposure so that our immune system can permanently recover.
If you are correct it would very easy to recover from mercury toxicity. Just remove the amalgams and take the right supplements for a few weeks and you are cured.
I don't know however if pathogens are to blame for all mercury symptoms. How do you explain terrible permanent worsening from inapproprate chelation (dmsa every other day, DMPS IV etc) and people getting better with appropriate chelation.
For example: The guy who takes 200mg ALA once a day gets much worse and than improves with the same substance on a 3 hour schedule? If it were just pathogens why would this happen?
After reviewing this member's history, we have concluded that they were attempting to discredit our system with malice. They have been banned.
Quote: But, I never said amalgam removal is enough, so your concern about that is unnecessary. This is what I said:
"This negative effect of mercury usually clears within a few days after all the fillings have been removed, and then you have the burden of removing these infections."
I was correct in my concern. What you are saying is that the negative effects of mercury usually clear within days after all fillings are removed....this flies in the face of just about every expert I know on mercury, both on the net and in reality and I will go with them everytime. Again I will repeat, mercury is not just a direct poison in its effect on immunity, it is an accummulative poison. It builds up in tissues/organs and brain, which is why removing amalgams is not removing the stored poisons. Because of this, it is required that people who have been poisoned by the stuff (long term), need to chelate it back out. Pathogens or no pathogens, stored mercury will continue to poison the body systems and allow pathogens to flourish due to keeping the person toxic. So the person usually suffers from multiple toxicities. You can kill pathogens as much as you like, they continue to come back until stored mercury is chelated out (if that is your problem).
Quote: So, what you need to do is to clear your infections, they can be viral, bacterial, parasitic in nature. I consider that the supplements I take are aimed at these and nothing else, even if ALA is included. mercury is anti-bacterial/fungal as well so it can actually kill pathogens too (ask any expert about why thimerosal is added into Vaccines). The reason why you got bad reactions from visiting the dental office could be explained by this mechanism, and the symptoms you gave are really ammonia related (chest pain etc.), caused by a die-off. I also got some of them, but only when I attempted to kill pathogens. You can get these symptoms in various ways (mine came from use of B12), because many things work against pathogens. You should also take into account that the majority of the population in the world tolerates amalgam fillings well, regardless if their exposure is high, and they must accumulate mercury too.
Uh huh, so what I need to do is just clear my infections. As if I haven't been doing that for years already and eating the right foods, taking the right stuff. Sorry more to it than that.
People here use DMSA or ALA to clear their body/brain storage of mercury not pathogens, because that is what they are designed for. They are not pathogen chelating agents, they are metal chelating agents, as well as ALA having antioxidant properties. If you use them for pathogens, that is your business but one must wonder if that is so, why would you use it Andy Cutler style? Considering you don't seem to believe much else of what he says....and this style of chelating has zero to do with pathogens, it's designed for the nature of mercury and the way it works. Andy's protocol is unique for this alone. So I'm curious as to why you'd go through the annoyance of the every 3 hour dosage for....."pathogens". mercury redistribution by the way has harmed people many times, in some cases caused permanent damage. mercury must be removed by tissues/organs and brain as safely as possible and Andy has studied this for years and found the best way to do so. Maybe you ought to tell him that he's wasted his time and it's all about pathogens afterall every other doctor I know of who studies this and chelates their mercury toxic patients from stored mercury are.....also wrong.
Quote: The reason why you got bad reactions from visiting the dental office could be explained by this mechanism, and the symptoms you gave are really ammonia related (chest pain etc.), caused by a die-off. I also got some of them, but only when I attempted to kill pathogens. You can get these symptoms in various ways (mine came from use of B12), because many things work against pathogens. You should also take into account that the majority of the population in the world tolerates amalgam fillings well, regardless if their exposure is high, and they must accumulate mercury too.
The reasons I got sick from a dental office visit is just breathing in mercury vapors, it's happened each and everytime. Happens to a few others also. Not all people get this, depends on how sensitive a person is with mercury and how well they handle exposure. I have already taken into account that there are people who tolerate amalgams very well, I've said this in many of my posts and even if the exposure is high......we all know this. IN using them as a way to play down mercury's problems in the rest of us (other than pathgoens) is kind of insulting. People react to things very differently and some have a better immune status, or less reactivity, or less tendency to retain the mercury than others. However, I will say this. Just about everybody in my family that has amalgams is not exactly what I would call specimens of health either. I take a look at two much older people in my family with false teeth and they're standouts as far as health goes. Interesting that. But mercury seems to really effect certain people profoundly and I'm one of them. I am also coincidentally highly senstive to all metals and cannot wear any jewellery. I also do not have a very good immune system, as shown by my constant vulnerabilities and difficulty in healing.
The mechanism of mercury on bacteria may work when it is added to preparations, but unfortunately there is a difference when mercury is poisoning a human body.
Sorry pgm, the difference with mercury in the human body and a vaccine is a very different matter and you'll find a person who gets poisoned by mercury because they tend to retain it, rather than excrete it is usually a mess with pathogens as we see on this forum. The effects on the immune system, the effects on every body system with mercury is profound. They have done studies already on that and autopsies to find mercury accummulates in organs and brain which is really the cause of most of the ongoing problems we see. So we know that as it's the most toxic metal around, it definitely is not benign and continues to poison until chelated back out.
Frankly I feel like I am going around in circles. First of all you said that mercury allows pathogens to flourish because of it's affect on immunity.....now you say that mercury actually kills off bactera, so it kills the pathogens inside of us.....and now you're "explaining" to me why I got sick from the dental office and how it's really related to pathogens and ammonia, not exposure symptoms from mercury vapor....Well I know what I experienced, I recognise metal toxicity when it hits me and I recognise pathogens and pathgoen die off. And this is not pathogen related. The effects of mercury on me are recognised easily. I had it for years. I know almost immediately when I'm in contact with the stuff.
Believe me, my pathgoens didn't die off. As with any toxic exposure, I'm battling a worse pathogen problem than I was. Happens everytime. Unfortunately pgm, unless a person chelates their mercury out (not just amalgam removal), they'll usually continue to battle their pathogens/infections and related problems (hormonal too) as long as the mercury stays there. E.g. the pituatory gland is one that mercury poisons also and then people are attempting to treat all their hormonal problems with many different things in an attempt to gain relief. With chelation, there is usually a profound improvement in related pathogen overgrowth as well as other issues that resulted from it. But as with anything, it takes a long time.
It's not really wise to treat one without the other. If one concentrates more on either of these things, they may wind up disappointed as I did. Both of these issues should be treated with equal enthusiasm, but if the underlying problem is poisoning by mercury than it is a no brainer that the stored mercury needs to be chelated out of there on a safe and effective protocol so as to not make matters unnecessarily worse.
As far as I know, unless the underlying problem is not dealt with, the most marathon efforts towards pathogens will usually be a short term remedy.
I found a doctor in New York that treated me for 2.5 years, every other week with DMPS ( followed 2 days later by vit and Mineral drip). The last year with DMPS and Ca EDTA. For curiosity, I did a test where I went back to using Cutlers ALA protocol and then did the same 24 hour urine test as I usually did for the DMPS, the result was less than a 10th the usual amount being excreted. This in my opinion is the reason people spend so much time on these boards being sick using this protocol. It took me 2.5 years to get most of this poison out, I can’t imagine doing it for 20+ years.
40yrs, i thought about the urine testing you did and your calculations may not be correct.
You want to compare mercury excretion on a 3 day ALA round vs 1 DMPS IV treatment.
For this have to measure mercury excretion over a 72 hour period. You did only 24.
Even in that case IV DMPS is 3 times more effective than ALA. The problem is that you did only urine testing. With IV DMPS most mercury comes out in the urine. ALA increases mercury in urine and feces. Most of it is excreted in the feces.
So the correct way to do this would be:
72 hour ALAmercury excretion in feces and urine
24 hour IV DMPS mercury excretion in feces and urine
It's 'unfair' to compare DMPS with ALA and test just urine. DMPS will cause urine excretion. ALA causes excretion in feces.
I believe if you would do it that way it would show that ALA is a potent mercury chelator. You suggested it would take 20 years of ALA chelation to get the poison out.
If you measure the 72 hour period urine excretion it would be 'only' 7.5 years. If you add fecal mercury excretion probably only a fraction of that.... Cutler says it takes 1-4 years to detox.
Let me know what you think.
Edited by bg123 (03/14/0802:57 PM)
After reviewing this member's history, we have concluded that they were attempting to discredit our system with malice. They have been banned.
I recently spent lots of time on the Marshall protocol study site. http://www.marshallprotocol.com, its a very good place to study chronic diseases. One thing you're wrong about Bex, is that pathogens are extremely persistent. E.g. a chronic mycoplasma infection takes YEARS to clear, and it is not identified even, it goes unnoticed in the vast majority of cases by mainstream medicine.
People on the Marshall protocol use anti-biotics + D-vitamin lowering drug called Benicar, in a frequent dose style manner in phase 1. This bears much resemblance to the FDC of the Cutler protocol. At the Marshall study site they have people being cured from any chronic diseases, just name it: diabetes, bipolar disorder, sarcoidosis, fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue syndrome, lyme... It is quite clear that it is pathogens that are responsible for the chronic illnesses (because anti-biotics are used) and not mercury like Andy Cutler claims. I've spotted Andy on an MS forum, saying that MS (Multiple Sclerosis) is caused by mercury, and people there got angry about such a statement, because some of them removed their fillings but didn't get cured, not even though many years passed after their removal. Some also do not have any mercury fillings, but yet do have chronic illnesses like MS.
Immunopathology is the keyword they use on the MP site for Herx reactions. People on anti-biotics get metallic taste, pain flare ups, chest pains, tachycardia, heart palps, etc. Metallic taste for one thing is definitely caused by various things, I've seen people with kidney failure get this also, and people getting too much acetaldehyde in their system.
Finally they think that mercury is not a matter at all on the MP site, and do not advise their patients to take away their amalgam fillings. Fish Oil (contains Vit D), and Vitamin D is poison according to them, because it is an immunosuppressive steroid. Avoid it!
What goes for mercury, it is immunosuppressive too, but at the same time an anti-bacterial agent. The reason why some of us get sick from mercury fillings while others do not is probably not that we have faulty immune systems, but rather because we had some pathogens from the beginning in our system, that mercury made much worse. I know for sure I had mycoplasma before I got my mercury filling and it didnt go away apparently, just lying there dormant, causing too little problems to be noticed even. Just look in your past before you got any fillings, you probably had some subtle problems before you got your fillings.
Mycoplasma are rather benign bacterias compared to lyme for example, but they are damn persistent, and can cause every chronic disease in the world. They can also multiply in your system, like mercury cannot do, once you remove your fillings. The mercury-pathogen relationship I suggest makes mercury even more dangerous than "mercury causes everything", because then the amount of mercury in itself is not the crucial factor that determines your condition, but rather the time of exposure, and the exposure can be so small, that your body is able to excrete everything, leaving nothing more left than your pathogen farm (because mercury allowed the pathogens to multiply).
My own immunopathology went exactly like they described (after mercury removal) on the MP site (once you start on their protocol), symptoms flared up, when your body starts clearing up the infections. You will notice pains everywhere, at places which have never bothered you before, even in the jaw and in teeth, kidneys, joints etc. This is not mercury. It is not even the bacterias themselves, but rather the response of your immune system that creates this. Dead remains of bacterias that float through your liver causing back pain and gallstones, in amounts that is completely unrealistic to blaim mercury for.
It has to be said that I do not agree with the MPists about not being necessary to remove your fillings. That's the least thing you can do, but it may not be enough. The reason is that pathogens can make your Vit D status in body very high, and shutting down your immune system. Then you cant ever get well by removing your fillings, but have to go on the Marshall protocol. They have hundreds of patients on that site, with some success stories. The time to get well is the same as from amalgam illness, several years.
I must admit i am not too familiar with the marshall protocol but i do not like it because i find it is logically flawed...
I will keep this as short as possible:
1. Modern Chronic Disease = toxins + nutritional deficiencies - It's not caused by overexposure to sunlight and underexposure to mercury vapor
2. Pathogens do exist for billions of years - Modern Chronic Disease is a very recent phenomenon. Do you really think it's the pathogens going crazy in the past hundred years?
3. The human body is built to get exposed to sunlight. Most people do not get enough sunlight - Did chronic disease disappear because we spend so much time indoor?
It's insane to say that sunlight + Vitamin D is harmful to us. Would you believe a person who says Vitamin C is bad for you? And yes please do NEVER take Fish Oil because it's such a harmful substance and if you do make sure it's a product with mercury in it.
4. Do not take your amalgam fillings out.You may get well and don't need the marshall protocol anymore. Yeah right, mercury is a health enhancing substance.
Conclusion: Humans and pathogens exist for a very long time. So does sunlight. In the past hundred years chronic disease has become widespread. We have many diseases that are unknown in primitive cultures. The stupid people there don't know how harmful sunlight is and unfortunately they don't have antibiotics. For some strange reason they have much less chronic degenerative diseases than we do.
Quote: One thing you're wrong about Bex, is that pathogens are extremely persistent. E.g. a chronic mycoplasma infection takes YEARS to clear, and it is not identified even, it goes unnoticed in the vast majority of cases by mainstream medicine.
You need to read my posts more thoroughly before jumping to wrong conclusions. I do not doubt pathogens, nor such infections as lyme disease etc and the ongoing lengthy treatments of infections like this (if in fact a person is suffering from them). I've mentioned that on here too, so I'm simply repeating myself. I'm usually talking about needing to treat pathogens, as well as chelating stored mercury......so I'm somewhat bewildered by your ongoing need to state otherwise or the issue you have with stored mercury and the need to ignore it.
Your post is interesting and compelling, but how does this invalidate my statements on stored mercury? I have already stated my belief in pathogens on here and it's up to people to persue that area more if they wish. It is also up to people if they want to work on any stored mercury they believe maybe continuing to cause problems.
I think I will need to repeat the statements of my previous posts, because they are being ignored/overlooked. So here they are again restated in a slightly different way. mercury poisoning, for many, is not just about the direct effects of amalgams or even the post effects, it is often about the years worth of accummulated mercury in tissues/organs/brain that requires chelation if a person wishes to truly rid themselves of this toxin.
Repeating previous statements I've made: Pathogens need to be treated, but accummulated stored mercury needs to be chelated. amalgam removal alone and treating pathogens is not a cure for many people who find they need to rid themselves of stored metals as well. This is logical. Treating pathogens can take years and it will definitely take years if the person has stored mercury that they are not dealing with also. Missing out one or the other maybe a mistake.
Pgm, you have I think admitted you have had "one" amalgam. I am not sure how this might compare with the others on here (who usually have or had many more than that) and how much accummated mercury would result from one amalgam. Perhaps your issues are indeed all pathogen related. However, as other people have usually had many more amalgams and often many years, and as mercury accummulates, then it is wise that they should persue chelation of stored mercury, as well as pathogens. Ridding themselves of stored mercury, should also help their fight against pathogens.
I have also asked you more than once now, ---> why are you using the every 3 hour protocol of Andrew Cutler's (Alpha Lipoic Acid) for "pathogens"? The protocol is designed only for mercury and the way mercury works and how to remove it safely. It is not designed for pathgoens. You would be free to use ALA anyway you wish, as your issues are pathogens, not stored mercury. Why subject yourself to the ongoing inconvenience of waking every 3 hours? Or at least having to take a pill every 3 hours? No need to do this at all if you do not have stored mercury.
Again, more repeats of previous statements --->. I did not claim that mercury poisoning is responsible for every symptom. I have mentioned pathogens time and time again on here. Die- off included. I don't think anybody can conceiveably know each and every issue or symptom and EXACTLY what is creating what in all circumstances. Therefore again it is wise not to ignore either issue and both should therefore be persued and treated if one is to gain improvement or even cure from the overall condition. If amalgam removal and chelation, diet and supplements do not do the trick (which I've seen with some), then surely there is another underlying factor that needs to be properly dealt with. And perhaps that could be a more serious infection.
I am simply repeating over and over previous statements.....
I also cannot vouch for any professional having full knowledge of all things and the ability to test everything and having the results that explain everything that is going on. I find it more interesting to read differing professional thoughts on these matters and then applying it and finding what works. The proof of the pudding, as they say, is in the eating. What you suffer and what someone else suffers maybe different and what works for you? may not work for them. We can only pass on what helped us and hope that someone else benefits from that. I have personally found Andy Cutler's statements, for the most part, more accurate (at least in my own situation) of any I've come across so far. Other protocols to treat mercury have been disastrous and painful. His was more tolerable. I figure that if enough other people find the same, then it is a good thing to recommend it. Whether you believe it's all for pathogens or not is of no consequence, you didn't design his protocol, he did. And it was designed for mercury, not pathogens. You also haven't had the indepth study of mercury that he has and the years worth of figuring out how best to deal with it, treat it and chelate it. You're welcome to persue pathogens and recommend the same to others, but please stop accusing me of denying the pathogen relationship to mercury. It gets old after a while.
Repeated statement: This is an amalgam/mercury toxic forum, people are here to treat mercury (not just pathogens) and chelate the storage back out of their bodies and brains, which can also take years.
Quote: People on the Marshall protocol use anti-biotics + D-vitamin lowering drug called Benicar, in a frequent dose style manner in phase 1. This bears much resemblance to the FDC of the Cutler protocol.
The style of use may resemble the protocol, but that's as far as the resemblence gets. They are treating two different problems. Obviously effective in their own way.
Quote: It is quite clear that it is pathogens that are responsible for the chronic illnesses (because anti-biotics are used) and not mercury like Andy Cutler claims.
How can you make such a bold statement in the light of many professionals around the world who have studied mercury and its effects, plus treatment/chelation and witnessed the results of their own patients (testing and otherwise), plus the experiences of many on these forums?. I believe your statement is WRONG. mercury is responsible for a vast number of symptoms that coincidentally imitate many of the "modern day diseases". This is verified by many highy qualified physicians around the world. Pathogens too!
Quote: I've spotted Andy on an MS forum, saying that MS (Multiple Sclerosis) is caused by mercury, and people there got angry about such a statement, because some of them removed their fillings but didn't get cured, not even though many years passed after their removal.
Here is the quote from Andy:
Quote: Andy Cutler wrote:
The cause of MS is already well known - mercury from dental amalgam and Vaccines. Of course doctors don't like to study how they CAUSE disease so there are few papers on this - but see Huggins and Levy in Alternative Medicine Review, online, for conclusive proof.
MS sufferers who want to let bad doctors keep hurting them can wait decades for a drug that might help a little. MS sufferers who want to get well already have the tools to do this - mercury detox - which you can find discussed at www.noamalgam.com or on listservers such as the "frequent dose chelation" group on yahoo.com.
It is shockingly unethical for reporters to write stories about this kind of drivel and ignore seminal papers like those by Huggins and Levy, helping perpetuate the myth that MS is incurable and has no known cause.
Do you think him and huggins, seeing as they've studied mercury for many years may actually have a "point"?
Did these MS victims on that forum you spoke of thoroughly and safely remove their amalgams AND then follow a proper chelation protocol for years following? e.g. the Cutler protocol? Do they speak for everybody?
Quote: Some also do not have any mercury fillings, but yet do have chronic illnesses like MS
So the fact that "some" didn't have any amalgam fillings, but had chronic illnesses somehow cancels out mercury's effect on others right? And you must be aware of other exposures to mercury other than amalgams? E.g. Vaccines, coal burning plants, seafood, paint, tattoos and don't forget the felt hats that contained mercury, which gave the name "mad hatters" due to the mercury effects it had on those exposed to it. One guy on a forum I am on had no amalgams and was previously very healthy, until he was severely poisoned by mercury in his job (fire fighter) from house paint. He's spent years chelating it back out and is recovering slowly. There are other toxins and issues that could cause MS symptoms or "MS" itself I'm sure. mercury being only one possible cause or contributing factor.
I am finding your ongoing attempts to cancel out or at least "play down" mercury's role and accummulative effects somewhat suspicious on a forum such as this, especially in light of plenty of other highly qualified professionals who deal in mercury poisoning and treatment and the victims of it.
Why would you follow Andy's protocol and chelating agents, when you discount so much of what he says in regards to mercury? With only having "one" amalgam (please excuse and correct me if I am wrong in that) you may not be such a great textbook case to work from in respect to mercury and its accummulative effects. Though I have heard some people can be profoundly affected by just "one" amalgam. Hal Huggins speaks of a case with a young teenager whose one small pit amalgam stood in the way of him and a promising life. Removed the amalgam, he came right. It can happen. however, it sounds to me too like he may not have had the backlog of storage that many others have to deal with. You too may not have this problem either. It really does depend on overall exposure, your body's own threshold and length of time you were exposed to the stuff, before you can confidentally claim that it's not really mercury, but all pathogens.
I think that the Marshall Protocol is worth looking at. From a quick look, it seems that they are saying that you should avoid VitD and sunshine for the duration of the treatment, not that it is bad for you normally.
They will not be right about everything, no-one is, and I accept mercury being a major factor in chronic ill health, but there may be something in the bacteria thing I think so I am having a good look into this. It does not have to be either or, it could be both in the majority of cases. One thing that I have been thinking of, is the condition of my two sons when they were babies. They were in good condition at birth and thrived then after a few months stopped gaining weight as well etc. They must have had mercury from me in utero, but they got worse later which would fit in with the bacteria theory better as it says ont he site that they can have the problem pased on and/or aquire it later.
I don't think that anythihng is worth discounting until one understands the theory properly Bex.
For the last time, I am not discounting pathogens or treatments!!. How can I? I'm dealing with it myself and do not claim to even understand it all either (or enough of it). Please read my posts and see how many times I have had to repeat this ad nauseum on here. I've already said that pgm's post was interesting/compelling, and I've not denied the bacteria or treatment of requirement, but why is he/she denying the fact mercury accummulates in tissue/organs and brain and also needs treatment (chelation) too?
I have not denied pathogens, nor would I claim to understand this or the Marshall protocol. But the denial or ignoring of accummulated mercury bewilders me.
I am at a loss at how I can actually get through. Repeating myself non stop apparently doesn't work.
Nobody I have ever spoken to, inlcuding Cutler has ever said that ALA comes out more in Feces than Urine. The only thing that ALA and DMPS do is pull the Hg out into the blood system so that your kidneys and liver can get rid of it. I've also never read anything that said anything about a difference in the route out of the body. If you have anything that says that I'd be very interested in reading it. Until then, I did a 2 day ALA course then took a 24 hour urine test. As far as I can see it comes out at about 1/10th the rate of DMPS, maybe slower. If it took 2.5 years for me using the most effective chelator there is, then it's going to take a hell of allot longer using ALA. I really don't see the point in doing a feces test because you would still end up with the same result, except for the ALA you'd end up with allot of Hg in your brain, but I don't know how you would measure that.
Quote: Nobody I have ever spoken to, inlcuding Cutler has ever said that ALA comes out more in Feces than Urine. The only thing that ALA and DMPS do is pull the Hg out into the blood system so that your kidneys and liver can get rid of it. I've also never read anything that said anything about a difference in the route out of the body. If you have anything that says that I'd be very interested in reading it. Until then, I did a 2 day ALA course then took a 24 hour urine test. As far as I can see it comes out at about 1/10th the rate of DMPS, maybe slower. If it took 2.5 years for me using the most effective chelator there is, then it's going to take a hell of allot longer using ALA. I really don't see the point in doing a feces test because you would still end up with the same result, except for the ALA you'd end up with allot of Hg in your brain, but I don't know how you would measure that.
Here is a link where research shows that it increases biliary excretion of mercury and andy Cutler's comments... As far as i know biliary excretion is via the feces.
I will look for a link where he says more of the mercury tends to come out in the feces.
I looked this up in amalgam Illness and to make things even more confusing it seems that DMPS also can increase excretion in feces but not as much as lipoic acid. DMPS seems cause more excretion of mercury via the kidneys while lipoic acid seems to cause more excretion of mercury in the feces. So to understand what is really going on we need to test both in feces and urine...
Edited by bg123 (03/27/0807:40 AM)
After reviewing this member's history, we have concluded that they were attempting to discredit our system with malice. They have been banned.
Bex, I've not seen much advice from you to others on this forum regarding how to clean yourself up from pathogens, although you mention that you are yourself affected, and say that you acknowledge the pathogens. But you mostly only mention the Cutler protocol, the mercury and the diet, so there is a reason for me to suspect that you have not grasped the importance of the pathogens and how to treat them. Not any accusations from my part, just pointing out things which I disagree on. Your bias towards mercury is no small, nearly everything you talk about seems to be somehow caused directly by mercury in you. I have to say again I disagree on this, and have the right to do so.
Being focused on mercury leaves people here missing other important treatments, like ozone therapy, which appears to be highly effective against pathogens, other supplements, ammonia detoxification. etc. The anti-candida diet is also an important factor in mycoplasma treatment, not only related to candida.
A point I'm also trying to make is that you cant have both mercury and pathogens causing chronic diseases, immunopathologies (aka Herx), this is unacceptable. Metals and pathogens, they are something completely different. Because chronic diseases are seen with and without mercury, then it can't be mercury that is responsible for them, not at least directly. This is not to say that some people with MS are not harmed by mercury, but it is not mercury in itself that causes MS.
Accumulative poison or not, the chelation therapies may not even be so effective, Ray Saarela mentioned on the amalgam list, that there was a guy who chelated alot, but died in cancer later, and the autopsy revealed still lots of mercury. What is more important is that blood levels of mercury should be low, because this affects immunity. I wouldn't be too worried about what you have accumulated, if the blood levels are low. Once you get your body rolling again, it will clean up whatever it can by itself. Some excrete mercury in various ways, it comes out also during pathogen treatment. But of course everyone does as she/he wishes. I'm not seeing any harm in mercury chelation either, as long as you don't damage your liver with chelators. Also take it from a different viewpoint: the people on the Marshallprotocol site probably consider Vitamin D more dangerous than the amounts of mercury coming from amalgam fillings, and they have still been successful in treating chronic diseases, probably more so than any other protocol, because they are understanding very well what they are doing.
Lipoic acid is also used in treatments against mycoplasma, but I'm sure it will work against other bugs as well. The low frequent dose scheme, according to my understanding is aimed at minimizing the immunopathology, while still being effective, as is explained for the drugs used in the Marshall protocol. I'm not abandoning things that appear to work well (ALA+DMSA), but just providing explanations which I have found to describe my symptoms better. The reason why some protocols work better than others is the minimization of immunopathology, while still being effective.
Fancy me talking about "mercury" on an amalgam fillings/mercury poisoning forum pgm. I should really have my hand slapped.
You know what? I am ill, I was ill for years with mercury and treated it and started getting well. My downfall came after viral infection in 2003. I did not have the infection before, even with the mercury toxicity. I didn't even have nearly as bad yeast issues either. Not sure if you can explain that one, but you keep acting as though you know better than me about what I had. You do not. Chelation helped me with mercury. But no amount of chelation helped me with infections, only wtih mercury.
I am not studied in pathogens, I am also very tired and am not so great on sitting down and getting involved in the entire pathogen idea. So I do my best to give as much advice as I can that I feel might help. no it is not perfect, I'm not perfect, I am not qualified and I am also not obligated to pass ANYTHING onto anybody. I do it from the bits I know and people can choose to try it or ignore it, or go their own way and do their own study.
What exactly are you expecting from me pgm? I am a layperson on a forum, not a doctor. I'm supposed to do it all right? How dare I mention diet, supplements and chelation and only midly speak on pathogens because you have evaluated me and decided that I am bias or I am just not doing my bit or not enough.
I simply speak from my own experience and the things I've read. Outside of that? I'd be making things up. You are free to give the advice from what you've learned. As others are, that's what the forum is here for.
Excuse me, but the accummulated mercury poisoning needs to be chelated out, and it worked for me at that time (i needed to do it, my body retains metals/toxins badly, part of my make up I guess) and I see it working for others. You just continue to put it all down to pathogens and then bring up isolated events of those chelation didn't work on....What about all the ones it has helped? all pathogens huh? Suddenly you talk about mercury when chelation didn't help, but when it does help? then you put it all down to pathogens.
If you think it's ok to leave the mercury in the tissues/organs and brain and the body will just chelate it out naturally. That's up to you, but that is also bad advice for others, especially on here. However, many physicians, andy included know about the dangers of mercury being left as is, and feel it needs to be chelated out. Is that somehow...um...criminal to mention that on a mercury forum or something? IF this was a forum for pathogens, then it would be expected that one would know much more on the matter and be discussing that much more than mercury......
I got the mercury out of me with anything available because I was desperate to get it moving faster. It hurt at the time, but sped things up. Not just DMSA (though that worked well, but then again you have your own reasons why you think it works, which of course, surprise surprise, never has anything to do with mercury). I used other things too and they did cause a lot of symptoms and did eventually get the metals out. Pathogens included maybe. Whatever happened, I was getting well.
Pathogens are what I deal with now for sure and chelation never works on them at all, unless of course I've had a re-exposure to metals, then the chelation becomes of more use. Outside of that? It's useless on my yeast and useless on the infections. And that proves to me that it has been ineffective on me for every other case, OTHER than when I was metal toxic or have a re-exposure. If it was pathogen effective, I'd gain improvements from it much more now than then.
Pgm, if you want to use this forum for pathogen advice? You are welcome. I will continue to advocate what worked for me at the time of mercury toxicity, be it diet, supplements, chelation or whatever. Outside of that? I'm not going into an area I don't fully understand, perhaps others could do that?
Quote: Accumulative poison or not, the chelation therapies may not even be so effective, Ray Saarela mentioned on the amalgam list, that there was a guy who chelated alot, but died in cancer later, and the autopsy revealed still lots of mercury.
We don't know if it is or isn't in every case and it depends on what type of chelation it is, and how long the person keeps it up. IT takes a long time to get this stuff out, even with the ideal chelation protocol. You keep using isolated cases in attempts to poo poo mercury chelation and when something comes up that shows cases where it's been positive? Then you put it down to pathogens and nothing more.
Quote: A point I'm also trying to make is that you cant have both mercury and pathogens causing chronic diseases, immunopathologies (aka Herx), this is unacceptable. Metals and pathogens, they are something completely different. Because chronic diseases are seen with and without mercury, then it can't be mercury that is responsible for them, not at least directly. This is not to say that some people with MS are not harmed by mercury, but it is not mercury in itself that causes MS.
Hang on, because chronic diseases are seen with and without mercury, then it can't be mercury......how does this make any sense? Everybody is different and people are affected more by some things than others. I know people who have amalgams who are "ok", and others who can have one and get ill. Tolerance and sensitivities and ability to excrete toxins/metals may also come into it. OVerall immune status, many things could come into this. I don't think we can honestly know what exactly is causing what in every single person.
If people come onto a mercury toxic forum pgm, then they are usually expecting mercury related advice. I cannot believe you have actually called me bias because I talk about mercury more than anything on a mercury forum lol. I think it's funny. I should go onto a pathogen forum and accuse them of being bias and talking mostly about pathogens, but not enough on mercury.
Why should I, as a sick person, take up all my time and mention every possible issue in all it's detail to please everybody all at once, including you? and have you sit and evaluate me to see if I'm doing my job right? And then give me a commentary on what I'm missing, when I cannot possibly cover all things at onetime. Plus I'm not qualified to understand all things. I also cannot cover all the endocrine issues too, which some mention and talk about in more detail than I can. Perhaps I should be slapped over the hand for that side of it too? The fact I don't talk enough on adrenals or thyroid or pathogens and I'm just NOT doing my bit.
If you want big discussions on pathogens and the mercury to be pushed to the side, why don't you join a pathogen forum? That's what these forums are for, they are titled to let us know what the focus is. I am also on yeast forums and mainly the talk is about...."yeast" (surprise surprise). Different forums for different focusses. Doesn't mean people cannot discuss the other issues that maybe involved or may in some cases be the cause, but it seems a little silly to get on a mercury toxic forum and then accuse me of being bias because I'm focussed on mercury chelation, diet and supplements, rather than indepth pathogen discussions.
It's interesting you mention some of these things. I just found out that I had a severe lack of iodine in my diet (I had given up iodised salt and taken on just rock salt (natural sea salt). Don't get me wrong, natural salts are good and do not contain the anti caking agents that table salt does, etc. BUT, the damage from less iodine was much worse and did me more damage than the undesirables in iodised table salt. That's how important iodine is, though I'd recommend gaining it from sources that maybe a lot healthier than table salt. My hands are now warmer again since getting iodine back in. Though I have to be careful, iodine for me seems to cause detox/healing type symptoms and I can't honestly handle it for long. I have had to cut right down due to that. My body also cannot eliminate what's being stirred up and moved around, so therefore I have to take it easier.
And apparently celtic sea salt is a good thing to take for adrenals also. Some take it in their Vitamin C drinks, which apparently is one method used against lyme disease? The salt and C "cure". As well as whatever other benefits it would likely give.
I'm wary of colloidal silver because there are people who apparently have developed the skin discoloration associated with intake of colloidal silver (possibly too much and/or long term use). This is apparently irreversible once it happens and that's not something i'd be willing to take my chances on personally. Even if it's rare. Apparently this is where "blue bloods" got their name! (due to drinking out of silver cups and developing the same problem)....how true this is? I don't know, I was "told" this and have also read about the discolouration online. Though it's obviously got wonderful properties against infections (apparently), the idea of turning a bluish/greyish colour and staying that way isn't worth it to me. I have already gone grey in the face at onetime due to metal poisoning (and working in an aluminium factory). I literally turned grey. But at least it was temporary.
Not sure about the glutathione IV however. Some with mercury apparently can get far too many redistribution symptoms from it, as with cysteine and methionine etc. It does depend on the invidual I guess. Some can handle NAC though.
I've heard that no matter how one goes about it, it still takes years to come right many times post amalgam removal.....so you messed around for 4 years before figuring it out? During that time, it's still highly possible you were still getting some of these toxins out, because the most perfect protocol is going to take time. Admittedly a good one used early on should speed that up and make it much easier too.
I messed around for ages before figuring out Andy Cutler's was the one that suited me and finally got me right. I guess it's different for everybody. No one protocol is obviously going to be ideal in all situations. You can only hope it will help others as it helped you.
My test was nothing more than curiosity and yes, it may not be corrct. Personal experience indicates to me that I am correct after first doing Andy's ALA and then DMPS chelation protocols. If you really wanted to get into the mechanisms of excretion we're talking about something very complicated. I've been apart of discussion groups that have droned on about this for months on end.
You would have to take into account the excretion by ALA of Glutathione into the bile, and subsequently reducing the bodies ability to excrete heavy metals(Despite increasing glutathione output, LA (150 mumol/kg, iv) did not increase, but rather decreased, the biliary excretion of methylmercury, cadmium, Zinc, and copper, which are transported into bile in a glutathione-dependent manner, as indicated by a marked reduction in their biliary excretion after diethyl maleate-induced glutathione depletion). I remember huge arguments about this between Andy and a couple of other people about what was present in the body, inorganic or organic Hg and if it ever changed it's state from one to the other.
And then there is the reabsorbtion of Hg on it's journey through the intestines after it leaves the bile duct. Most of the experiments deal with testing the bile directly to see what is excreted. Then there is ALA's capacity to enter the brain and dump Hg in favor of Aluminum already present. Guess it depends on how much Al you have up there already. I know that for years I wondered why my blood tests for metals came back with Al of the charts.
The paper finishes (Summary) that:- The observations also raise the POSSIBILITY that endogenous dihydrolipoic acid, by forming a stable complex with mercuric ion, may play the role of a carrier molecule in the hepatobiliary transport of inorganic mercury.
Here is the paper that Andy was referring to:-
Effect of lipoic acid on biliary excretion of glutathione and metals.
Several metals are excreted in bile as glutathione complexes, and their biliary excretion is facilitated by increased hepatobiliary transport of glutathione. The present study analyzed the effect of lipoic acid (LA; thioctic acid; 37.5-300 mumol/kg, iv), an endogenous disulfide which can be reduced in vivo to a dithiol, on the hepatobiliary disposition of glutathione-related thiols and the biliary excretion of metals (10 mumol/kg, iv) in rats. Administration of LA enhanced the biliary excretion of reduced glutathione in a dose-dependent fashion. Despite increasing glutathione output, LA (150 mumol/kg, iv) did not increase, but rather decreased, the biliary excretion of methylmercury, cadmium, Zinc, and copper, which are transported into bile in a glutathione-dependent manner, as indicated by a marked reduction in their biliary excretion after diethyl maleate-induced glutathione depletion. In contrast, biliary excretion of inorganic mercury, which is minimally affected by glutathione depletion, was dramatically enhanced (12- to 37-fold) by LA administration. Following injection of LA, the concentrations of endogenous disulfides in arterial blood plasma (e.g., cystine, glutathione disulfide, cysteine-glutathione, protein-cysteine, and protein-glutathione mixed disulfides) were considerably diminished, while the levels of endogenous thiols (e.g., glutathione and cysteine) were increased. This finding indicates that LA, probably after enzymatic conversion to dihydrolipoic acid, can reduce endogenous disulfides to thiols. It appears that LA induces the transport of glutathione into bile by the temporary formation of dihydrolipoic acid-glutathione mixed disulfide, which after being translocated into bile is cleaved to LA and reduced glutathione. Because the glutathione molecule thus transported into bile cannot complex metals at the thiol group, this might be the mechanism for the observed failure of the LA-induced increase in biliary excretion of glutathione to enhance the hepatobiliary transport of metals that are transported into bile as glutathione complexes (i.e., methylmercury, cadmium, Zinc, and copper). The observations also raise the possibility that endogenous dihydrolipoic acid, by forming a stable complex with mercuric ion, may play the role of a carrier molecule in the hepatobiliary transport of inorganic mercury.
======================================================== Ultimately, this will only be solved when I come back here in 10, 15, 20... years and find you all still discussing ALA and whether it comes out more so in the biliary or urinary systems.
Even if the Hg comes out 5 times slower and not 10 as I found, then you're talking about 12.5 years. I wasn't willing to wait that long. And remember, the only chelation protocol I ever had problems with was Andy's.
If you like to read papers (Personally I hate to read exactly what they do to rats and Guinipigs). Then just a cursory search brings up all kinds of papers on this subject seems this one talks about excretion to the biliary system:-
Effect of various antidotes on the biliary and intestinal excretion of arsenic in situ and into the feces in vivo in guinea-pigs after injection of As2O3.
The effect of various antidotes on the excretion of arsenic into the feces in vivo and on the biliary and enteric excretion in situ was investigated on segments of jejunum and colon in anesthetized guinea-pigs using the pendular perfusion technique, according to Henning and Forth (1982). In the in situ experiments guinea-pigs received As2O3 (0.02 mmol As(III)/kg) and 30 min later, British-Anti-Lewisite (BAL), dimercaptopropanesulfonic acid (DMPS), dimercaptosuccinic acid (DMSA) or 2,3-bis-(acetylthio)propanesulfonamide (BAPSA) (0.1 or 0.7 mmol/kg each) into the jugular vein. In the in vivo experiments guinea-pigs received As2O3 s.c. (same dose as above) and 30 min later the same antidotes (0.1 mmol/kg i.p.). The feces were collected for 24 h and the arsenic content measured. During the 60-min perfusion period the amount of arsenic excreted into the jejunum or colon was only 3% or 0.4% of the dose administered, respectively. Of the arsenic dose, 8% was found in the bile. None of the antidotes had an effect on the arsenic excretion into the jejunum or colon. No change in biliary excretion was found in animals treated with BAL, 0.1 or 0.7 mmol/kg, respectively. DMSA, BAPSA or DMPS, 0.1 mmol/kg, increased the biliary excretion of arsenic to 14, 33, or 43% of the dose administered and after 0.7 mmol/kg to 29, 37, or 42%, respectively. Furthermore, a significant increase (P > 0.05) was found for the bile/blood concentration ratio in the following order: control < BAL < DMSA < BAPSA approximately DMPS.(ABSTRACT TRUNCATED AT 250 WORDS)
Regards. PS. I just found out about the personal message system here.
"So we have journal papers that say lipoic acid crosses the BBB, lipoic acid chelates mercury (and tons of other stuff), lipoic acid increases urinary and fecal excretion of mercury, lipoic acid is effective for treating mercury poisoning in a variety of mammals, lipoic acid prevents the pathological brain changes characteristic of mercury poisoning, and we have a bunch of adults who tried it and have had their neurological and centrally mediated endocrine symptoms cured. This set of facts leads me to conclude lipoic acid effectively chelates mercury out of the human brain. It is up to you what you make of it.
Errr, not so fast Andy, DMPS does not cross the BBB and I had massive releif of endocrine and neurological symptoms. Remember having a discussioon with the Doc about this. Would seem that once you start to bring the levels of Hg in the body way down, the body starts to shift the Hg out of the brains (higher concentration) to the body (now lower concentration of Hg). And it seems to this all by itself.
Quote: Even if the Hg comes out 5 times slower and not 10 as I found, then you're talking about 12.5 years. I wasn't willing to wait that long. And remember, the only chelation protocol I ever had problems with was Andy's
Sorry 40 years, but this doesn't begin to explain why people using his protocol are improving or getting well within 2 years or so. I was already getting well on his protocol just with DMSA alone within 2 years, even though I was only using it on and off, rather than as consistently or long term as most people do. I hadn't even used ALA. I felt well enough after DMSA at that time to feel I did not require anymore chelation or even moving onto ALA.
If someone however does not comply with his protocol and uses ALA too early, earlier than what he's suggested and gets a severe reaction? This is hardly his fault or the protocol's. If however, they use it just as suggested (timing and everything), then that's another story.
I would not dare use ALA close to a recent exposure of mercury OR too early after amalgam removal. I've done it before and it can be disastrous, just as Andy has mentioned and he's spot on. So I could hardly blame him for it when I chose to do it. I also used it once according to another doctor's instructions 200 mg, twice or more a day and had horrific results from that also.
I have had horrible results from DMPS IV as I've mentioned, yet others have reported it's made the world of difference to them. For me it was the beginning of a nightmare of uncontrollable mercury symptoms. Rashes from head to toe from then on. Took YEARS for the rashes to begin to subside.
Again different results from different protocols. Or perhaps the protocols are sometimes not applied as they should be (even DMPS IV In some cases, check out DMPS backfires).
Depends on how much Hg you have to begin with and how long you've had it. When you've had it for 40 years it seems to really hang on tightly. When I got a load of Hg from 9/11 it was much easier to get rid of, even thought this might be a case for using ALA but I went for the TDDMPS instead. No one is going to be able to tell you how much Hg you have, only what's coming out, and that is still not reletive to what your body load of Hg is.
Did the Marshall Prot before it was ever named such, nearly 20 years ago. I read the info on the site, it's very difficult to lookup the info on what they're up to. Also, they differentiate between us poor mortals and doctors, and I really hated them describing mercury as "A mild disinfectant"?????
Many, Many years ago I was seeing a young inexperienced doctor (Didn't spot a couple of clues I could have Hg poisoning). One of my urine tests came back with some white blood cells, this occurred once in a while. I also remember many times during my earlier life where taking Penicillin for various infections had made me feel much better, the mere fact I remember this is a testament to the affect. He sent me to Dr (Attilla) Toth, a very well respected doctor that has his own laboratories for identifying bacterial viruses and whatever else. He has a great setup. His offices are right next to the Sloane Kettering Hosp in New York. His basic theory is that these sub clinical infections are the root cause of infertility in couples. I went along and he tested a semen sample I donated. He went on to say that allot of these bacteria are generally called Chlamydia but that there are many types and that most people carry 2-4 different infections their whole life. They've even found them in people who have never had sex because they're infected by their Mothers in the birth canal. Anyway, he said they're not much of a problem and that the body usually ignores them. During sex it's possible for you to pick up an extra infection, and still nothing may happen, but at some point, maybe 4-5 infections (depends on your immune system), the body notices them and all hell breaks loose. He said they're extremely difficult to get rid of. I clearly was having a problem. His protocol was to essentially do the same as the Marshall prot, give tetracycline for months on end. One other interesting symptom, my right testicul ached (Epididymitis) off and on. This of course went away with months and months of tetrac'. Eventually I stopped (I think it was 6 months). Another doctor and 15 years later, another Dr sent me to Dr Toth. Again he did the tests and concluded that I had bacteria. He seems to have moved on in his theories because he was very interested to hear about Hg and told me that allot of the symptoms I was describing could be as a result of the Hg. I was at this point doing Chelation, but I didn’t really want to start taking Tetracycline again.
After hg removal, I no longer have the pain in my testicle or do I have white blood cells in my urine. I assume that the infections were only a problem for me so long as my immune system was suppressed from all the Hg. I think it would be a major mistake to do this Marshall plan first before getting rid of the Hg. How can U hope to get completely cured when a major part of getting cured is your immune system.
Reading the papers they quote, the adjuncts they use with their long term antibiotics seem to be very theoretical. I don’t think they’re doing anything that hasn’t been known for a very long time.
Regards. PS. Taking penicillin and feeling very much better turned out to be nothing to do with bacteria.
HI 40yrs, I had mercury toxicity from amalgams till I had them out by age 24. So 24 years worth of poisoning. Which isn't 40, but it's still a long time. I retain mercury. I hang onto it like a magnet. Which is why I believe I was bloated. Legs and all. After amalgams were removed, I seemed to lose weight almost immediately. I guess that was bloat.
But no chelation was easy for me at all. I just tried to speed it all up and often made myself too sick in the process, but anything to me was worth hurrying it up. In hindsight, i wished I had known a bit more about it!
I didn't bother with tests as much or took "too" much notice of them because I could feel what was happening to me when I was chelating regardless of testing. Detoxing was horrible, so yeah I was onto something for sure. I knew metals were coming out, but it took a few years to really start feeling better. During that time it was hellish to go through. Cutler's made it easier, but I don't believe there is any real short cut. Crippling yourself in the process just to get metals out just prolongs everything and then you have to wait to heal again.
Back then, with the mercury toxicity, I didn't have to be "as" strict on the diet that I do now and only had to focus mainly on chelation or just findings ways to get the metals out. Though I was very poisoned, I was much stronger then than now. I dropped metals much more easily too. Now? My body is took sick to really detox properly due to infections. So things have changed and changed for the worst. And chelation doesn't appear to give any real aid to me.
I'm now trying ALA again because I figure it there "is" brainmercury involved with not being able to heal or detox properly? Then maybe this will trial will let me know - worsening or improvement. But unfortunately I think I' tried ALA in the past and didn't notice anything. I just hoped and assumed the ALA may have been a bit past it's due by date! I hope that was the reason!
The cause of many chronic diseases is poisoning. I don't like that the marshall protocol people say things like bipolar are just pathogens. It's obvious that those things are caused by toxicity. How can they say amalgams are ok and do never cause disease while they treat mercury caused illness with their antibiotics protocol?
After reviewing this member's history, we have concluded that they were attempting to discredit our system with malice. They have been banned.
If you do chelation, especially DMPS/DMSA, the way those fools over on the dmpsbackfire site did chelation you are going to get sick and remain sick for along time. If you don't get good solid IV nutrients after (a day or so) getting chelation, you are going to get sick and remain sick for years. Remember, the half life of Hg in the brain is 26 years.
The type of vits and minerals I'm talking about is 10-20 grams of Vit C in your arm and all the minerals you can get your doc to put in, as well as methyl donors (he should have a good script for this). Just the Vit C is going to make you feel terrific. In fact, if you went out right now and got 10g in your arm you're going to feel great, that's because Vit C temporarily ameliorates the symptoms of Hg poisoning as well as dealing with the massive oxidant damage the Hg is producing.
Chelation is not easy for anyone, as I've said before, getting it out asap is your best option. However, minimizing the damage done is another top priority. The first 6 times I did DMPS I carried around a bottle of mega minerals I could take incase the chelation got too tiring (I was still working on Wall St while trying to do this).
"I didn't bother with tests as much or took "too" much notice of them". Shame on you! Did you know you could have a DMPS chelation (or other agents) and get a zero on a 24 hour urine test? What could go wrong....
Not enough sulphur in your diet can cause you to stop excreting heavy metals just by itself. No sulphur, no excretion. Do you have enough sulphur?
Using regular plastic bottles not the usual hardened brown bottles provided. Plastic sucks up the Hg from the urine in the bottle. Even with the hardened bottles you have to vigorously shake the urine, hopefully the technician knows to do this before he sends the sample to the lab.
You have to frequently test to get a trend of what is coming out. My first two results came back zero. However, the doctor (being experienced) noticed there wasn't any Zinc or Magnesium coming out either and he knew I had those present or I'd be dead.
Your results will not show a steady decline of excreted Hg. Mine dropped quickly to the 30's (mcg/L urine) and stayed there for the longest of times (I think a year?). Then suddenly dropped to the 15-20 range for months. then just as sudden the 8-10, then 5's. I was waiting for the zero's when 9/11 occurred. You see the trend but, you will get the odd result from time to time. This I think is the only way to know you are getting rid of Hg, not, I think I'm getting rid of Hg because I can feel it leaving. There was one guy I met in the doctors office that had an initial value 247 mcg, I asked if he could see streaks of silver when he went to the bathroom. but his results quickly went to zero within 6 months. There’s no way to know how much Hg you have, maybe, you have none.
If you start chelation, finish it or you’ll end up with innumerable new problems as you shift the Hg to other parts of your body, I don’t think there’s a way to stop this. This is another reason I don’t like ALA as it has the potential to move the Hg into the brain, DMPS does not, it doesn’t go there. For you to talk about ALA and Hg in your brain, just realize what you’re saying, and I know I’ve said this before. You have a Blood brain Barrier, it’s VERY sophisticated and even keeps, for the most part, Hg out of your brain. So, if you have lots of Hg, where is it going to be located? In your body. When you get the levels down in your body, the BBB seems to be able to excrete Hg to the body from your brain. But you have to get the levels down first. Then you can do ALA or cilantro if you want, not before.
You might start off with a general serum metal test. I had 3 of these over the years before I knew about Hg. This will tell you if Aluminium is a problem and if you’re currently (within the last 48 hours) being exposed to Hg. If Aluminium is a problem (mine was 4 times the high range) then ALA is potentially a problem because it will swap AL for Hg, it’s just chemistry…..
“I just hoped and assumed the ALA may have been a bit past it's due by date! I hope that was the reason!”, Again with the hoped for answer, you can’t hope yourself out of this problem. As my doctor said to me, get rid of the Hg and all the problems will go away as that is the root cause. Infections, nuttyness (Technical term), fatigue, rashes, relationships (problems with), the list is endless…… will go away. I keep meaning to make the list of symptoms I suffered from and the ones that went away….
Actually, I guess I didn’t make this very simple did I… I feel for you Bex, I was there for so long, wish I could help more, I just have my experience to give you, right or wrong…
By the way, TD DMPS looks good, tried some, it took away my heart arrhythmia.
Hello folks. I had 25 amalgam fillings, the last of which were replaced around 15 months ago. I did my first chelation using ALA only 3 months after the last amalgams were replaced. That made me crash badly after around 5 or so rounds, and I couldn't try chelating again for around 9 months. When I started chelating again, I used ALA plus DMSA. I have been increasing the dosages and managed to do over 10 rounds so far using ALA plus DMSA. I am now using 75 mg ALA plus 50 mg DMSA. I can only chelate for 3 days at a time though(2 nights) as my sleep is so messed up. I am trying to figure out a way to chelate without having to get up in the middle of the night. Anyone find a solution to this?
My body temperature has been running low(often 97.4 orally) and I am very intolerant to heat lately.I usually feel too hot. I felt so much better when my temperature was normal, however I can't seem to raise it. If I try to exercise even the slightest bit, my muscles get so achy, and I feel horrible and perspire like crazy. I need to figure out how to raise my body temperature. I tried taking high doses of iodine for a while, but stopped when I felt a slight bit of thyroid pain. Do I dare start taking the iodine again? I was taking around 15 mg a day of iodine. What else can I take to boost my metabolism?
JK, coconut oil can boost body temperature and thyroid function, and so can thyroid glandulars. I take a thyroid glandular called Raw thyroid (natural sources brand) and it works very very good for boosting my body temp, one capsule and I'm at normal temps. I got someone else with low body temp to take the same thyroid glandular and she was amazed, she felt so much warmer and more stable temperature wise.
JK are you vegetarian for health or moral reasons? Have you read what Hal Huggins said about it? In his decades of working with mercury toxic people and removing amalgam fillings he never had one person recover fully when they refused to eat meat.
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